Campaign without Polymorph and related Spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Campaign without Polymorph and related Spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thelon Fairblade
10-17-05, 09:26 AM Would there be a serious imbalance to game rules if the polymorph line of spells were simply removed from the spell lists? (I asked about the change to druids in the class forum, so leave that thought out of answers here, for simplicity.) The setting of the campaign has a background concept that changing something's (or someone's!) form changes its nature as well. IF you polymorph the fighter into an ogre, he will become an ogre; if shapechange yourself into a war troll, you will become a war troll!

At the most, I am figuring that Baleful Polymorph is still probably a valid spell -- you really do change your target into a sheep (WoW reference), frog, monkey, or whatever.

Would this really be an issue? Seems (to me) like there are plenty of other spells and other options out there that removal of this spell line would be okay. Comments? Differing opinions? I would prefer not to hear comments like "But I love polymorph", although I expect those responses will appear anyway; rather I am looking for reasoned responses about why it is a gimp, or why it won't really change things.
Archtyrant Terevoth
10-17-05, 02:19 PM The polymorph spells are a serious imbalance to game rules.

Removing them can only make things better, not worse.

It will have a profound effect on game balance, but it will be a very positive effect. I've removed polymorph from some of my games before, and it has always turned out to be a good choice.
Elgonn
10-17-05, 02:41 PM I wouldn't suggest completely removing them. They have valid and useful utilitarian effects that the wizard/druid (biggest users) will lose to their detriment. Just remove any sort of combat form and it will be virtually impossible to abuse them (like a limit of only animals of 5 HD or less period). But you'll still keep their flavor around.

In regards to the campaign world's theme though? Everyone can live with their loss. Feel free to get rid of them. The campaign world's continuity is more important than a couple spell effects.
Kendrick
10-17-05, 03:35 PM I think this would be a significant nerf for wizards and even worse for sorcerers.

If you think that the arcane spellcasters are already overpowered, you might consider it a change towards balance. If you think that the spellcasters are already well balanced, you should consider coming up with some multiple use spells that could replace some of the utility.

Either way, you should cut it out if it's important for your campaign conceptually. Just be aware that when you do so you've just hurt your spellcasters and you may need to give them something to compensate.
strumbleduck
10-17-05, 04:18 PM How about changing them so they do basically the same combat things but with different flavor?

Change alter self to a personal spell that grants a +6 natural armor bonus for 10 minutes/level. You could have a different 2nd level spell that grants a swim speed and/or a climb speed.

Change polymorph to a buff spell that:
1. Changes someone's size to "Large", including gear.
2. Gives them a +5 natural armor bonus, and
3. Gives them a +8 enhancement bonus to Str and Con.
This is about as powerful for combat as polymorphing someone into a troll, but they won't BE a troll.
Elgonn
10-17-05, 04:23 PM Change alter self to a personal spell that grants a +6 natural armor bonus for 10 minutes/level.

You can't really change Alter Self. A huge amount of abilities are based on it as the root of their functionality (not just spells). The biggest use of that spell is disguise. Not really natural armor/movement speeds.

But otherwise yes you can very easily manipulate the poly series into a combatesque buff with a selection of choices.
strumbleduck
10-17-05, 05:22 PM You can't really change Alter Self. A huge amount of abilities are based on it as the root of their functionality (not just spells). The biggest use of that spell is disguise. Not really natural armor/movement speeds.

Yeah, my suggestion doesn't really allow for the disguise uses. How about adding a 2nd level illusion spell that covers these? Something like:

Disguise Self, Greater
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
As disguise self, but includes tactile (touch) and audible (sound) properties for you, though not for your equipment. A creature can only make a Will save against this glamer if he has some strong reason to suspect you are not as you appear (e.g. he notices the illusion aura with a detect magic spell).

Maybe it should be an hour/level spell to help make up for the nerfing?
Elgonn
10-17-05, 06:03 PM Really needs to be transmutation. Not an illusion. But spells aren't the biggest worry when changing Alter Self/Poly.

