Call Zelekhut...is it broken? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Call Zelekhut...is it broken? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Monster_Jam
02-06-06, 04:56 PM For 100XP you can call a Zelekhut (Inevitable) to perform a task for you that may last no longer then 1 hour. I have problems with this spell at a variety of levels:

1) Combat-wise, it puts almost every other summonable monster (Level 5) to shame with its high AC and ability to fly.
2) Adventuring-wise, it has many spell-like abilities that ruin any kind of surprise the DM may have for the party in a dungeon or what-have-you. Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, Dispel Magic, Locate Other/Object, and I'm missing others, but these abilities are AT WILL.
3) No limit on the number you can call, no limit on what this "task" should be.
4) It lasts for an hour. Summon it right before you enter a dungeon (or right after) and your on easy street.

Someone help me to see the light. Not only did I outlaw the spell (the one and only spell I have ever put in moritorium) and other Call spells like it, but the player who cast the spell was in total agreement with my decision. Why is this spell balanced? :confused:
stamhaven
02-06-06, 06:18 PM I think you need to b a bit more restrictive with what constitutes a "task" and definitiely not "help my party for an hour" they're sentient lawful neutral robots that be extremely literalist with their limits of their mandate. Not evil and out to screw the summoner like a devil would but just in no way overly generous. Compare it to summon Planar Ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm) spells:

Cleric 4 LPA 100xp +100gp/HD or +500gp/HD and can get up to 6HD outsiders
Cleric 6 PA 250xp +100gp/HD or +500gp/HD and can get up to 12 HD outsiders/elementals
Cleric 8 GPA 500xp +100gp/HD or +500gp/HD and can get up to 18HD outsiders

Notice that none of those spells has a CR limit allowing for some spectacular called monsters. All of the calling spells have FAR more power than the summoning spells of the same level. The big difference is that with summoning spells you've pretty much got total controll of the creature but with called creatures they are fulfilling a bargain in their own way. The call inevitable spells I see as less powerful despite their lack of GP costs than their corresponding Planar ally spells (which are each far more flexible if slightly more costly). The Zelekhut spell is the most efficient for the resources in my opinion since it's quite efficient for his HD in abilities and at that level the GP cost of the planar ally spells. If the cost of the higher level planar ally spells had an increasing rate per HD then I think the Marut and Kolyrut calling spells would be more appealing. The spell level s are one higher on each of the ineviteble sommons too.

Some noteworthy outsiders (elementals are low CR for their HD so seldom called I've found): Bralani, Hound Archon, Succubus, 6 HD; Astral Deva, Leonal, Barbed Devil, Glabrezu 12 HD, Planetar 14 HD, Maralith 16 HD, Pit Fiend 18 HD

Zelekhut 8HD CR 9, Kolyarut 13 HD CR 12, and Marut 15 HD CR 15 also HP to CR on the Zelekhut is the best ratio in the bunch (the called allies almost all have better HP since they get constitution conuses, often large). Basically if you stayed away through my rambling reply I'd say Zelehut is a strong calling choice at that level (though not overpowered) while the other two are actually weak compared to what's availible through the more mundane versions.
Bloodtide_the_Red
02-07-06, 12:26 AM Call Zelekhut can only summon one creature and that creature can only do one task. So that puts it at more of a 6th level monster, then a 5th. After all, with summon monster 5, you get a whole list of creatures to pick from. If you were to make a spell that only summoned one fifth level monster, it would be one level lower then the 'summon anything' spell. Note that it's also weaker then both Planar Ally and Planar Binding, that can both summon up to 12 HD.

Then there is the one task line. It looks like your taking that to be 'is your slave for one hour', but it does not say that. One task that can take up to an hour. Once you have it do anything, it's gone. And you can't even change what it does...it will only do one thing.

Now sure you can get away with 'stay with me and protect me' or such...but without direct control it may not do exactly what you want. And only it gets to use it's spell like abilites, not the caster.

In all it's a balanced 5th level spell.

