Calm emotions & confusion question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Calm emotions & confusion question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grimbold
06-04-04, 09:16 AM I had a big discussion with my players again last night concerning confused characters and their will save vs. a calm emotions spell cast on them.

Here is the spell text:

Calm Emotions
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Law 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Creatures in a 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, as well as negating a bard’s ability to inspire courage or a barbarian’s rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.

Here are the questions:

Does "automatically suppress" mean that there is no save against the loss of morale boni, fear and confused condition?

If that were the case, why does it say "will negates" at all?

Or, if the "will negates" was only meant for the first paragraph (calms agitated creatures etc.), why doesn´t it say "will negates (partial)" or "will negates (see below)"?

On the other hand, if there was -as written- a will save vs. this spell, confused characters (being confused) would not forgo their save on purpose (unless they were "acting normally this round"), would they?
glenw77
06-04-04, 10:15 AM After thinking long and hard about this spell I have come to this conclusion:

The lack of Will partial leads me to beleive that its an all or nothing spell.

The term "automatically supress" is weird and requires some thought because they could just say "supress" and have the same effect. That initially lead me to think they mean it does not require a saving throw but that is not conceptually sound (either the spell gets though and you are unemotional or it does not and your are emotional) and if so they would say something along the lines of "Will partial", as you pointed out.

So I thought more on in and I have come to the conclusion that what they mean by the term "automatically suppress" is that they are trying to emphasize that, unlike many spells who go back and forth on who is better ( if one spell gives a +3 moral bonus and another gives a -2 moral penalty you end up with +1 as per " Spells with Opposite Effects"), that calm emotions, once in effect automatically negates any spell that gives "emotional" modifiers regardless of level or stregth and also regardless of when cast on the individual for the duration of the calm emotions spell.

There is very tricky wording in the spell though, this is only my humble opinion.
Grimbold
06-05-04, 06:14 AM Thanks, glenw, for your thoughts.

Two more questions, though:

1. Would those targets under the effect of a confusion spell try to make their will saves ( I would say yes)?

2. Does this spell really stop fights? Let´s say you had a group of paladins fighting some demons. Now someone casts this spell. By pure chance, ALL combatants fail their saves. Would they really stop fighting and sit down and talk about their differences?
:confused:
glenw77
06-05-04, 02:11 PM Calm Emotions
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Law 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Creatures in a 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures.
This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, as well as negating a bardâ??s ability to inspire courage or a barbarianâ??s rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime.

Alright, easy answer to #2. YES it will stop a fight. The spell does not say that it "does not affect creatuers already in combat" nor does it really say anything about any restriction on targets other than it being a Compulsion, Mind Controlling spell that only targets Creatures. Now, it goes on to say that "Creatures cannot take Violent actions" so yes, creatures in combat, hit by the spell, will stop doing things to damage anything or potentially even leading to the damaging of things (like loading a ballista, though this is based on DM interpretation).

Maybe they will talk, maybe they won't (the paladins might find the demons smelly :)). But they will not have the drive to fight one another, they cannot build up the emotional drive to commit such intense actions. Just treat everyone like they are laid back, but remember that even intense positive emotions are restricted. It would be a realy weird role playing experience between a Demon and a paladin under the effect of the spell. Because they wont only not pound eachother, they will also not scream at eachother over their differences or even feel stongly about their differences.

#1

Confusion
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Trickery 4
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: All creatures in a 15-ft. radius burst
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell causes the targets to become confused, making them unable to independently determine what they will do.

Roll on the following table at the beginning of each subject's turn each round to see what the subject does in that round.
d% Behavior
01-10 Attack caster with melee or ranged weapons (or close with caster if attack is not possible).
11-20 Act normally.
21-50 Do nothing but babble incoherently.
51-70 Flee away from caster at top possible speed.
71-100 Attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject's self).
A confused character who can't carry out the indicated action does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking a confused character. Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. Note that a confused character will not make attacks of opportunity against any creature that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked).
Arcane Material Component: A set of three nut shells.

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell?s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

So the problem is that they do not give enough data to answer this 100% yes or no. You have to make a delaration abou the actual effect of the spell and the answer comes from that.

If you declair that when confused the characters have no control over themselves if they are anything but "Act Normally (in which case they could actvily choose to fail their save)" then I would say no becuase they do not have the mental wherewithal to do so.

IF you decide that the players have control over there faculties in any of the above options (other than needing to perform the declaired action), then yes (for instance, the character must spend two move actions to flee from the caster but, being otherwise unaffected he would see that his friend Bob the Bard is casting a spell at him and would decide normally if he wants to be hit by the spell). There is the following exceptions though. If they are to attack the closest person, and the caster of calm emotions is the closest person, I would say that the confused views this character as a foe and as such he would definily resist anything coming from said foe.

Some would argue that Babbling characters do not have the mental capabilites to resist spells, but because it states that attackers have no special advantages against them, they must have all their saves as well, so that are not sitting around giving up saves willy nilly though.

