Can a familiar take levels in a class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a familiar take levels in a class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Prophet of Chaos
09-19-04, 11:00 AM I was just wondering about this because my DM said he'd allow my feline familiar to become a ranger.

What do you guys think?
Ipsissimus
09-19-04, 11:06 AM Are you going to call him Puss'n'boots?

IMO once your familiar starts to take class levels, he is no longer your familiar but your cohort. Hence losing all familiar abilities and now you need to take Leadership the feat.

Our DM would laugh at the thought, a familiar with class levels that gains both exp and familiar abilities as you progress along with hps? C'mon, that's alittle unbalanced don't you think?

But if your DM wants you to have it, he should also let the fighter's sword become intelligent and level as your familiar levels. Only fair...
HomebrewedMonster
09-19-04, 11:15 AM Ips is right on this one, it's a little unbalancing. If you took the Leadership feat, I would allow it. For the sole fact he still won't be all that combat effective unless you buff him. He won't be able to wield weapons since he has no oppossable thumbs, so the Ranger's combat style class abilities would be completely useless. Now if you took improved familiar and leadership I reason, as a DM, that you cat transforms through your magical energies into a humanoid cat.

But just because seems silly, I think the most important thing is what do the other players think? Are they going to be getting ridiculous powers as well?
Ipsissimus
09-19-04, 11:36 AM you could give the cat little claw razors, and he can take the multiattack feat instead of twf as a ranger. Now with track, he can track better than anyone else, do cats get scent?

Then, when your cat ranger gets enough levels, he can attract a mouse animal companion and call him jerry. That would rock...they could do into business together, making a racket to rid homes of mice.

Then, your DM will allow your cat ranger's mouse animal companion to take levels in wizard...and get an owl familiar because harry potter has an owl familiar and...oh, sorry.

Yeah. Check out the cards I did for UnCon.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=305403
Prophet of Chaos
09-19-04, 11:49 AM Are you going to call him Puss'n'boots?
The Puss n' Boots joke was already made by the DM.

And yes I have Leadership.

Are they going to be getting ridiculous powers as well?
How is this ridiculous? A housecat ranger is completely useless. What's he going to do? Claw the BBEG to death? The idea is silly yes, but ridiculous, no.
Kiri Sittori
09-19-04, 12:12 PM So what stops my Ice (or any other elemental) Mephit Familiar from taking Sorcerer levels? (Improved Familiar allows Mephits at seventh level; these critters are 3hd Outsiders with LA +3, for a total ECL 6. And ALL of them have Cha 15 on the *average* array.)

:)
Bloodtide_the_Red
09-19-04, 12:12 PM There is no reason why any creature can not take some class levels. It's a great way to power up animals, for example. 5th level wolf fighters, 3rd level ranger hawks, or 4th level rat rouges can make quite an impact. In the cast of animals and creatures of low intelligence it's more natural skill and experience then training.
Sure a toad can't use weapons, but it does not need too. It's not realy going to be going toe-to-toe with dragons, but the bonus skill points, hit points and class features can sure help. It would also help your fiamilar to deliver touch spells too.

I can't see it as being a unblance, no one is going to take over the world with thier owl that has class levels.

BT
tarkin
09-19-04, 12:17 PM Officially Familiars are forbidden from taking class levels. If something happens to them that forces them to take Class levels, they cease to be your familiar.

Of course your DM may House Rule otherwise, but that is a specific rule that WoTC has published. And your DM may also decide that people whose names begin with the letter "H" get an extra 50 hitpoints. Neither rule seem fair to me.
Kiri Sittori
09-19-04, 12:22 PM Keep in mind, also, that certain features of a familiar are ALWAYS keyed to the master... specifically Hit Points. Sure, my ferret can have class levels... fighter, rogue, ranger, psion (since familiars can get enough Int) or even druid. But the ferret's hit points will always be half of mine. Same with those pseudodragons and mephits and anything else.

Now, what I probably would NOT allow is for "gain companion" abilities, such as familiar, mount, or animal companion, to work in conjunction with the familiar. (Ie, those Mephit Sorcerers can't have their own familiars.) Nor can any such critter, being a servitor, take Leadership for as long as it is a servitor.

Thoughts?
Kiri Sittori
09-19-04, 12:23 PM Officially Familiars are forbidden from taking class levels. If something happens to them that forces them to take Class levels, they cease to be your familiar.

Of course your DM may House Rule otherwise, but that is a specific rule that WoTC has published. And your DM may also decide that people whose names begin with the letter "H" get an extra 50 hitpoints. Neither rule seem fair to me.

