Can a bow be shock and shocking burst? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a bow be shock and shocking burst? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Farland
10-23-04, 10:56 AM Can a bow be both shock and shocking burst at the same time, so that it shocks on normal hits and shocking bursts on a crit?
kSquared
10-23-04, 11:14 AM A shocking burst weapon *is* a shock weapon. You get all the benefits of shock in addition to more damage on a critical hit.

Shocking Burst: A shocking burst weapon functions as a shock weapon that also explodes with electricity upon striking a successful critical hit. [...]
MythDragon
10-23-04, 11:17 AM Yes it can if it is "Shocking Burst" then it has both functions.

Shock on normal hit(damage +1d6)

Shock burst on crit.(damage+1d6 +1d10)
MetalGemini
10-23-04, 01:12 PM Depending on how you read the rules, you can stack the same special abilities on a weapon multiple times. Shock + Shocking burst would be an example of this. So damage would be +2d6 electricity and bonus on crits.

Otherwise, it seems to be a general house rule that if you have a shock weapon (+1 enhancement) and want to make it a shocking burst (+2 enhancement) weapon, you only need to pay the additional +1 cost b'c shocking burst already incorporates the shock part of it.
kSquared
10-23-04, 01:27 PM I wouldn't allow a weapon like a +2 flaming flaming longsword (+4 total) or a +1 shocking shocking burst longsword (+4 total). It would be equivalent to having multiple haste spells on your or multiple mage armor spells. The benefits are all from the same source, so they wouldn't stack.
Seeker95
10-23-04, 01:50 PM I allow energy weapon stacking at the same price rules.

+1 flaming (+2 equivalent) = 8,000gp (+1d6 fire)
+1 flaming, shocking (+3 equivalent) = 18,000gp (+1d6 fire, +1d6 electricity)
+1 flaming, flaming (+3 equivalent) = 18,000gp (+2d6 fire)
+1 flaming, flaming burst (+4 equivalent) = 32,000gp (+2d6 fire / +1d6 fire +1d10 fire on a crit)

I have no problem with someone doing +3d6 fire damage instead of +1d6 fire +1d6 cold +1d6 electricity damage. The risk is that your expensive fire weapon is now useless against all creatures immune to fire, while the equally expensive multiple energy effect weapon is simply "less effective" against many more creatures.
Farland
10-23-04, 05:19 PM Whoops, sorry. I hadn't noticed that shocking burst is also shocking. Sorry to waste time.
Seeker95
10-23-04, 07:18 PM Whoops, sorry. I hadn't noticed that shocking burst is also shocking. Sorry to waste time.Not a waste of time at all. The ramifications of such a question are larger than the question itself. Here are just a few of them:

1. Can you stack energy effects?
2. Can you stack the same energy effects?
3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"?

Lastly, as an aside, I would add that I find the burst enhancements a complete waste. Spending +2 enhancement for a 5-20% chance (per swing) for a second d10 of damage seems wimpy in comparison to spending the same amount of money for a guaranteed extra 1d6 energy damage on a successful hit.
MetalGemini
10-23-04, 07:25 PM Not a waste of time at all. The ramifications of such a question are larger than the question itself. Here are just a few of them:

1. Can you stack energy effects?
2. Can you stack the same energy effects?
3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"?

These questions are covered in other threads. Try a search for answers if you really feel like pursuing it further.
Seeker95
10-23-04, 10:13 PM MetalGemini, I find your reply mildly amusing.
Are you claiming that Farland's question was a waste of time?
Or are you claiming that my questions are irrelevant to the thread?
Or are you claiming that my questions are a waste of your time?
Lastly, did you fail to read the entire post, or just ignore the context in which the questions were asked?
Votan
10-23-04, 10:20 PM Not a waste of time at all. The ramifications of such a question are larger than the question itself. Here are just a few of them:

1. Can you stack energy effects?
2. Can you stack the same energy effects?
3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"?

