Call lightning. Line of sight? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Call lightning. Line of sight? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bringer of autumn
01-25-07, 01:53 PM Hello.

Me and my freind were battleing against each other last night. I'm a wizard and he was a druid. He cast call lightning on me, while I was behind a boulder. He did NOT have the line of sight to target me, but insisted that he could just call bolts down on me even though he couldn't see me.

Is he wrong?
CantripN
01-25-07, 01:57 PM Well, assuming he sees your square on any height, what he did was legal.
Bringer of autumn
01-25-07, 02:06 PM Well, assuming he sees your square on any height, what he did was legal.

We are on a flat plain, and he couldn't see me at all. So he could just acurately hit/target me without even seeing where I am on the other side of the massive boulder?
Vegepygmy
01-25-07, 02:09 PM Yes.

Effect: Some spells, such as summon monster spells, create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it (for example, “The insect plague will appear 20 feet into the area of darkness that the nagas are hiding in”). Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile (a summoned monster, for instance), it can move regardless of the spell’s range.Call lightning is an effect spell. Your friend just has to define where the effect is to appear; for example, "Behind that boulder."

(Note that there is an issue here with regard to line of effect, but only if the boulder is 30 feet tall or more. I assume that's not the case, and we don't need to get into that.)
Lafing Cat
01-25-07, 03:28 PM There is a question of Out of Character knowledge here however. If the boulder was more than 1 square (five feet) wide, he shouldn't automatically know which square to target, unless he has some means such as tremor sight to locate you non-visually. If he could see your position on a battle-mat or something, and was using that to automatically target you, thats unfair playing on his part, since his character doesn't have that information.
orionm42
01-25-07, 03:51 PM Yes.

Call lightning is an effect spell. Your friend just has to define where the effect is to appear; for example, "Behind that boulder."

(Note that there is an issue here with regard to line of effect, but only if the boulder is 30 feet tall or more. I assume that's not the case, and we don't need to get into that.)

I am not sure where 30 feet comes from. In my opinion, the boulder blocks the line of effect and prohibits him from designating the square as a target.

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.

Edit: I see where 30 feet comes from (the length of the bolt). See below.
CantripN
01-25-07, 03:57 PM Well, you see... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightning.htm

...The bolt of lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke at whatever target point you choose within the spell’s range (measured from your position at the time). Any creature in the target square or in the path of the bolt is affected...

So he doesn't have to see you, just know where you are, more or less.
orionm42
01-25-07, 03:58 PM Well, you see... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightning.htm

...The bolt of lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke at whatever target point you choose within the spell’s range (measured from your position at the time). Any creature in the target square or in the path of the bolt is affected...

So he doesn't have to see you, just know where you are, more or less.

I edited my post above. :)

I agree he can designate the square where the bolt originates, but if the stroke goes down vertically, the druid must choose a square directly above the square the mage is standing in. This would be difficult to ascertain, since the druid cannot see the mage.
CantripN
01-25-07, 04:16 PM I edited my post above. :)

I agree he can designate the square where the bolt originates, but if the stroke goes down vertically, the druid must choose a square directly above the square the mage is standing in. This would be difficult to ascertain, since the druid cannot see the mage.

That is correct. I assumed that the boulder is 5X5 and thus only hides 1 square.
orionm42
01-25-07, 04:22 PM That is correct. I assumed that the boulder is 5X5 and thus only hides 1 square.