Where is that written... for reference?
KP91
11-17-04, 07:20 PM I would house-rule they can if they are intelligent enouph. Like if you have a mephit familiar or something else.
MaverickWolf
11-17-04, 07:31 PM There is no reason why any creature can not take some class levels. It's a great way to power up animals, for example. 5th level wolf fighters, 3rd level ranger hawks, or 4th level rat rouges can make quite an impact. In the cast of animals and creatures of low intelligence it's more natural skill and experience then training.
Sure a toad can't use weapons, but it does not need too. It's not realy going to be going toe-to-toe with dragons, but the bonus skill points, hit points and class features can sure help. It would also help your fiamilar to deliver touch spells too.

I can't see it as being a unblance, no one is going to take over the world with thier owl that has class levels.

BTActually, the rules require an Int of 3 to take class levels, so typical animals cannot.
Zherog
11-17-04, 09:26 PM I'm curious - how is your familiar gaining XP in order to acquire levels? Familiars and animal companions do not get XP; neither do followers from the Leadership feat for that matter - though, of course, cohorts do.
Shatteredtower
11-18-04, 02:39 AM Then, when your cat ranger gets enough levels, he can attract a mouse animal companion and call him jerry. That would rock...they could do into business together, making a racket to rid homes of mice.

Well, no, if they were going to rock, Jerry and (presumably) Tom should go by their given names, Paul and Art.

:angel:

As for Zherog's question about how the animals in question gain xp, would it be any different from how awakened animals gain xp? I guess it would have to be for animal companions, since their hit dice keep shifting (really messing up attempts to calculate levelling procedures), but what of familiars, who officially don't gain hit dice (which I personally feel was not the best call, due to the complications involved).

If the accumulation of xp should be different for familiars, it might be necessary, as the rules stand now, to have the xp not so much gained as paid out from the total acquired by the spellcaster. That's probably not going to fly well, though -- does a 14th level wizard want to effectively forfeit the amount of experience it would take to reach 15th level in order to get a familiar from 1st to 5th level (assuming no level adjustment)?
Failut
11-18-04, 04:14 AM ...
As for Zherog's question about how the animals in question gain xp, would it be any different from how awakened animals gain xp? I guess it would have to be for animal companions, since their hit dice keep shifting (really messing up attempts to calculate levelling procedures), but what of familiars, who officially don't gain hit dice (which I personally feel was not the best call, due to the complications involved).....

Once a druid has awakened an animal companion he looses that animal as a comanion. The animal gains the type "Magical beast" and can not be a "pet". At that point the only way to keep them as an "employee" it must be made a cohort.

I would view the same happening with the familiar. Once it gains a lvl, it is no longer a familiar. For those of you who say that it is not overpowered. This opens the door for familiar spell casters. A sorc familiar is basically a magic missle machine. Or a cleric fam is a healing machine. Etc.. etc..
Shatteredtower
11-18-04, 08:56 AM You know, quoting me was gratuitous there, especially quoting the whole thing.

Once a druid has awakened an animal companion he loses that animal as a companion.

Nowhere is this written. An equally valid interpretation is that the spell cannot be cast upon an animal companion. Indeed, by one interpretation of what can and cannot serve as an animal companion, the restriction is against taking awakened animals as companion, not the other way around.

Good grief -- may as well call the spell "Sever the bond," otherwise.

"My wolf and I are no longer on speaking terms ever since she started being able to speak her own mind and stuff."

At that point the only way to keep them as an "employee" it must be made a cohort.

You're misusing the word "must." This also seems like a horribly abusive thing to do to players.

"Yes, I know you and your little pony have been companions through thick and thin for the last fifteen levels, but she's got her own life now and it's time you went separate ways. Now maybe I can see my way clear to letting her stick around if you take the Leadership the next time a feat becomes available, but until then, she's completely out of your life."

You're better off taking their relationship to date into context and playing it from there, rather insisting on a feat expenditure on top of the gp expense (unless you have a party member cast the spell, in which case you've got a 1st level spellcaster in a 9th level party, a situation that is eventually self-correcting), and possibly xp loss for familiar, if you're dealing with someone who's determined to kick you in the teeth.

For those of you who say that it is not overpowered. This opens the door for familiar spell casters. A sorc familiar is basically a magic missle machine. Or a cleric fam is a healing machine. Etc.. etc..