Dopplegangers, Wild Shape, Alter Form (monster ability), Silver Dragons, etc all use a combination of the two as a reference. Annoyingly far reaching repercussions even just editing a single sentence of say Alter Self.
tiercel
10-17-05, 06:08 PM I don't think druid wildshape is as much a problem as the polymorph spells, because the wildshapes are limited to animals. As long as your druid can't just use 3.0 wild clasps to have the same set of equipment as everyone else, the animal forms are good, but not wildly overpowering.

One of the troubles I have with polymorph is that if you stick to humanoid-ish forms, it is strictly a large AND pure upgrade -- you don't lose access to any equipment, and just get better physical abilities, size increase, natural armor bonus, weapon proficiencies, etc. It is a very strong choice for a pure mage to use as a defensive buff upon himself (or to even turn himself into a temporary melee combatant). It is even stronger when used upon other members of the party, or when a fighter/mage multiclass uses it upon himself. As you get to higher levels of play, increasingly the entire party is transformed into some sort of giant-form for any important battle.

If there were a 4th level spell just called trollform that polymorphed you into a troll, it would be an extremely strong spell -- but polymorph accomplishes much, much more than this.

Much of the time alter self is used as a "+6 AC" 10 min/level buff, with added benefits. A 2nd level spell that only gave +6 natural armor would still be extremely strong, perhaps too strong. Alter self: troglodyte does more than this, and alter self has other uses than the canonical trog combat form as well.

Polymorph any object is so wide open that it's hard to tell what you can reasonably do with this spell -- at least theoretically, you could change a pebble into the Tarrasque in the middle of a major city for a 20-minute rampage and then teleport away. Repeat until no civilization remains.

Shapechange? "I win." Especially with outsider forms. Oy vey.

As much as I like the general idea of shapechanging magic, I'm not so sure that a campaign that completely excised these spells would be lacking for much other than shapechanging cheese. Taking these spells away from mages is a nerf in the sense that taking 3.0 haste away was a nerf -- they do just fine without the gross excesses provided by these spells.
Kendrick
10-17-05, 07:46 PM Really needs to be transmutation. Not an illusion. But spells aren't the biggest worry when changing Alter Self/Poly.

Dopplegangers, Wild Shape, Alter Form (monster ability), Silver Dragons, etc all use a combination of the two as a reference. Annoyingly far reaching repercussions even just editing a single sentence of say Alter Self.
Yeah, but there's no reason he can't use the original alter self and polymorph as a reference, while making them unavailable to players. It's a house rule. Saying that the players can't cast it doesn't mean he has to erase everything about the spell from his campaign.
Thelon Fairblade
10-18-05, 09:12 AM Kendrik is right - I'm not taking the "nothing changes shape" stance. In fact, this rule concept is something that will emphasize (for example) why lycanthropes are unstable psychotics (sorry, no friendly werebears or weretigers), and why doppelgangers are terrifyingly competent when assuming the target's form...

A quasit changing into a beetle... well, it's a demonic outsider who's very presence is a violation of the rules of nature. :D

(There aren't any silver dragons, but if there were, a silver dragon in human form would be "limited" by a human's intellect, and would likely need reminders about its true draconic nature. Sounds like a quest-opp to me!)

Regarding the spells: a couple good points were raised about some of the utility options the spells offered (outside their combat capabilities). while I'm not at all upset to see "+6 natural armor" disappear (considering barkskin gives a whopping +2 at the same level), removing "swim like a fish" or "climb like a monkey" might be an issue. I might redefine the alter self spell to be more like the UA's druidic aspects... gaining webbed hands and feet, plus gills, is okay -> becoming a merfolk is not; gaining naturally sticky and grasping feet and hands (i.e. climb speed) is okay -> becoming a dire ape is not.

"Disguise Self, Greater" is a good solution to the disguise aspect, too.