Lastly, as an aside, I would add that I find the burst enhancements a complete waste. Spending +2 enhancement for a 5-20% chance (per swing) for a second d10 of damage seems wimpy in comparison to spending the same amount of money for a guaranteed extra 1d6 energy damage on a successful hit.

I agree that the burst option is sub-par. It is the only good reason I can find agaisnt stacking energy enhancements is that a double fire enhancement is better than a flaming burst enhancement (by a fair amount, actually).
bitnine
10-23-04, 11:12 PM 1. Can you stack energy effects?
2. Can you stack the same energy effects?
3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"?Heh. I want to stack other abilities.

My +1 humanbane humanbane humanbane bow is going to totally rock. ;)
Beamup
10-23-04, 11:38 PM 1. Can you stack energy effects?
2. Can you stack the same energy effects?
3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"?
I'll make an attempt at explaining how I would answer these and why.

1. Sure, why not? If you're paying for both, then you might as well get both so long as they're different. If there's a +2 enhancement that grants a weapon a permanent (never turns off, unlike Flaming) 1d12 of Fire damage, I see no reason you couldn't use it together with Flaming.

2. Strictly by RAW, yes. It is possible to generate, for example, a +2 Flaming Flaming sword using the DMG random generation tables. There is no general note that you would ignore a second generation of the same ability (such a note is made only on the "roll twice" entries) and such a weapon would end up a +4 equivalent. So apparently they stack. BUT, IMO this makes no sense and probably wasn't considered by the authors - particularly in fact that the "roll twice" entries DO have that note - so I would houserule that it cannot be done (and reroll such randomly generated items).

3. Again, according to the random generation tables it's possible. But it makes no sense since the burst abilities contain the non-bursting ability already. So again I would houserule that it cannot be done.
Keenath
10-24-04, 02:35 AM By the RAW, you can certainly stack elemental effects. In my campaigns, it's extremely depricated. I'll get with my players and do everything I can to avoid having more than one elemental enchantment. I have no particular problem with, say, a flaming shocking longsword, but it gets bizarre when you have a flaming freezing greataxe. I mean, how does that even WORK? So I try to just avoid the problem and suggest that they get a different enchantment.

I would say you can't stack abilities with the same name, for the same reason you can't benefit from two simultaneous castings of Mage Armor. It may not be explicitly written out in the stacking rules that they apply to weapon enchantments, but IMC they do.

Stacking related elemental enchantments... that's a harder sell. Why not a freezing icy burst mace? This is really just an extention of the first question -- as far as I'm concerned, you can't, but by the rules as written, it's not outlawed.
Master Agnald
10-24-04, 02:39 AM Lastly, as an aside, I would add that I find the burst enhancements a complete waste. Spending +2 enhancement for a 5-20% chance (per swing) for a second d10 of damage seems wimpy in comparison to spending the same amount of money for a guaranteed extra 1d6 energy damage on a successful hit.

Oh... you're forgetting something... it's 1d10 for a x2 critical... x3 gets 2d10 and x4 gets 3d10... The Weapon Master PrC from the Sword and Fist book can get it to x5 (4d10 burst)... and increase the critical threat range by 2. With keen a keen Mercurial Great/Long sword or a Scythe and Imp Critical you can crit at 16 for x4 (or 5) damage.
Also, I have a question... if I have more than one type of burst in my weapon, do they stack? Would a Mercurial Greatsword of Flaming, Shocking, Freezing and Acidic Burst deal a total of 12d10 elemental damage on a critical?
Also, what is the limit for a weapon, again... was it a total of +10?
sparkster4242
10-24-04, 03:31 AM weapon enhancements dont care about other enhancements that just happen to be on the same weapon; they work the same no matter what else the weapon is doing at the time, so yes, every burst effect a weapon has will activate on a critical hit, and have its normal effect.

the authors _could_ have said that randomly rolled duplicate energy enhancements should be rerolled - but they didnt. if a random generator can make a double-flaming weapon, then the players should be able to as well.

damage is not a bonus, so it does not follow the stacking rules - damage just happens.