And all they'd need is the Still Spell feat to pull this off for most spells, which rather limits their capacity to perform either task very well, and you don't get very good sorcerers out of an animal's typical Charisma score +1d3. You can do okay with clerics, since many animals have a 12-14 Wisdom, but it's pot luck for Wizards.

Besides, considering how weak familiars are generally considered to be, spellcasting familiars are hardly a game-breaking concept. I might not care for the Cleric-in-every-Basket mentality, but there are surely better ways to handle the whole affair than to make awaken into the bane of druids, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards.
Valoy_Muniz
11-18-04, 10:00 AM One thing I do wish is they would alow them to get more feats. I think they should get feats and skill as you level up. It would come out to 1 skil point (2+ int mod) every level and 1 feat very 3 level. This would make them more usefull with out making them urban.
Valoy_Muniz
11-18-04, 10:01 AM I know this is off topic but if you want to see something funny have your Familier that can speak a language have a discuson with a player that has a lower int and have the familier win it.
Failut
11-18-04, 09:47 PM You know, quoting me was gratuitous there, especially quoting the whole thing.

Nowhere is this written. An equally valid interpretation is that the spell cannot be cast upon an animal companion. Indeed, by one interpretation of what can and cannot serve as an animal companion, the restriction is against taking awakened animals as companion, not the other way around.

Good grief -- may as well call the spell "Sever the bond," otherwise.

"My wolf and I are no longer on speaking terms ever since she started being able to speak her own mind and stuff."

You're misusing the word "must." This also seems like a horribly abusive thing to do to players.

"Yes, I know you and your little pony have been companions through thick and thin for the last fifteen levels, but she's got her own life now and it's time you went separate ways. Now maybe I can see my way clear to letting her stick around if you take the Leadership the next time a feat becomes available, but until then, she's completely out of your life."

You're better off taking their relationship to date into context and playing it from there, rather insisting on a feat expenditure on top of the gp expense (unless you have a party member cast the spell, in which case you've got a 1st level spellcaster in a 9th level party, a situation that is eventually self-correcting), and possibly xp loss for familiar, if you're dealing with someone who's determined to kick you in the teeth.

And all they'd need is the Still Spell feat to pull this off for most spells, which rather limits their capacity to perform either task very well, and you don't get very good sorcerers out of an animal's typical Charisma score +1d3. You can do okay with clerics, since many animals have a 12-14 Wisdom, but it's pot luck for Wizards.

Besides, considering how weak familiars are generally considered to be, spellcasting familiars are hardly a game-breaking concept. I might not care for the Cleric-in-every-Basket mentality, but there are surely better ways to handle the whole affair than to make awaken into the bane of druids, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards.

But it is written in the text of the spell.

To quote the SRD. (highlights mine)
You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).
The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).

Both of these state that you no longer have any special empathy or connection to the creature (the animal companion link is broken, doubly so since the animal is no longer a natural animal, it is now a magical beast.) and it also states that it can not serve as an animalcompanion, familiar, or special mount (no awakened Pali mounts).

So yes, for a druid to cast this spell on his pet, you might as well call it "Sever the bond" to use Dark Age of Camelot's spell name.

As to saying that they must be a cohort. They just became an NPC character (either that or a second character that the player has to play.) Of course you take the relationship to date when this happens. But that character (since that is what the pet now is) now can gain XP and has a mind of it's own. How do you handle lower level NPS's who join the party?
BW0222
11-18-04, 11:26 PM >I'm curious - how is your familiar gaining XP in order to acquire levels?

Bingo. A familiar's hd is equal to it's masters character level. It doesn't gain XP, it just "magically" gains HD.

And creatures below a 3 int can not take class levels. A bear is capable of learning a few simple tricks, not sit in ranger school for weeks learning how to use a bow or shortsword. An animal companion only gains bonus hit dice from his druid or ranger master. These are also "magical" HD. They disappear as soon as the druid dismisses them.

An awakened animal could take class levels, but you would need the leadership feat to maintain one. And of course the cohort level would be dramatically above the animal hit dice + character levels gained, due to the size, strength, natural attacks, scent, natural armour, etc., etc.
sooperspook
11-19-04, 06:34 AM Dont familliars gain intelligence as their master gains levels? It doesnt matter that they only have Int3 at 1st level cuase soon enough they get smarter.
maybe a compromise would be better? like specially designed classes for familliars?
i've never really liked that familliars dont gain HD either.
Shatteredtower
11-19-04, 07:45 AM But it is written in the text of the spell.

