Calculating the DC of a scroll [Archive] - Wizards Community

Calculating the DC of a scroll [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
brum
09-22-04, 09:37 PM When scribing a scroll how does one calculate the DC of the spell with regard of the scribers spellcasting-attribute?

Would a druid with WIS 22 scribe a Call Lightning spell with a DC of 19 (10+3+6) or would he use the lowest spellcasting-attribute needed for the spell, i.e. WIS 13?

Thanks for the help!
kSquared
09-22-04, 09:57 PM If you activate a scroll, the spell works just as if you'd cast it, except that it uses the scroll creator's caster level. In other words, any bonuses or penalties you'd normally apply to your spell DCs are applicable to scrolls. The scriber's ability scores, Spell Focus feats, et cetera are immaterial.

In your example, it wouldn't matter if the druid scribing the spell had 22 Wisdom or 13. The DC of the spell is based on the person reading the scroll, and the caster level is based on the person scribing the scroll. (Usually scrolls are scribed at the minimum caster level required unless the scriber wants to scribe it at a higher level.)
brum
09-22-04, 10:00 PM That makes perfect sense! :D
lparks
11-02-04, 08:39 PM The SRD says otherwise:

SAVING THROWS AGAINST MAGIC ITEM POWERS
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.
Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly).
Heron_Marked_Blade
11-02-04, 09:04 PM The DC of a scroll of call lightning would be 14 (10 + SL 3 + 1 mod [13 Wis]), regardless of who scribed it.
kSquared
11-02-04, 09:07 PM Uh. Wow. I can't believe I somehow got scrolls and staffs disturbingly mixed up... Apologies!
diaboli
11-03-04, 03:50 PM The DC of a scroll of call lightning would be 14 (10 + SL 3 + 1 mod [13 Wis]), regardless of who scribed it.

Unless the player's cleric with a Wisdom of 22 (+6) scribed the scroll.

Remeber that the items listed in the DMG use minimums for items purchased and/or randomly found/generated. They represent the typical item and are guidelines to provide a DM with a point of reference. The caster level and DCs do not account for player created items. Any item CREATED by a player will use the players ability modifier, at the time of creation, for any applicable DCs for anyone who uses the item, including the creator.
Zherog
11-03-04, 03:56 PM Incorrect. Look at the quote provided by lparks again.

SAVING THROWS AGAINST MAGIC ITEM POWERS
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.
Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly).

It's very explicit about what the saving throw DC is for items - and mentions the only exception is the staff.
Heron_Marked_Blade
11-03-04, 04:34 PM Also note that in item creation there is a mechanic that determines the caster level of an item, but no mechanic to indicate the extent of a caster's primary spellcasting stat. That's a pretty good indication that how powerful an attribute the item creator has is irrelevant. You can change the caster level of an item, but you can't change the casting attribute: it always uses the minimum attribute needed to cast the spell (except for the explicitly stated quality of staves).

And rightfully so, IMO. Item crafting can be confusing enough as it is without throwing in another modifier.
diaboli
11-03-04, 04:57 PM I beg to differ, about the attribute limitation. It unfairly punishes a spell caster with good stats who wishes to scribe scrolls.

Example:

Wizard 18 Int (+4 bonus)
Casts a fireball with a DC 17
Same spell cast from the scroll he just scribed the day prior, would only have a DC of 14. Treated as if his intellegence has dropped 4 points.

How is this fair?
Heron_Marked_Blade
11-03-04, 05:05 PM How is this fair?How is it fair to include the creator's attribute bonus in an item? How is that boost included in your item cost? A higher caster level tranlates into a higher creation cost. In in-game terms, how is that spellcaster's genius-level intellect transfered into the item?

Consider this to be Occam's Razor applied to item crafting: "One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything."
kSquared
11-03-04, 05:06 PM I beg to differ, about the attribute limitation. It unfairly punishes a spell caster with good stats who wishes to scribe scrolls.You might disagree, but that doesn't change what the rules say.

Wizard 18 Int (+4 bonus)
Casts a fireball with a DC 17
Same spell cast from the scroll he just scribed the day prior, would only have a DC of 14. Treated as if his intellegence has dropped 4 points.