maximum total enhancements equivalent to +10, maximum enhancement bonus to hit/damage +5, maximum cost of a single ability +5.
Heron_Marked_Blade
10-24-04, 02:33 PM the authors _could_ have said that randomly rolled duplicate energy enhancements should be rerolled - but they didnt. if a random generator can make a double-flaming weapon, then the players should be able to as well.
They do say that. Look at the table. Footnote #4: "Reroll if you get a duplicate special ability, an ability incompatible with an ability that you've already rolled, or if the extra ability puts you over the +10 limit."
Beamup
10-24-04, 02:54 PM They do say that. Look at the table. Footnote #4: "Reroll if you get a duplicate special ability, an ability incompatible with an ability that you've already rolled, or if the extra ability puts you over the +10 limit."
But footnote 4 only applies if you roll a result of "roll again twice." Footnote 4 does NOT apply for the following item, for example:

Medium magic weapon
Roll 72: Special ability and roll again
Roll 15: Flaming
Roll 85: Special ability and roll again
Roll 17: Flaming
Roll 50: +3

So this weapon would end up +3 Flaming Flaming, and footnote 4 would not come into it. The existence of footnote 4 implies that one should reroll the second Flaming... but by the rules, you don't because footnote 4 does not apply to that roll.
d_nychus
10-24-04, 06:09 PM Personally, I see nothing wrong mechanically or in flavor of having energy enhancements stack. Some swords would "burn hotter" than others.

Mechanically, having a +5 flaming flaming flaming flaming burst longsword is not all that spectacular; net effect 1d8 +4d6 fire or 2d8 +4d6 and 1d10 fire on a critical. Umm, yay. Could it be useful? I think in the right hands and right circumstances, very, but not overly useful in most situations.