BT
ubernex
02-07-06, 03:22 AM Then there is the one task line. It looks like your taking that to be 'is your slave for one hour', but it does not say that. One task that can take up to an hour. Once you have it do anything, it's gone. And you can't even change what it does...it will only do one thing.
This is pretty key. Sure the Zelekhut has some nice abilities, but it doesn't mean that the party gets access to them. The critter is called in to do a particular job. It might be "defeat my enemies," or "get us inside this fort." It's not "do my bidding for the next hour"

If you call one of these things to open a door for you, that it. If you still need its help after that you've got to call again. Just like most spells, quite usefull when used at the right time and in the right way, but I don't see anything overpowering about it considering the other planar ally type spells out there.
Monster_Jam
02-07-06, 11:18 AM The Zelekhut spell is the most efficient for the resources in my opinion since it's quite efficient for his HD in abilities and at that level the GP cost of the planar ally spells.

That is exactly why I think its broken. The Planar Ally spells require a considerable amount of cash on hand - I've never had a player consider using the Planar Ally spell be it 3.0 or 3.5. but I can tell you this: the Call Inevitable spell series will become the most popular form of summoning (yes, I know its technicaly not a summons - its better) and will be used at every opportunity.

Not to flame, but I'm just not "feeling it" (the arguments for the spell).

I'm going to allow the spell, but I'm going to make it very specific in its operation, and in some cases, may even require a diplomacy check. By the way, how does a "called" creature return to its original plane, and lets say the Zelekhut does not agree to the casters terms...how does he get back pre-maturely?
stamhaven
02-07-06, 12:06 PM If you feel it's too strong, then I recomend curtailing what tasks they're willing to perform, keeping in mind their purpose Zelekhuts are charged with hunting down those who would deny justice—especially those who flee to escape punishment. Expert trackers, they use a combination of natural skill and magic to find fugitives wherever they may hide. Have it refuse to do things that don't align with it's purpose. For balance considerations also keep in mind it's got a 10 minute casting time... tactically useless... and if you have it refuse a task (suicidal, against their ethics/programing, etc.) I'd probably charge the spell slot but not the XP (I see that as the payment they extract for the task and if the offer/task is refosed payment is not given... all part of the 10 minute casting time). Another option if you still feel it's overpowered is to charge GP per HD like the normall planar ally spells (or hike the xp cost to account fothe GP it would normally take at a rate of 5gp per xp exchanged).

What level are your players by the way, is it a low/high/normal wealth campaign?
Monster_Jam
02-07-06, 03:11 PM Thanks for the advice everyone….I’m going to strictly limit the spell to do only exactly what a Zelekhut would do. Unfortunately for me (the DM) the player called forth one to do nearly its description: find a creature somewhere in a dungeon (although this person was not a fugitive). I think the exact wording of the task was “Help us locate <NPC>.” He didn’t fight, and the PC didn’t expect him to. He wasn’t friendly, and the PC didn’t expect him to be. Again, the player casting the spell was reasonable, it was just me left doing the head-scratching.

Although the spell is tacticlly useless, it is seemingly strategically indispensable.

I don’t think I will increase the XP cost or make the PC pay in gold, but I will charge the 100XP even if the Inevitable refuses the task; this will make using the spell somewhat risky if you try to use it out of the scope of its intent.

By the way, you didn’t cover how the called creature would return to its plane prematurely; this is an important aspect. Do you know anything about that?

We are playing normal wealth campaign (Dungeon Magazine’s Age of Worms, in fact) and players are 12th level (average).
stamhaven
02-07-06, 05:21 PM SRD Magic Overview:Calling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling)

Basically they get a free ride back, a "one time ability to return". Sounds like they're not abusing it hardly at all so it might not be a big deal, in that case they got effectively a locate creature (a 4th level wiz/sor spell) spell at the cost of 100xp , 10 minuts and a 5th level spell slot. It's a much much more limited wish basically caried out by a creature with a finite ammount of power. What level is the party? As far as versitility is concerned high level sommoning/calling for getting access to free other spells is a general strength of that school. I see plenty of people summon hound archons, janni, Osyluth, Avorals, Bralani, Babau, and Djini for free spell variety,