How is this fair?Because:

you can scribe any spell you know to a scroll (9th level maximum), unlike wands (4th level maximum) and potions (3rd level maximum);
you can be adequately defended and prepared for any situation with the right mix of 4-5 scrolls;
you can use scrolls even when you have no spell slots remaining, unlike spells you normally memorize;
the scroll's user doesn't need material components;
It's a very fair tradeoff.
tarkin
11-03-04, 05:21 PM dupe post
tarkin
11-03-04, 05:22 PM Yes, the scroll is not supposed to be a good way to get a high stat spell cast.

If you want to take advantage of your high stat/levels/feats you must use a stave.

Scrolls are fairly priced assuming with the current rules where they use MINIMUM stats and no special feats.

You are allowed to scribe a scroll using a higher caster level, but that raises the price.
GoodTeletubby
11-03-04, 05:46 PM and heighten spell increases the save DC as well
Heron_Marked_Blade
11-03-04, 06:43 PM and heighten spell increases the save DC as well
Good point. Heighten Spell increases the save DC by adjusting the spell slot used to prepare the spell (part of the item creation formula) upward. In order for a magic item to use the creator's spellcasting attribute modifier, you'd have to add a third number to the item creation formula that represented the spellcasting attribute. But that would really complicate the issue.

It's not broken = No need to fix it.
kSquared
11-03-04, 07:38 PM The Heighten Spell feat isn't worth it on a scroll. You'll be paying out the nose just for a little extra DC. Scrolls work best for protective spells on yourself, or rainy-day things you rarely use but that come in immensely handy when you need them.
Heron_Marked_Blade
11-04-04, 11:28 AM I like scrolls of Rary's mnemonic enhancer, more for the extra slots than the retention of cast spells. I find it counterproductive to actually prepare that spell, but you can never have too many of those scrolls on hand. Particularly since there's nothing to indicate multiple castings don't stack....
Vharuck
11-04-04, 02:32 PM Actually, Heighten spell increases a scroll's DC pretty well. Say you use a Heightened Fireball as, I dunno, a level 8 spell. That increases the save DC by 5 for levels, but also increases the DC by 2 just because you need Int 18 (+4) instead of Int 13 (+2) to cast an 8th level Heightened Fireball. This makes the original Fireball scroll's DC 15 (lvl 3+2 int mod) and Heightened's DC 22 (lvl 8+4 mod). That's a 7 increase in DC. Still probably not as good as most 8th level spells, but a dang good Fireball.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
brum 09-22-04, 09:37 PM	When scribing a scroll how does one calculate the DC of the spell with regard of the scribers spellcasting-attribute? Would a druid with WIS 22 scribe a Call Lightning spell with a DC of 19 (10+3+6) or would he use the lowest spellcasting-attribute needed for the spell, i.e. WIS 13? Thanks for the help!
kSquared 09-22-04, 09:57 PM	If you activate a scroll, the spell works just as if you'd cast it, except that it uses the scroll creator's caster level. In other words, any bonuses or penalties you'd normally apply to your spell DCs are applicable to scrolls. The scriber's ability scores, Spell Focus feats, et cetera are immaterial. In your example, it wouldn't matter if the druid scribing the spell had 22 Wisdom or 13. The DC of the spell is based on the person reading the scroll, and the caster level is based on the person scribing the scroll. (Usually scrolls are scribed at the minimum caster level required unless the scriber wants to scribe it at a higher level.)
brum 09-22-04, 10:00 PM	That makes perfect sense! :D
lparks 11-02-04, 08:39 PM	The SRD says otherwise: SAVING THROWS AGAINST MAGIC ITEM POWERS Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC. Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly).
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-02-04, 09:04 PM	The DC of a scroll of call lightning would be 14 (10 + SL 3 + 1 mod [13 Wis]), regardless of who scribed it.
kSquared 11-02-04, 09:07 PM	Uh. Wow. I can't believe I somehow got scrolls and staffs disturbingly mixed up... Apologies!
diaboli 11-03-04, 03:50 PM	The DC of a scroll of call lightning would be 14 (10 + SL 3 + 1 mod [13 Wis]), regardless of who scribed it. Unless the player's cleric with a Wisdom of 22 (+6) scribed the scroll. Remeber that the items listed in the DMG use minimums for items purchased and/or randomly found/generated. They represent the typical item and are guidelines to provide a DM with a point of reference. The caster level and DCs do not account for player created items. Any item CREATED by a player will use the players ability modifier, at the time of creation, for any applicable DCs for anyone who uses the item, including the creator.