And as for flavor, it really seems to make sense that some weapons would have more flame (or whatever) to them. Wouldn't the Legendary Longsword Kalsa, The Eternal Tongue of Fire, forged in the depths of City of Brass by efreeti wizards, be hotter than that random +1 flaming sword you found in a cave? Or even split the medium; wouldn't your average pyromancer want to more focus on fire rather than add a whole bunch of random effects to the weapons he crafts?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Farland 10-23-04, 10:56 AM	Can a bow be both shock and shocking burst at the same time, so that it shocks on normal hits and shocking bursts on a crit?
kSquared 10-23-04, 11:14 AM	A shocking burst weapon is a shock weapon. You get all the benefits of shock in addition to more damage on a critical hit. Shocking Burst: A shocking burst weapon functions as a shock weapon that also explodes with electricity upon striking a successful critical hit. [...]
MythDragon 10-23-04, 11:17 AM	Yes it can if it is "Shocking Burst" then it has both functions. Shock on normal hit(damage +1d6) Shock burst on crit.(damage+1d6 +1d10)
MetalGemini 10-23-04, 01:12 PM	Depending on how you read the rules, you can stack the same special abilities on a weapon multiple times. Shock + Shocking burst would be an example of this. So damage would be +2d6 electricity and bonus on crits. Otherwise, it seems to be a general house rule that if you have a shock weapon (+1 enhancement) and want to make it a shocking burst (+2 enhancement) weapon, you only need to pay the additional +1 cost b'c shocking burst already incorporates the shock part of it.
kSquared 10-23-04, 01:27 PM	I wouldn't allow a weapon like a +2 flaming flaming longsword (+4 total) or a +1 shocking shocking burst longsword (+4 total). It would be equivalent to having multiple haste spells on your or multiple mage armor spells. The benefits are all from the same source, so they wouldn't stack.
Seeker95 10-23-04, 01:50 PM	I allow energy weapon stacking at the same price rules. +1 flaming (+2 equivalent) = 8,000gp (+1d6 fire) +1 flaming, shocking (+3 equivalent) = 18,000gp (+1d6 fire, +1d6 electricity) +1 flaming, flaming (+3 equivalent) = 18,000gp (+2d6 fire) +1 flaming, flaming burst (+4 equivalent) = 32,000gp (+2d6 fire / +1d6 fire +1d10 fire on a crit) I have no problem with someone doing +3d6 fire damage instead of +1d6 fire +1d6 cold +1d6 electricity damage. The risk is that your expensive fire weapon is now useless against all creatures immune to fire, while the equally expensive multiple energy effect weapon is simply "less effective" against many more creatures.
Farland 10-23-04, 05:19 PM	Whoops, sorry. I hadn't noticed that shocking burst is also shocking. Sorry to waste time.
Seeker95 10-23-04, 07:18 PM	Whoops, sorry. I hadn't noticed that shocking burst is also shocking. Sorry to waste time.Not a waste of time at all. The ramifications of such a question are larger than the question itself. Here are just a few of them: 1. Can you stack energy effects? 2. Can you stack the same energy effects? 3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"? Lastly, as an aside, I would add that I find the burst enhancements a complete waste. Spending +2 enhancement for a 5-20% chance (per swing) for a second d10 of damage seems wimpy in comparison to spending the same amount of money for a guaranteed extra 1d6 energy damage on a successful hit.
MetalGemini 10-23-04, 07:25 PM	Not a waste of time at all. The ramifications of such a question are larger than the question itself. Here are just a few of them: 1. Can you stack energy effects? 2. Can you stack the same energy effects? 3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"? These questions are covered in other threads. Try a search for answers if you really feel like pursuing it further.
Seeker95 10-23-04, 10:13 PM	MetalGemini, I find your reply mildly amusing. Are you claiming that Farland's question was a waste of time? Or are you claiming that my questions are irrelevant to the thread? Or are you claiming that my questions are a waste of your time? Lastly, did you fail to read the entire post, or just ignore the context in which the questions were asked?
Votan 10-23-04, 10:20 PM	Not a waste of time at all. The ramifications of such a question are larger than the question itself. Here are just a few of them: 1. Can you stack energy effects? 2. Can you stack the same energy effects? 3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"? Lastly, as an aside, I would add that I find the burst enhancements a complete waste. Spending +2 enhancement for a 5-20% chance (per swing) for a second d10 of damage seems wimpy in comparison to spending the same amount of money for a guaranteed extra 1d6 energy damage on a successful hit. I agree that the burst option is sub-par. It is the only good reason I can find agaisnt stacking energy enhancements is that a double fire enhancement is better than a flaming burst enhancement (by a fair amount, actually).
bitnine 10-23-04, 11:12 PM	1. Can you stack energy effects? 2. Can you stack the same energy effects? 3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"?Heh. I want to stack other abilities. My +1 humanbane humanbane humanbane bow is going to totally rock. ;)