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Monster_Jam 02-06-06, 04:56 PM	For 100XP you can call a Zelekhut (Inevitable) to perform a task for you that may last no longer then 1 hour. I have problems with this spell at a variety of levels: 1) Combat-wise, it puts almost every other summonable monster (Level 5) to shame with its high AC and ability to fly. 2) Adventuring-wise, it has many spell-like abilities that ruin any kind of surprise the DM may have for the party in a dungeon or what-have-you. Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, Dispel Magic, Locate Other/Object, and I'm missing others, but these abilities are AT WILL. 3) No limit on the number you can call, no limit on what this "task" should be. 4) It lasts for an hour. Summon it right before you enter a dungeon (or right after) and your on easy street. Someone help me to see the light. Not only did I outlaw the spell (the one and only spell I have ever put in moritorium) and other Call spells like it, but the player who cast the spell was in total agreement with my decision. Why is this spell balanced? :confused:
stamhaven 02-06-06, 06:18 PM	I think you need to b a bit more restrictive with what constitutes a "task" and definitiely not "help my party for an hour" they're sentient lawful neutral robots that be extremely literalist with their limits of their mandate. Not evil and out to screw the summoner like a devil would but just in no way overly generous. Compare it to summon Planar Ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm) spells: Cleric 4 LPA 100xp +100gp/HD or +500gp/HD and can get up to 6HD outsiders Cleric 6 PA 250xp +100gp/HD or +500gp/HD and can get up to 12 HD outsiders/elementals Cleric 8 GPA 500xp +100gp/HD or +500gp/HD and can get up to 18HD outsiders Notice that none of those spells has a CR limit allowing for some spectacular called monsters. All of the calling spells have FAR more power than the summoning spells of the same level. The big difference is that with summoning spells you've pretty much got total controll of the creature but with called creatures they are fulfilling a bargain in their own way. The call inevitable spells I see as less powerful despite their lack of GP costs than their corresponding Planar ally spells (which are each far more flexible if slightly more costly). The Zelekhut spell is the most efficient for the resources in my opinion since it's quite efficient for his HD in abilities and at that level the GP cost of the planar ally spells. If the cost of the higher level planar ally spells had an increasing rate per HD then I think the Marut and Kolyrut calling spells would be more appealing. The spell level s are one higher on each of the ineviteble sommons too. Some noteworthy outsiders (elementals are low CR for their HD so seldom called I've found): Bralani, Hound Archon, Succubus, 6 HD; Astral Deva, Leonal, Barbed Devil, Glabrezu 12 HD, Planetar 14 HD, Maralith 16 HD, Pit Fiend 18 HD Zelekhut 8HD CR 9, Kolyarut 13 HD CR 12, and Marut 15 HD CR 15 also HP to CR on the Zelekhut is the best ratio in the bunch (the called allies almost all have better HP since they get constitution conuses, often large). Basically if you stayed away through my rambling reply I'd say Zelehut is a strong calling choice at that level (though not overpowered) while the other two are actually weak compared to what's availible through the more mundane versions.
Bloodtide_the_Red 02-07-06, 12:26 AM	Call Zelekhut can only summon one creature and that creature can only do one task. So that puts it at more of a 6th level monster, then a 5th. After all, with summon monster 5, you get a whole list of creatures to pick from. If you were to make a spell that only summoned one fifth level monster, it would be one level lower then the 'summon anything' spell. Note that it's also weaker then both Planar Ally and Planar Binding, that can both summon up to 12 HD. Then there is the one task line. It looks like your taking that to be 'is your slave for one hour', but it does not say that. One task that can take up to an hour. Once you have it do anything, it's gone. And you can't even change what it does...it will only do one thing. Now sure you can get away with 'stay with me and protect me' or such...but without direct control it may not do exactly what you want. And only it gets to use it's spell like abilites, not the caster. In all it's a balanced 5th level spell. BT