No, that's how you're interpreting it, nothing more. Maybe I'd say more, but I'm tired of being gratuitously quoted.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prophet of Chaos 09-19-04, 11:00 AM	I was just wondering about this because my DM said he'd allow my feline familiar to become a ranger. What do you guys think?
Ipsissimus 09-19-04, 11:06 AM	Are you going to call him Puss'n'boots? IMO once your familiar starts to take class levels, he is no longer your familiar but your cohort. Hence losing all familiar abilities and now you need to take Leadership the feat. Our DM would laugh at the thought, a familiar with class levels that gains both exp and familiar abilities as you progress along with hps? C'mon, that's alittle unbalanced don't you think? But if your DM wants you to have it, he should also let the fighter's sword become intelligent and level as your familiar levels. Only fair...
HomebrewedMonster 09-19-04, 11:15 AM	Ips is right on this one, it's a little unbalancing. If you took the Leadership feat, I would allow it. For the sole fact he still won't be all that combat effective unless you buff him. He won't be able to wield weapons since he has no oppossable thumbs, so the Ranger's combat style class abilities would be completely useless. Now if you took improved familiar and leadership I reason, as a DM, that you cat transforms through your magical energies into a humanoid cat. But just because seems silly, I think the most important thing is what do the other players think? Are they going to be getting ridiculous powers as well?
Ipsissimus 09-19-04, 11:36 AM	you could give the cat little claw razors, and he can take the multiattack feat instead of twf as a ranger. Now with track, he can track better than anyone else, do cats get scent? Then, when your cat ranger gets enough levels, he can attract a mouse animal companion and call him jerry. That would rock...they could do into business together, making a racket to rid homes of mice. Then, your DM will allow your cat ranger's mouse animal companion to take levels in wizard...and get an owl familiar because harry potter has an owl familiar and...oh, sorry. Yeah. Check out the cards I did for UnCon. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=305403
Prophet of Chaos 09-19-04, 11:49 AM	Are you going to call him Puss'n'boots? The Puss n' Boots joke was already made by the DM. And yes I have Leadership. Are they going to be getting ridiculous powers as well? How is this ridiculous? A housecat ranger is completely useless. What's he going to do? Claw the BBEG to death? The idea is silly yes, but ridiculous, no.
Kiri Sittori 09-19-04, 12:12 PM	So what stops my Ice (or any other elemental) Mephit Familiar from taking Sorcerer levels? (Improved Familiar allows Mephits at seventh level; these critters are 3hd Outsiders with LA +3, for a total ECL 6. And ALL of them have Cha 15 on the average array.) :)
Bloodtide_the_Red 09-19-04, 12:12 PM	There is no reason why any creature can not take some class levels. It's a great way to power up animals, for example. 5th level wolf fighters, 3rd level ranger hawks, or 4th level rat rouges can make quite an impact. In the cast of animals and creatures of low intelligence it's more natural skill and experience then training. Sure a toad can't use weapons, but it does not need too. It's not realy going to be going toe-to-toe with dragons, but the bonus skill points, hit points and class features can sure help. It would also help your fiamilar to deliver touch spells too. I can't see it as being a unblance, no one is going to take over the world with thier owl that has class levels. BT
tarkin 09-19-04, 12:17 PM	Officially Familiars are forbidden from taking class levels. If something happens to them that forces them to take Class levels, they cease to be your familiar. Of course your DM may House Rule otherwise, but that is a specific rule that WoTC has published. And your DM may also decide that people whose names begin with the letter "H" get an extra 50 hitpoints. Neither rule seem fair to me.
Kiri Sittori 09-19-04, 12:22 PM	Keep in mind, also, that certain features of a familiar are ALWAYS keyed to the master... specifically Hit Points. Sure, my ferret can have class levels... fighter, rogue, ranger, psion (since familiars can get enough Int) or even druid. But the ferret's hit points will always be half of mine. Same with those pseudodragons and mephits and anything else. Now, what I probably would NOT allow is for "gain companion" abilities, such as familiar, mount, or animal companion, to work in conjunction with the familiar. (Ie, those Mephit Sorcerers can't have their own familiars.) Nor can any such critter, being a servitor, take Leadership for as long as it is a servitor. Thoughts?
Kiri Sittori 09-19-04, 12:23 PM	Officially Familiars are forbidden from taking class levels. If something happens to them that forces them to take Class levels, they cease to be your familiar. Of course your DM may House Rule otherwise, but that is a specific rule that WoTC has published. And your DM may also decide that people whose names begin with the letter "H" get an extra 50 hitpoints. Neither rule seem fair to me. Where is that written... for reference?
KP91 11-17-04, 07:20 PM	I would house-rule they can if they are intelligent enouph. Like if you have a mephit familiar or something else.