Zherog 11-03-04, 03:56 PM	Incorrect. Look at the quote provided by lparks again. SAVING THROWS AGAINST MAGIC ITEM POWERS Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC. Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly). It's very explicit about what the saving throw DC is for items - and mentions the only exception is the staff.
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-03-04, 04:34 PM	Also note that in item creation there is a mechanic that determines the caster level of an item, but no mechanic to indicate the extent of a caster's primary spellcasting stat. That's a pretty good indication that how powerful an attribute the item creator has is irrelevant. You can change the caster level of an item, but you can't change the casting attribute: it always uses the minimum attribute needed to cast the spell (except for the explicitly stated quality of staves). And rightfully so, IMO. Item crafting can be confusing enough as it is without throwing in another modifier.
diaboli 11-03-04, 04:57 PM	I beg to differ, about the attribute limitation. It unfairly punishes a spell caster with good stats who wishes to scribe scrolls. Example: Wizard 18 Int (+4 bonus) Casts a fireball with a DC 17 Same spell cast from the scroll he just scribed the day prior, would only have a DC of 14. Treated as if his intellegence has dropped 4 points. How is this fair?
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-03-04, 05:05 PM	How is this fair?How is it fair to include the creator's attribute bonus in an item? How is that boost included in your item cost? A higher caster level tranlates into a higher creation cost. In in-game terms, how is that spellcaster's genius-level intellect transfered into the item? Consider this to be Occam's Razor applied to item crafting: "One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything."
kSquared 11-03-04, 05:06 PM	I beg to differ, about the attribute limitation. It unfairly punishes a spell caster with good stats who wishes to scribe scrolls.You might disagree, but that doesn't change what the rules say. Wizard 18 Int (+4 bonus) Casts a fireball with a DC 17 Same spell cast from the scroll he just scribed the day prior, would only have a DC of 14. Treated as if his intellegence has dropped 4 points. How is this fair?Because: you can scribe any spell you know to a scroll (9th level maximum), unlike wands (4th level maximum) and potions (3rd level maximum); you can be adequately defended and prepared for any situation with the right mix of 4-5 scrolls; you can use scrolls even when you have no spell slots remaining, unlike spells you normally memorize; the scroll's user doesn't need material components; It's a very fair tradeoff.
tarkin 11-03-04, 05:21 PM	dupe post
tarkin 11-03-04, 05:22 PM	Yes, the scroll is not supposed to be a good way to get a high stat spell cast. If you want to take advantage of your high stat/levels/feats you must use a stave. Scrolls are fairly priced assuming with the current rules where they use MINIMUM stats and no special feats. You are allowed to scribe a scroll using a higher caster level, but that raises the price.
GoodTeletubby 11-03-04, 05:46 PM	and heighten spell increases the save DC as well
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-03-04, 06:43 PM	and heighten spell increases the save DC as well Good point. Heighten Spell increases the save DC by adjusting the spell slot used to prepare the spell (part of the item creation formula) upward. In order for a magic item to use the creator's spellcasting attribute modifier, you'd have to add a third number to the item creation formula that represented the spellcasting attribute. But that would really complicate the issue. It's not broken = No need to fix it.
kSquared 11-03-04, 07:38 PM	The Heighten Spell feat isn't worth it on a scroll. You'll be paying out the nose just for a little extra DC. Scrolls work best for protective spells on yourself, or rainy-day things you rarely use but that come in immensely handy when you need them.
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-04-04, 11:28 AM	I like scrolls of Rary's mnemonic enhancer, more for the extra slots than the retention of cast spells. I find it counterproductive to actually prepare that spell, but you can never have too many of those scrolls on hand. Particularly since there's nothing to indicate multiple castings don't stack....
Vharuck 11-04-04, 02:32 PM	Actually, Heighten spell increases a scroll's DC pretty well. Say you use a Heightened Fireball as, I dunno, a level 8 spell. That increases the save DC by 5 for levels, but also increases the DC by 2 just because you need Int 18 (+4) instead of Int 13 (+2) to cast an 8th level Heightened Fireball. This makes the original Fireball scroll's DC 15 (lvl 3+2 int mod) and Heightened's DC 22 (lvl 8+4 mod). That's a 7 increase in DC. Still probably not as good as most 8th level spells, but a dang good Fireball.