ubernex 02-07-06, 03:22 AM	Then there is the one task line. It looks like your taking that to be 'is your slave for one hour', but it does not say that. One task that can take up to an hour. Once you have it do anything, it's gone. And you can't even change what it does...it will only do one thing. This is pretty key. Sure the Zelekhut has some nice abilities, but it doesn't mean that the party gets access to them. The critter is called in to do a particular job. It might be "defeat my enemies," or "get us inside this fort." It's not "do my bidding for the next hour" If you call one of these things to open a door for you, that it. If you still need its help after that you've got to call again. Just like most spells, quite usefull when used at the right time and in the right way, but I don't see anything overpowering about it considering the other planar ally type spells out there.
Monster_Jam 02-07-06, 11:18 AM	The Zelekhut spell is the most efficient for the resources in my opinion since it's quite efficient for his HD in abilities and at that level the GP cost of the planar ally spells. That is exactly why I think its broken. The Planar Ally spells require a considerable amount of cash on hand - I've never had a player consider using the Planar Ally spell be it 3.0 or 3.5. but I can tell you this: the Call Inevitable spell series will become the most popular form of summoning (yes, I know its technicaly not a summons - its better) and will be used at every opportunity. Not to flame, but I'm just not "feeling it" (the arguments for the spell). I'm going to allow the spell, but I'm going to make it very specific in its operation, and in some cases, may even require a diplomacy check. By the way, how does a "called" creature return to its original plane, and lets say the Zelekhut does not agree to the casters terms...how does he get back pre-maturely?
stamhaven 02-07-06, 12:06 PM	If you feel it's too strong, then I recomend curtailing what tasks they're willing to perform, keeping in mind their purpose Zelekhuts are charged with hunting down those who would deny justice—especially those who flee to escape punishment. Expert trackers, they use a combination of natural skill and magic to find fugitives wherever they may hide. Have it refuse to do things that don't align with it's purpose. For balance considerations also keep in mind it's got a 10 minute casting time... tactically useless... and if you have it refuse a task (suicidal, against their ethics/programing, etc.) I'd probably charge the spell slot but not the XP (I see that as the payment they extract for the task and if the offer/task is refosed payment is not given... all part of the 10 minute casting time). Another option if you still feel it's overpowered is to charge GP per HD like the normall planar ally spells (or hike the xp cost to account fothe GP it would normally take at a rate of 5gp per xp exchanged). What level are your players by the way, is it a low/high/normal wealth campaign?
Monster_Jam 02-07-06, 03:11 PM	Thanks for the advice everyone….I’m going to strictly limit the spell to do only exactly what a Zelekhut would do. Unfortunately for me (the DM) the player called forth one to do nearly its description: find a creature somewhere in a dungeon (although this person was not a fugitive). I think the exact wording of the task was “Help us locate <NPC>.” He didn’t fight, and the PC didn’t expect him to. He wasn’t friendly, and the PC didn’t expect him to be. Again, the player casting the spell was reasonable, it was just me left doing the head-scratching. Although the spell is tacticlly useless, it is seemingly strategically indispensable. I don’t think I will increase the XP cost or make the PC pay in gold, but I will charge the 100XP even if the Inevitable refuses the task; this will make using the spell somewhat risky if you try to use it out of the scope of its intent. By the way, you didn’t cover how the called creature would return to its plane prematurely; this is an important aspect. Do you know anything about that? We are playing normal wealth campaign (Dungeon Magazine’s Age of Worms, in fact) and players are 12th level (average).
stamhaven 02-07-06, 05:21 PM	SRD Magic Overview:Calling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#calling) Basically they get a free ride back, a "one time ability to return". Sounds like they're not abusing it hardly at all so it might not be a big deal, in that case they got effectively a locate creature (a 4th level wiz/sor spell) spell at the cost of 100xp , 10 minuts and a 5th level spell slot. It's a much much more limited wish basically caried out by a creature with a finite ammount of power. What level is the party? As far as versitility is concerned high level sommoning/calling for getting access to free other spells is a general strength of that school. I see plenty of people summon hound archons, janni, Osyluth, Avorals, Bralani, Babau, and Djini for free spell variety,