Also, I don't have my books with me and I can't seem to find it in the SRD, but I assume line of effect is determined by drawing a straight line from any corner of your square to any corner of the target's square. As such, the boulder could block the line of effect even if it is less than 30 feet tall.
journeyman777
01-25-07, 04:34 PM As such, the boulder could block the line of effect even if it is less than 30 feet tall.Except that he doesn't need line of effect to that square, he only needs line of effect to a point above it. It's basically the same as aiming a fireball behind and to the left by one square. The spell's area will still include the person you actually want to hit. (you only need line of effect to the origin of the spell, the origin of the spell needs line of effect to the person you want to hurt. A 30ft tall boulder would block line of effect from you to any origin point within 30 vertical feet of the person behind it. A 5ft tall boulder won't block line of effect from the caster to a point even 10ft above the intended target, so a 30ft vertical bolt will still hit.)
orionm42
01-25-07, 04:40 PM Except that he doesn't need line of effect to that square, he only needs line of effect to a point above it. It's basically the same as aiming a fireball behind and to the left by one square, the spell's area will still include the person you actually want to hit.

First, call lighting is different from fireball. Fireball spreads to fill the area, whereas call lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke. So you need to hit the square exactly above the square the mage is standing in.

Second, if the boulder is 25 feet tall, and the mage is standing in a square 15 feet behind the boulder, the boulder will block the line of effect from the druid to the square above the mage (edit: assumes the mage and druid are both standing on the ground).
journeyman777
01-25-07, 04:52 PM First, call lighting is different from fireball. Fireball spreads to fill the area, whereas call lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke. So you need to hit the square exactly above the square the mage is standing in.Fireball fills a 20ft shere, call lightening fills a 30ft pillar, neither one requires the caster to have line of effect to every single square the bolt will effect. You do indeed need to hit the square exactly above the intended target. However, the OP just said he was hiding behind a boulder, so we are assuming he was in the square directly behind a 5x5x5 boulder. That makes targeting of the proper square not only possible, but fairly easy.

Second, if the boulder is 25 feet tall, and the mage is standing in a square 15 feet behind the boulder, the boulder will block the line of effect from the druid to the square above the mage.An excellent hypothetical example. It just isn't the one we are assuming to be the case. I responded to the post immediately above mine in an effort to clarify that this involves more than one line of effect (line from caster to origin and line from origin to the person who got hit, not a single line from the caster to the person who got hit).
CantripN
01-25-07, 04:52 PM Nevermind...
orionm42
01-25-07, 04:56 PM Also, nevermind.
orionm42
01-25-07, 05:10 PM However, the OP just said he was hiding behind a boulder, so we are assuming he was in the square directly behind a 5x5x5 boulder. That makes targeting of the proper square not only possible, but fairly easy.

One last point here. If the druid is standing on the gound immediately next to the boulder and if I am correct about line of effect being drawn from any corner of the caster's square to any corner of the target's square, I do not think it is possible to target a square above the wizard even if the boulder was only 5X5X5.

This is because any line drawn from the base of the druid's square adjacent to the boulder would need to pass through the square containing the boulder to target any square on the other side.

How's that for confusing (and perhaps entirely wrong)!! :D

Edit: I don't remember if the caster can choose any corner of his square for determining line of effect. If he can choose any corner, he can obviously pick a top corner. Hence, he would be OK going over a 5X5X5 boulder.
journeyman777
01-25-07, 05:31 PM I think a line from the back corner of the druid's square to a near corner of the target square would work if it was more than 20ft up, but I make a policy of not doing trig if I can help it. So :shrug:
orionm42
01-25-07, 05:36 PM I think a line from the back corner of the druid's square to a near corner of the target square would work if it was more than 20ft up, but I make a policy of not doing trig if I can help it. So :shrug:

I normally don't get too worked up about it either. But I guess I was trying to give the OP a strict RAW interpretation. It seems as though positioning of both characters, height of the boulder, exact location of the target square, etc. can make a difference in determining whether or not the druid's actions were technically permissible.

So, to make a long story short, I guess my answer to the OP's question...

Is he wrong?

...is, "Maybe, or maybe not." ;)
risner
01-25-07, 06:00 PM Edit: I don't remember if the caster can choose any corner of his square for determining line of effect. If he can choose any corner, he can obviously pick a top corner. Hence, he would be OK going over a 5X5X5 boulder.

