Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raene Jagad 09-29-04, 10:04 AM	After watching one of my players with a 14 strength attempt to escape from combat with another characters body (a 900lb half minotaur) using a teleportation or dimension door spell I made a ruling that it wouldn't work as: a) as a corpse they were not willing - I ruled they were effectively an object ( a hunk of meat in this case!); b) they were not "gear"; and c) as an object the weight limits applied. I'm happy to change that opinion. Was I right? Please quote from rules books or rulings made by WotC staff that I can actually trace. (This is 3.5 btw.) Ta for any help. :D
Zherog 09-29-04, 10:11 AM	Well, I can't give you rules quotes at the moment, but I definitely think you made the right ruling be declaring a corpse to be an object.
kSquared 09-29-04, 10:18 AM	Yes, a corpse is an object, so it would be like picking up a 900-lb. block of stone and trying to take it with you as per the dimension door rules (which would make the spell fail since you can't bring that much). However, unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing: Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
angryman 09-29-04, 10:19 AM	Aarghh! Jeez, I thought it was another one of those "is necrophilia morally acceptable" threads...whew!
kSquared 09-29-04, 10:20 AM	angryman, I'm eating here!
Raene Jagad 09-29-04, 10:29 AM	Yeah in hindsight I could have worded that differently! :D
tarkin 09-29-04, 11:42 AM	Undead are creatures, and should be treated as such. If a creature succesfully grapples you, and you try to teleport, you are either trying to escape the grapple by moving (via teleportation, swiming, fly, it doesn't matter) or trying to take them with you. If you are trying to escape the grapple, you must first win a grapple check caused by your attempt to teleport. If you fail the grapple check, it is as if you are trying to take them with you. If you are trying to take them with you, the spell may fail if it does not allow you to take them with you (because of weight for example).
kSquared 09-29-04, 11:55 AM	tarkin, the corpse was dead, not undead (unless I grossly misread the original post). It wasn't animated and moving around, just a dead body. Dead bodies are objects.
kSquared 09-29-04, 11:56 AM	Ah, I think I see why you got confused... After watching one of my players with a 14 strength attempt to escape from combat with another characters body (a 900lb half minotaur) using a teleportation or dimension door spell...The player wasn't literally fighting the half-minotaur's corpse -- he was fighting something else and carrying the corpse. A better rewording: "One of my players, who had 14 Strength, attempted to escape from combat while carrying another character's body (our 900-lb. half-minotaur)."
Raene Jagad 09-29-04, 01:19 PM	Well if I'm being specific the cleric told me they would touch their friends body and defensively dimension door out. I then said ..... "woah"! I'm not that cruel and allowed them to do a different action (after much discussion of could they/couldn't they!). :D
Seeker95 09-29-04, 03:06 PM	A corpse is an object. The spell has a weight limit. You judged appropriately.
kSquared 09-29-04, 03:25 PM	That answer was practically a haiku, Seeker. I'm impressed! ;)
Seeker95 09-29-04, 04:38 PM	Corpse is an object. The spell has a weight limit. Your judgment was right. Wanted to make it right for kSquared. Not too often you get to haiku D&D!
Hypersmurf 09-30-04, 11:11 PM	A corpse is an object. Although it's also termed a creature sometimes - for example, the target of Raise Dead is 'dead creature touched'. Dead is a condition, so the target of Raise Dead is a creature with the dead condition. So there is room to argue that a corpse is a creature. -Hyp.
Seeker95 09-30-04, 11:37 PM	Although there is room to argue, it would be argument for argument's sake. This spell (and others of its "bring back from the dead" ilk) are the only reference to corpses being creatures -- and in a context that makes a lot more sense than claiming a corpse can be a "willing target" of a spell.
Hypersmurf 09-30-04, 11:41 PM	Although there is room to argue, it would be argument for argument's sake. This spell (and others of its "bring back from the dead" ilk) are the only reference to corpses being creatures -- and in a context that makes a lot more sense than claiming a corpse can be a "willing target" of a spell. It was clearer in 3E. Dead creatures had negative hit points, and were therefore dying, and were therefore unconscious, and were therefore willing targets. In 3.5, though, the Dying condition only applies between -1 and -9, so dead creatures (at -10) are no longer dying, and therefore aren't prohibited from taking actions any more :) -Hyp.
Egres 09-30-04, 11:41 PM	Although there is room to argue, it would be argument for argument's sake. This spell (and others of its "bring back from the dead" ilk) are the only reference to corpses being creatures -- and in a context that makes a lot more sense than claiming a corpse can be a "willing target" of a spell. Well, i don't think it would be only "argument for argument's sake", since the answer to this problem would solve my matter with the Juggernaut Resurrection. :)