Turning "Polymorph" into "Combat Buff".... isn't that what Tenser's Transformation is all about?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thelon Fairblade 10-17-05, 09:26 AM	Would there be a serious imbalance to game rules if the polymorph line of spells were simply removed from the spell lists? (I asked about the change to druids in the class forum, so leave that thought out of answers here, for simplicity.) The setting of the campaign has a background concept that changing something's (or someone's!) form changes its nature as well. IF you polymorph the fighter into an ogre, he will become an ogre; if shapechange yourself into a war troll, you will become a war troll! At the most, I am figuring that Baleful Polymorph is still probably a valid spell -- you really do change your target into a sheep (WoW reference), frog, monkey, or whatever. Would this really be an issue? Seems (to me) like there are plenty of other spells and other options out there that removal of this spell line would be okay. Comments? Differing opinions? I would prefer not to hear comments like "But I love polymorph", although I expect those responses will appear anyway; rather I am looking for reasoned responses about why it is a gimp, or why it won't really change things.
Archtyrant Terevoth 10-17-05, 02:19 PM	The polymorph spells are a serious imbalance to game rules. Removing them can only make things better, not worse. It will have a profound effect on game balance, but it will be a very positive effect. I've removed polymorph from some of my games before, and it has always turned out to be a good choice.
Elgonn 10-17-05, 02:41 PM	I wouldn't suggest completely removing them. They have valid and useful utilitarian effects that the wizard/druid (biggest users) will lose to their detriment. Just remove any sort of combat form and it will be virtually impossible to abuse them (like a limit of only animals of 5 HD or less period). But you'll still keep their flavor around. In regards to the campaign world's theme though? Everyone can live with their loss. Feel free to get rid of them. The campaign world's continuity is more important than a couple spell effects.
Kendrick 10-17-05, 03:35 PM	I think this would be a significant nerf for wizards and even worse for sorcerers. If you think that the arcane spellcasters are already overpowered, you might consider it a change towards balance. If you think that the spellcasters are already well balanced, you should consider coming up with some multiple use spells that could replace some of the utility. Either way, you should cut it out if it's important for your campaign conceptually. Just be aware that when you do so you've just hurt your spellcasters and you may need to give them something to compensate.
strumbleduck 10-17-05, 04:18 PM	How about changing them so they do basically the same combat things but with different flavor? Change alter self to a personal spell that grants a +6 natural armor bonus for 10 minutes/level. You could have a different 2nd level spell that grants a swim speed and/or a climb speed. Change polymorph to a buff spell that: 1. Changes someone's size to "Large", including gear. 2. Gives them a +5 natural armor bonus, and 3. Gives them a +8 enhancement bonus to Str and Con. This is about as powerful for combat as polymorphing someone into a troll, but they won't BE a troll.
Elgonn 10-17-05, 04:23 PM	Change alter self to a personal spell that grants a +6 natural armor bonus for 10 minutes/level. You can't really change Alter Self. A huge amount of abilities are based on it as the root of their functionality (not just spells). The biggest use of that spell is disguise. Not really natural armor/movement speeds. But otherwise yes you can very easily manipulate the poly series into a combatesque buff with a selection of choices.
strumbleduck 10-17-05, 05:22 PM	You can't really change Alter Self. A huge amount of abilities are based on it as the root of their functionality (not just spells). The biggest use of that spell is disguise. Not really natural armor/movement speeds. Yeah, my suggestion doesn't really allow for the disguise uses. How about adding a 2nd level illusion spell that covers these? Something like: Disguise Self, Greater Illusion (Glamer) Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 As disguise self, but includes tactile (touch) and audible (sound) properties for you, though not for your equipment. A creature can only make a Will save against this glamer if he has some strong reason to suspect you are not as you appear (e.g. he notices the illusion aura with a detect magic spell). Maybe it should be an hour/level spell to help make up for the nerfing?