Yes, you choose.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bringer of autumn 01-25-07, 01:53 PM	Hello. Me and my freind were battleing against each other last night. I'm a wizard and he was a druid. He cast call lightning on me, while I was behind a boulder. He did NOT have the line of sight to target me, but insisted that he could just call bolts down on me even though he couldn't see me. Is he wrong?
CantripN 01-25-07, 01:57 PM	Well, assuming he sees your square on any height, what he did was legal.
Bringer of autumn 01-25-07, 02:06 PM	Well, assuming he sees your square on any height, what he did was legal. We are on a flat plain, and he couldn't see me at all. So he could just acurately hit/target me without even seeing where I am on the other side of the massive boulder?
Vegepygmy 01-25-07, 02:09 PM	Yes. Effect: Some spells, such as summon monster spells, create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it (for example, “The insect plague will appear 20 feet into the area of darkness that the nagas are hiding in”). Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile (a summoned monster, for instance), it can move regardless of the spell’s range.Call lightning is an effect spell. Your friend just has to define where the effect is to appear; for example, "Behind that boulder." (Note that there is an issue here with regard to line of effect, but only if the boulder is 30 feet tall or more. I assume that's not the case, and we don't need to get into that.)
Lafing Cat 01-25-07, 03:28 PM	There is a question of Out of Character knowledge here however. If the boulder was more than 1 square (five feet) wide, he shouldn't automatically know which square to target, unless he has some means such as tremor sight to locate you non-visually. If he could see your position on a battle-mat or something, and was using that to automatically target you, thats unfair playing on his part, since his character doesn't have that information.
orionm42 01-25-07, 03:51 PM	Yes. Call lightning is an effect spell. Your friend just has to define where the effect is to appear; for example, "Behind that boulder." (Note that there is an issue here with regard to line of effect, but only if the boulder is 30 feet tall or more. I assume that's not the case, and we don't need to get into that.) I am not sure where 30 feet comes from. In my opinion, the boulder blocks the line of effect and prohibits him from designating the square as a target. Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin). An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect. Edit: I see where 30 feet comes from (the length of the bolt). See below.
CantripN 01-25-07, 03:57 PM	Well, you see... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightning.htm ...The bolt of lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke at whatever target point you choose within the spell’s range (measured from your position at the time). Any creature in the target square or in the path of the bolt is affected... So he doesn't have to see you, just know where you are, more or less.
orionm42 01-25-07, 03:58 PM	Well, you see... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightning.htm ...The bolt of lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke at whatever target point you choose within the spell’s range (measured from your position at the time). Any creature in the target square or in the path of the bolt is affected... So he doesn't have to see you, just know where you are, more or less. I edited my post above. :) I agree he can designate the square where the bolt originates, but if the stroke goes down vertically, the druid must choose a square directly above the square the mage is standing in. This would be difficult to ascertain, since the druid cannot see the mage.
CantripN 01-25-07, 04:16 PM	I edited my post above. :) I agree he can designate the square where the bolt originates, but if the stroke goes down vertically, the druid must choose a square directly above the square the mage is standing in. This would be difficult to ascertain, since the druid cannot see the mage. That is correct. I assumed that the boulder is 5X5 and thus only hides 1 square.
orionm42 01-25-07, 04:22 PM	That is correct. I assumed that the boulder is 5X5 and thus only hides 1 square. Also, I don't have my books with me and I can't seem to find it in the SRD, but I assume line of effect is determined by drawing a straight line from any corner of your square to any corner of the target's square. As such, the boulder could block the line of effect even if it is less than 30 feet tall.