One final thing, if you decide that confused charcters are not in control of their faculites and confused individual is hit by a calm emotions spell but makes his save againt the calm emotions spell, and he understands that it came from the caster, he will likely consider this an attack by the caster and attempt to attack the caster on his next turn.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grimbold 06-04-04, 09:16 AM	I had a big discussion with my players again last night concerning confused characters and their will save vs. a calm emotions spell cast on them. Here is the spell text: Calm Emotions Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Law 2 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: Creatures in a 20-ft.-radius spread Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures. This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, as well as negating a bard’s ability to inspire courage or a barbarian’s rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime. Here are the questions: Does "automatically suppress" mean that there is no save against the loss of morale boni, fear and confused condition? If that were the case, why does it say "will negates" at all? Or, if the "will negates" was only meant for the first paragraph (calms agitated creatures etc.), why doesn´t it say "will negates (partial)" or "will negates (see below)"? On the other hand, if there was -as written- a will save vs. this spell, confused characters (being confused) would not forgo their save on purpose (unless they were "acting normally this round"), would they?
glenw77 06-04-04, 10:15 AM	After thinking long and hard about this spell I have come to this conclusion: The lack of Will partial leads me to beleive that its an all or nothing spell. The term "automatically supress" is weird and requires some thought because they could just say "supress" and have the same effect. That initially lead me to think they mean it does not require a saving throw but that is not conceptually sound (either the spell gets though and you are unemotional or it does not and your are emotional) and if so they would say something along the lines of "Will partial", as you pointed out. So I thought more on in and I have come to the conclusion that what they mean by the term "automatically suppress" is that they are trying to emphasize that, unlike many spells who go back and forth on who is better ( if one spell gives a +3 moral bonus and another gives a -2 moral penalty you end up with +1 as per " Spells with Opposite Effects"), that calm emotions, once in effect automatically negates any spell that gives "emotional" modifiers regardless of level or stregth and also regardless of when cast on the individual for the duration of the calm emotions spell. There is very tricky wording in the spell though, this is only my humble opinion.
Grimbold 06-05-04, 06:14 AM	Thanks, glenw, for your thoughts. Two more questions, though: 1. Would those targets under the effect of a confusion spell try to make their will saves ( I would say yes)? 2. Does this spell really stop fights? Let´s say you had a group of paladins fighting some demons. Now someone casts this spell. By pure chance, ALL combatants fail their saves. Would they really stop fighting and sit down and talk about their differences? :confused:
glenw77 06-05-04, 02:11 PM	Calm Emotions Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Law 2 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: Creatures in a 20-ft.-radius spread Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell calms agitated creatures. You have no control over the affected creatures, but calm emotions can stop raging creatures from fighting or joyous ones from reveling. Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive. Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures. This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, as well as negating a bardâ??s ability to inspire courage or a barbarianâ??s rage ability. It also suppresses any fear effects and removes the confused condition from all targets. While the spell lasts, a suppressed spell or effect has no effect. When the calm emotions spell ends, the original spell or effect takes hold of the creature again, provided that its duration has not expired in the meantime. Alright, easy answer to #2. YES it will stop a fight. The spell does not say that it "does not affect creatuers already in combat" nor does it really say anything about any restriction on targets other than it being a Compulsion, Mind Controlling spell that only targets Creatures. Now, it goes on to say that "Creatures cannot take Violent actions" so yes, creatures in combat, hit by the spell, will stop doing things to damage anything or potentially even leading to the damaging of things (like loading a ballista, though this is based on DM interpretation). Maybe they will talk, maybe they won't (the paladins might find the demons smelly :)). But they will not have the drive to fight one another, they cannot build up the emotional drive to commit such intense actions. Just treat everyone like they are laid back, but remember that even intense positive emotions are restricted. It would be a realy weird role playing experience between a Demon and a paladin under the effect of the spell. Because they wont only not pound eachother, they will also not scream at eachother over their differences or even feel stongly about their differences. #1 Confusion Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Trickery 4 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Targets: All creatures in a 15-ft. radius burst Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell causes the targets to become confused, making them unable to independently determine what they will do. Roll on the following table at the beginning of each subject's turn each round to see what the subject does in that round. d% Behavior 01-10 Attack caster with melee or ranged weapons (or close with caster if attack is not possible). 11-20 Act normally. 21-50 Do nothing but babble incoherently. 51-70 Flee away from caster at top possible speed. 71-100 Attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject's self). A confused character who can't carry out the indicated action does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking a confused character. Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. Note that a confused character will not make attacks of opportunity against any creature that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked). Arcane Material Component: A set of three nut shells. Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell?s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality. So the problem is that they do not give enough data to answer this 100% yes or no. You have to make a delaration abou the actual effect of the spell and the answer comes from that. If you declair that when confused the characters have no control over themselves if they are anything but "Act Normally (in which case they could actvily choose to fail their save)" then I would say no becuase they do not have the mental wherewithal to do so. IF you decide that the players have control over there faculties in any of the above options (other than needing to perform the declaired action), then yes (for instance, the character must spend two move actions to flee from the caster but, being otherwise unaffected he would see that his friend Bob the Bard is casting a spell at him and would decide normally if he wants to be hit by the spell). There is the following exceptions though. If they are to attack the closest person, and the caster of calm emotions is the closest person, I would say that the confused views this character as a foe and as such he would definily resist anything coming from said foe. Some would argue that Babbling characters do not have the mental capabilites to resist spells, but because it states that attackers have no special advantages against them, they must have all their saves as well, so that are not sitting around giving up saves willy nilly though. One final thing, if you decide that confused charcters are not in control of their faculites and confused individual is hit by a calm emotions spell but makes his save againt the calm emotions spell, and he understands that it came from the caster, he will likely consider this an attack by the caster and attempt to attack the caster on his next turn.