Elgonn 10-17-05, 06:03 PM	Really needs to be transmutation. Not an illusion. But spells aren't the biggest worry when changing Alter Self/Poly. Dopplegangers, Wild Shape, Alter Form (monster ability), Silver Dragons, etc all use a combination of the two as a reference. Annoyingly far reaching repercussions even just editing a single sentence of say Alter Self.
tiercel 10-17-05, 06:08 PM	I don't think druid wildshape is as much a problem as the polymorph spells, because the wildshapes are limited to animals. As long as your druid can't just use 3.0 wild clasps to have the same set of equipment as everyone else, the animal forms are good, but not wildly overpowering. One of the troubles I have with polymorph is that if you stick to humanoid-ish forms, it is strictly a large AND pure upgrade -- you don't lose access to any equipment, and just get better physical abilities, size increase, natural armor bonus, weapon proficiencies, etc. It is a very strong choice for a pure mage to use as a defensive buff upon himself (or to even turn himself into a temporary melee combatant). It is even stronger when used upon other members of the party, or when a fighter/mage multiclass uses it upon himself. As you get to higher levels of play, increasingly the entire party is transformed into some sort of giant-form for any important battle. If there were a 4th level spell just called trollform that polymorphed you into a troll, it would be an extremely strong spell -- but polymorph accomplishes much, much more than this. Much of the time alter self is used as a "+6 AC" 10 min/level buff, with added benefits. A 2nd level spell that only gave +6 natural armor would still be extremely strong, perhaps too strong. Alter self: troglodyte does more than this, and alter self has other uses than the canonical trog combat form as well. Polymorph any object is so wide open that it's hard to tell what you can reasonably do with this spell -- at least theoretically, you could change a pebble into the Tarrasque in the middle of a major city for a 20-minute rampage and then teleport away. Repeat until no civilization remains. Shapechange? "I win." Especially with outsider forms. Oy vey. As much as I like the general idea of shapechanging magic, I'm not so sure that a campaign that completely excised these spells would be lacking for much other than shapechanging cheese. Taking these spells away from mages is a nerf in the sense that taking 3.0 haste away was a nerf -- they do just fine without the gross excesses provided by these spells.
Kendrick 10-17-05, 07:46 PM	Really needs to be transmutation. Not an illusion. But spells aren't the biggest worry when changing Alter Self/Poly. Dopplegangers, Wild Shape, Alter Form (monster ability), Silver Dragons, etc all use a combination of the two as a reference. Annoyingly far reaching repercussions even just editing a single sentence of say Alter Self. Yeah, but there's no reason he can't use the original alter self and polymorph as a reference, while making them unavailable to players. It's a house rule. Saying that the players can't cast it doesn't mean he has to erase everything about the spell from his campaign.
Thelon Fairblade 10-18-05, 09:12 AM	Kendrik is right - I'm not taking the "nothing changes shape" stance. In fact, this rule concept is something that will emphasize (for example) why lycanthropes are unstable psychotics (sorry, no friendly werebears or weretigers), and why doppelgangers are terrifyingly competent when assuming the target's form... A quasit changing into a beetle... well, it's a demonic outsider who's very presence is a violation of the rules of nature. :D (There aren't any silver dragons, but if there were, a silver dragon in human form would be "limited" by a human's intellect, and would likely need reminders about its true draconic nature. Sounds like a quest-opp to me!) Regarding the spells: a couple good points were raised about some of the utility options the spells offered (outside their combat capabilities). while I'm not at all upset to see "+6 natural armor" disappear (considering barkskin gives a whopping +2 at the same level), removing "swim like a fish" or "climb like a monkey" might be an issue. I might redefine the alter self spell to be more like the UA's druidic aspects... gaining webbed hands and feet, plus gills, is okay -> becoming a merfolk is not; gaining naturally sticky and grasping feet and hands (i.e. climb speed) is okay -> becoming a dire ape is not. "Disguise Self, Greater" is a good solution to the disguise aspect, too. Turning "Polymorph" into "Combat Buff".... isn't that what Tenser's Transformation is all about?