journeyman777 01-25-07, 04:34 PM	As such, the boulder could block the line of effect even if it is less than 30 feet tall.Except that he doesn't need line of effect to that square, he only needs line of effect to a point above it. It's basically the same as aiming a fireball behind and to the left by one square. The spell's area will still include the person you actually want to hit. (you only need line of effect to the origin of the spell, the origin of the spell needs line of effect to the person you want to hurt. A 30ft tall boulder would block line of effect from you to any origin point within 30 vertical feet of the person behind it. A 5ft tall boulder won't block line of effect from the caster to a point even 10ft above the intended target, so a 30ft vertical bolt will still hit.)
orionm42 01-25-07, 04:40 PM	Except that he doesn't need line of effect to that square, he only needs line of effect to a point above it. It's basically the same as aiming a fireball behind and to the left by one square, the spell's area will still include the person you actually want to hit. First, call lighting is different from fireball. Fireball spreads to fill the area, whereas call lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke. So you need to hit the square exactly above the square the mage is standing in. Second, if the boulder is 25 feet tall, and the mage is standing in a square 15 feet behind the boulder, the boulder will block the line of effect from the druid to the square above the mage (edit: assumes the mage and druid are both standing on the ground).
journeyman777 01-25-07, 04:52 PM	First, call lighting is different from fireball. Fireball spreads to fill the area, whereas call lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke. So you need to hit the square exactly above the square the mage is standing in.Fireball fills a 20ft shere, call lightening fills a 30ft pillar, neither one requires the caster to have line of effect to every single square the bolt will effect. You do indeed need to hit the square exactly above the intended target. However, the OP just said he was hiding behind a boulder, so we are assuming he was in the square directly behind a 5x5x5 boulder. That makes targeting of the proper square not only possible, but fairly easy. Second, if the boulder is 25 feet tall, and the mage is standing in a square 15 feet behind the boulder, the boulder will block the line of effect from the druid to the square above the mage.An excellent hypothetical example. It just isn't the one we are assuming to be the case. I responded to the post immediately above mine in an effort to clarify that this involves more than one line of effect (line from caster to origin and line from origin to the person who got hit, not a single line from the caster to the person who got hit).
CantripN 01-25-07, 04:52 PM	Nevermind...
orionm42 01-25-07, 04:56 PM	Also, nevermind.
orionm42 01-25-07, 05:10 PM	However, the OP just said he was hiding behind a boulder, so we are assuming he was in the square directly behind a 5x5x5 boulder. That makes targeting of the proper square not only possible, but fairly easy. One last point here. If the druid is standing on the gound immediately next to the boulder and if I am correct about line of effect being drawn from any corner of the caster's square to any corner of the target's square, I do not think it is possible to target a square above the wizard even if the boulder was only 5X5X5. This is because any line drawn from the base of the druid's square adjacent to the boulder would need to pass through the square containing the boulder to target any square on the other side. How's that for confusing (and perhaps entirely wrong)!! :D Edit: I don't remember if the caster can choose any corner of his square for determining line of effect. If he can choose any corner, he can obviously pick a top corner. Hence, he would be OK going over a 5X5X5 boulder.
journeyman777 01-25-07, 05:31 PM	I think a line from the back corner of the druid's square to a near corner of the target square would work if it was more than 20ft up, but I make a policy of not doing trig if I can help it. So :shrug:
orionm42 01-25-07, 05:36 PM	I think a line from the back corner of the druid's square to a near corner of the target square would work if it was more than 20ft up, but I make a policy of not doing trig if I can help it. So :shrug: I normally don't get too worked up about it either. But I guess I was trying to give the OP a strict RAW interpretation. It seems as though positioning of both characters, height of the boulder, exact location of the target square, etc. can make a difference in determining whether or not the druid's actions were technically permissible. So, to make a long story short, I guess my answer to the OP's question... Is he wrong? ...is, "Maybe, or maybe not." ;)
risner 01-25-07, 06:00 PM	Edit: I don't remember if the caster can choose any corner of his square for determining line of effect. If he can choose any corner, he can obviously pick a top corner. Hence, he would be OK going over a 5X5X5 boulder. Yes, you choose.