MaverickWolf 11-17-04, 07:31 PM	There is no reason why any creature can not take some class levels. It's a great way to power up animals, for example. 5th level wolf fighters, 3rd level ranger hawks, or 4th level rat rouges can make quite an impact. In the cast of animals and creatures of low intelligence it's more natural skill and experience then training. Sure a toad can't use weapons, but it does not need too. It's not realy going to be going toe-to-toe with dragons, but the bonus skill points, hit points and class features can sure help. It would also help your fiamilar to deliver touch spells too. I can't see it as being a unblance, no one is going to take over the world with thier owl that has class levels. BTActually, the rules require an Int of 3 to take class levels, so typical animals cannot.
Zherog 11-17-04, 09:26 PM	I'm curious - how is your familiar gaining XP in order to acquire levels? Familiars and animal companions do not get XP; neither do followers from the Leadership feat for that matter - though, of course, cohorts do.
Shatteredtower 11-18-04, 02:39 AM	Then, when your cat ranger gets enough levels, he can attract a mouse animal companion and call him jerry. That would rock...they could do into business together, making a racket to rid homes of mice. Well, no, if they were going to rock, Jerry and (presumably) Tom should go by their given names, Paul and Art. :angel: As for Zherog's question about how the animals in question gain xp, would it be any different from how awakened animals gain xp? I guess it would have to be for animal companions, since their hit dice keep shifting (really messing up attempts to calculate levelling procedures), but what of familiars, who officially don't gain hit dice (which I personally feel was not the best call, due to the complications involved). If the accumulation of xp should be different for familiars, it might be necessary, as the rules stand now, to have the xp not so much gained as paid out from the total acquired by the spellcaster. That's probably not going to fly well, though -- does a 14th level wizard want to effectively forfeit the amount of experience it would take to reach 15th level in order to get a familiar from 1st to 5th level (assuming no level adjustment)?
Failut 11-18-04, 04:14 AM	... As for Zherog's question about how the animals in question gain xp, would it be any different from how awakened animals gain xp? I guess it would have to be for animal companions, since their hit dice keep shifting (really messing up attempts to calculate levelling procedures), but what of familiars, who officially don't gain hit dice (which I personally feel was not the best call, due to the complications involved)..... Once a druid has awakened an animal companion he looses that animal as a comanion. The animal gains the type "Magical beast" and can not be a "pet". At that point the only way to keep them as an "employee" it must be made a cohort. I would view the same happening with the familiar. Once it gains a lvl, it is no longer a familiar. For those of you who say that it is not overpowered. This opens the door for familiar spell casters. A sorc familiar is basically a magic missle machine. Or a cleric fam is a healing machine. Etc.. etc..
Shatteredtower 11-18-04, 08:56 AM	You know, quoting me was gratuitous there, especially quoting the whole thing. Once a druid has awakened an animal companion he loses that animal as a companion. Nowhere is this written. An equally valid interpretation is that the spell cannot be cast upon an animal companion. Indeed, by one interpretation of what can and cannot serve as an animal companion, the restriction is against taking awakened animals as companion, not the other way around. Good grief -- may as well call the spell "Sever the bond," otherwise. "My wolf and I are no longer on speaking terms ever since she started being able to speak her own mind and stuff." At that point the only way to keep them as an "employee" it must be made a cohort. You're misusing the word "must." This also seems like a horribly abusive thing to do to players. "Yes, I know you and your little pony have been companions through thick and thin for the last fifteen levels, but she's got her own life now and it's time you went separate ways. Now maybe I can see my way clear to letting her stick around if you take the Leadership the next time a feat becomes available, but until then, she's completely out of your life." You're better off taking their relationship to date into context and playing it from there, rather insisting on a feat expenditure on top of the gp expense (unless you have a party member cast the spell, in which case you've got a 1st level spellcaster in a 9th level party, a situation that is eventually self-correcting), and possibly xp loss for familiar, if you're dealing with someone who's determined to kick you in the teeth. For those of you who say that it is not overpowered. This opens the door for familiar spell casters. A sorc familiar is basically a magic missle machine. Or a cleric fam is a healing machine. Etc.. etc.. And all they'd need is the Still Spell feat to pull this off for most spells, which rather limits their capacity to perform either task very well, and you don't get very good sorcerers out of an animal's typical Charisma score +1d3. You can do okay with clerics, since many animals have a 12-14 Wisdom, but it's pot luck for Wizards. Besides, considering how weak familiars are generally considered to be, spellcasting familiars are hardly a game-breaking concept. I might not care for the Cleric-in-every-Basket mentality, but there are surely better ways to handle the whole affair than to make awaken into the bane of druids, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards.