Beamup 10-23-04, 11:38 PM	1. Can you stack energy effects? 2. Can you stack the same energy effects? 3. Can you stack "energy" + "energy burst"? I'll make an attempt at explaining how I would answer these and why. 1. Sure, why not? If you're paying for both, then you might as well get both so long as they're different. If there's a +2 enhancement that grants a weapon a permanent (never turns off, unlike Flaming) 1d12 of Fire damage, I see no reason you couldn't use it together with Flaming. 2. Strictly by RAW, yes. It is possible to generate, for example, a +2 Flaming Flaming sword using the DMG random generation tables. There is no general note that you would ignore a second generation of the same ability (such a note is made only on the "roll twice" entries) and such a weapon would end up a +4 equivalent. So apparently they stack. BUT, IMO this makes no sense and probably wasn't considered by the authors - particularly in fact that the "roll twice" entries DO have that note - so I would houserule that it cannot be done (and reroll such randomly generated items). 3. Again, according to the random generation tables it's possible. But it makes no sense since the burst abilities contain the non-bursting ability already. So again I would houserule that it cannot be done.
Keenath 10-24-04, 02:35 AM	By the RAW, you can certainly stack elemental effects. In my campaigns, it's extremely depricated. I'll get with my players and do everything I can to avoid having more than one elemental enchantment. I have no particular problem with, say, a flaming shocking longsword, but it gets bizarre when you have a flaming freezing greataxe. I mean, how does that even WORK? So I try to just avoid the problem and suggest that they get a different enchantment. I would say you can't stack abilities with the same name, for the same reason you can't benefit from two simultaneous castings of Mage Armor. It may not be explicitly written out in the stacking rules that they apply to weapon enchantments, but IMC they do. Stacking related elemental enchantments... that's a harder sell. Why not a freezing icy burst mace? This is really just an extention of the first question -- as far as I'm concerned, you can't, but by the rules as written, it's not outlawed.
Master Agnald 10-24-04, 02:39 AM	Lastly, as an aside, I would add that I find the burst enhancements a complete waste. Spending +2 enhancement for a 5-20% chance (per swing) for a second d10 of damage seems wimpy in comparison to spending the same amount of money for a guaranteed extra 1d6 energy damage on a successful hit. Oh... you're forgetting something... it's 1d10 for a x2 critical... x3 gets 2d10 and x4 gets 3d10... The Weapon Master PrC from the Sword and Fist book can get it to x5 (4d10 burst)... and increase the critical threat range by 2. With keen a keen Mercurial Great/Long sword or a Scythe and Imp Critical you can crit at 16 for x4 (or 5) damage. Also, I have a question... if I have more than one type of burst in my weapon, do they stack? Would a Mercurial Greatsword of Flaming, Shocking, Freezing and Acidic Burst deal a total of 12d10 elemental damage on a critical? Also, what is the limit for a weapon, again... was it a total of +10?
sparkster4242 10-24-04, 03:31 AM	weapon enhancements dont care about other enhancements that just happen to be on the same weapon; they work the same no matter what else the weapon is doing at the time, so yes, every burst effect a weapon has will activate on a critical hit, and have its normal effect. the authors _could_ have said that randomly rolled duplicate energy enhancements should be rerolled - but they didnt. if a random generator can make a double-flaming weapon, then the players should be able to as well. damage is not a bonus, so it does not follow the stacking rules - damage just happens. maximum total enhancements equivalent to +10, maximum enhancement bonus to hit/damage +5, maximum cost of a single ability +5.
Heron_Marked_Blade 10-24-04, 02:33 PM	the authors _could_ have said that randomly rolled duplicate energy enhancements should be rerolled - but they didnt. if a random generator can make a double-flaming weapon, then the players should be able to as well. They do say that. Look at the table. Footnote #4: "Reroll if you get a duplicate special ability, an ability incompatible with an ability that you've already rolled, or if the extra ability puts you over the +10 limit."
Beamup 10-24-04, 02:54 PM	They do say that. Look at the table. Footnote #4: "Reroll if you get a duplicate special ability, an ability incompatible with an ability that you've already rolled, or if the extra ability puts you over the +10 limit." But footnote 4 only applies if you roll a result of "roll again twice." Footnote 4 does NOT apply for the following item, for example: Medium magic weapon Roll 72: Special ability and roll again Roll 15: Flaming Roll 85: Special ability and roll again Roll 17: Flaming Roll 50: +3 So this weapon would end up +3 Flaming Flaming, and footnote 4 would not come into it. The existence of footnote 4 implies that one should reroll the second Flaming... but by the rules, you don't because footnote 4 does not apply to that roll.
d_nychus 10-24-04, 06:09 PM	Personally, I see nothing wrong mechanically or in flavor of having energy enhancements stack. Some swords would "burn hotter" than others. Mechanically, having a +5 flaming flaming flaming flaming burst longsword is not all that spectacular; net effect 1d8 +4d6 fire or 2d8 +4d6 and 1d10 fire on a critical. Umm, yay. Could it be useful? I think in the right hands and right circumstances, very, but not overly useful in most situations. And as for flavor, it really seems to make sense that some weapons would have more flame (or whatever) to them. Wouldn't the Legendary Longsword Kalsa, The Eternal Tongue of Fire, forged in the depths of City of Brass by efreeti wizards, be hotter than that random +1 flaming sword you found in a cave? Or even split the medium; wouldn't your average pyromancer want to more focus on fire rather than add a whole bunch of random effects to the weapons he crafts?