Valoy_Muniz 11-18-04, 10:00 AM	One thing I do wish is they would alow them to get more feats. I think they should get feats and skill as you level up. It would come out to 1 skil point (2+ int mod) every level and 1 feat very 3 level. This would make them more usefull with out making them urban.
Valoy_Muniz 11-18-04, 10:01 AM	I know this is off topic but if you want to see something funny have your Familier that can speak a language have a discuson with a player that has a lower int and have the familier win it.
Failut 11-18-04, 09:47 PM	You know, quoting me was gratuitous there, especially quoting the whole thing. Nowhere is this written. An equally valid interpretation is that the spell cannot be cast upon an animal companion. Indeed, by one interpretation of what can and cannot serve as an animal companion, the restriction is against taking awakened animals as companion, not the other way around. Good grief -- may as well call the spell "Sever the bond," otherwise. "My wolf and I are no longer on speaking terms ever since she started being able to speak her own mind and stuff." You're misusing the word "must." This also seems like a horribly abusive thing to do to players. "Yes, I know you and your little pony have been companions through thick and thin for the last fifteen levels, but she's got her own life now and it's time you went separate ways. Now maybe I can see my way clear to letting her stick around if you take the Leadership the next time a feat becomes available, but until then, she's completely out of your life." You're better off taking their relationship to date into context and playing it from there, rather insisting on a feat expenditure on top of the gp expense (unless you have a party member cast the spell, in which case you've got a 1st level spellcaster in a 9th level party, a situation that is eventually self-correcting), and possibly xp loss for familiar, if you're dealing with someone who's determined to kick you in the teeth. And all they'd need is the Still Spell feat to pull this off for most spells, which rather limits their capacity to perform either task very well, and you don't get very good sorcerers out of an animal's typical Charisma score +1d3. You can do okay with clerics, since many animals have a 12-14 Wisdom, but it's pot luck for Wizards. Besides, considering how weak familiars are generally considered to be, spellcasting familiars are hardly a game-breaking concept. I might not care for the Cleric-in-every-Basket mentality, but there are surely better ways to handle the whole affair than to make awaken into the bane of druids, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards. But it is written in the text of the spell. To quote the SRD. (highlights mine) You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s. An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount. An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any). Both of these state that you no longer have any special empathy or connection to the creature (the animal companion link is broken, doubly so since the animal is no longer a natural animal, it is now a magical beast.) and it also states that it can not serve as an animalcompanion, familiar, or special mount (no awakened Pali mounts). So yes, for a druid to cast this spell on his pet, you might as well call it "Sever the bond" to use Dark Age of Camelot's spell name. As to saying that they must be a cohort. They just became an NPC character (either that or a second character that the player has to play.) Of course you take the relationship to date when this happens. But that character (since that is what the pet now is) now can gain XP and has a mind of it's own. How do you handle lower level NPS's who join the party?
BW0222 11-18-04, 11:26 PM	>I'm curious - how is your familiar gaining XP in order to acquire levels? Bingo. A familiar's hd is equal to it's masters character level. It doesn't gain XP, it just "magically" gains HD. And creatures below a 3 int can not take class levels. A bear is capable of learning a few simple tricks, not sit in ranger school for weeks learning how to use a bow or shortsword. An animal companion only gains bonus hit dice from his druid or ranger master. These are also "magical" HD. They disappear as soon as the druid dismisses them. An awakened animal could take class levels, but you would need the leadership feat to maintain one. And of course the cohort level would be dramatically above the animal hit dice + character levels gained, due to the size, strength, natural attacks, scent, natural armour, etc., etc.
sooperspook 11-19-04, 06:34 AM	Dont familliars gain intelligence as their master gains levels? It doesnt matter that they only have Int3 at 1st level cuase soon enough they get smarter. maybe a compromise would be better? like specially designed classes for familliars? i've never really liked that familliars dont gain HD either.
Shatteredtower 11-19-04, 07:45 AM	But it is written in the text of the spell. No, that's how you're interpreting it, nothing more. Maybe I'd say more, but I'm tired of being gratuitously quoted.