Can a Phantom Steed "run"? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a Phantom Steed "run"? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gamebird
05-17-05, 10:34 AM The spell phantom steed says it creates a steed with a speed of 20 feet/level (max 240). Would it be reasonable to say such a steed was capable of a hustle/double move per round? Would it be reasonable to say it was capable of a run (x4 move)? Can it swim and jump?
yonman
05-17-05, 12:25 PM Well the spell doesn't conjure/summon a real creature so I'd say no it can't run. Running is a creature dependent ability that all creatures can do due to them being "alive". I see phantom steed as being more of a spell with a fixed speed.
Gamebird
05-17-05, 12:33 PM I found that in the FAQ, it said the spell conjured a construct horse. Constructs can not run as a general trait. It strikes me as very odd though that the spell wouldn't address that specifically, especially with the potential for HUGE movement rate (960'/round).
DungeonMaster
05-17-05, 12:36 PM I would ignore the FAQ in this case (I ignore it in all cases actually). It should be able to run.
q'afuu
05-17-05, 01:06 PM I agree with DungeonMaster that the Steed should be able to run.

I wanted to look up this FAQ entry, btw, and I couldn't find it (I searched both the 3.0 and 3.5 FAQ for 'phantom', 'steed' and 'horse' and none gave me an entry dealing with the Phantom Steed spell). Sure it was a FAQ entry, Gamebird?
Gamebird
05-17-05, 01:32 PM This site: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=227006&page=1

Q: How does phantom steed interact with ride checks?
A:phantom steed acts like a construct horse. It is immune to mind-influencing effects, crits, poisons, and the like. Ride checks are required when they represent the skill of the rider at "being on horseback," but are not required when they are made to command the horse in some way.
q'afuu
05-17-05, 01:52 PM Um, that's an entirely unofficial FAQ which doesn't indicate where the answers come from (aside from mentioning a number of posters, but whether they answered questions or merely compiled other people's Q&As isn't clear). I appreciate the efforts made, but such a FAQ hardly constitutes an iron-clad argument. ;)

Also, the answer says the Steed 'acts' like a construct horse (which means it's not one), but doesn't properly explain all the ways in which it does so (unless it's supposed to be in *all* ways, but it would have been a major oversight not to include that in the core rulebooks).

Other point: where does it say constructs can't run?
PhaedrusXY
05-17-05, 01:56 PM Other point: where does it say constructs can't run?Nowhere that I know of. Most golems specifically say they can't run, but as far as I know, it's not a generic trait of all constructs. It is certainly not listed under the construct traits in the SRD. I see no reason at all that a Phantom Steed couldn't run. Dragons have flight movement rates on this scale, and they can take the run action.
Gamebird
05-17-05, 02:11 PM Well... constructs don't have a Constitution score. I thought anything without a Constitution score, including many undead, could not use the Run manuever. I can't find rules for that off hand though.

Assuming a construct could run, would there be any limit to how long it could keep it up?
q'afuu
05-17-05, 02:23 PM Well... constructs don't have a Constitution score. I thought anything without a Constitution score, including many undead, could not use the Run manuever. I can't find rules for that off hand though.

Assuming a construct could run, would there be any limit to how long it could keep it up? Under that assumption, as long as it wants. Constructs are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion.

The 3.5 PHB says on p. 144 that characters can run a number of rounds equal to their Con score, after which they need to start making Fort saves to continue. Perhasp that's where you got your idea from. However, constructs are immune to any effect that forces a Fort save.

Check the 3.5 MM, p. 312, under Nonabilities in the Glossary: that explicitly indicates that creatures without Con score can run tirelessly unless their description says otherwise, which neither the Phantom Steed spell description nor the Construct type description do.
Gamebird
05-17-05, 02:26 PM Okay. That's useful. The thing is, my wizard character has been using Phantom Steed to travel between cities and I know that next game there will be a definite need for me to have rules available to quote to back up that I really can do that. My exact speed might be critical.
Mellowship Slinky
05-17-05, 02:30 PM Having things without con scores be the locomotion for traveling is pretty commen. I've had a carraige pulled by a skeletal light horse before.
Gamebird
05-17-05, 02:55 PM So. I cast spells as 13th level, with Phantom Steed's max of 240 speed, equals a run speed of 960' per round. That's 960'/6 seconds, or 9600'/minute, which is ... 109 miles/hour. Which lasts for 13 hours for a little over 1400 miles. Assuming of course the DM doesn't nag me about riding for more than 8 hours. I figure realistically I'll have to stop for bathroom breaks and meals - at least for the others in my party (I'll be making multiple steeds). Myself, I'm gifted with a Ring of Sustenance so I'm above those things. :P
simen_88
05-17-05, 03:08 PM Shouldn't there be some information about this in the Eberron book, under the entry for Warforged?
q'afuu
05-17-05, 05:16 PM Warforged are not your basic constructs, they actually have a different type.
DungeonMaster
05-17-05, 05:51 PM On a side note the DM should nag you about riding for more than 8 hours. Riding is actually tiresome. He should rule it like any other form of travel. You can ride yourself into a forced march though.

Keep in mind as well you can't run per the rules unless you have an unimpeded straight line path. So forests, trees, and other things at your level (unless your caster level is 14th) prevent you from running your horse into the ground.

Phantom steed is supposed to be the high-level way for wizards to be in 20 different places in one day. Teleport is simply too expensive to use that many times.
Gamebird
05-17-05, 06:06 PM Yeah, you're right, he probably should get onto me if I ride more than 8 hours. I'll be riding along roads or on top of the river. The DM has already house ruled movement that you can turn and avoid obstacles along your route (with the exception of charge), as long as you aren't doing a bunch of crazy turns. So I figure I can move at full rate most of the way.

I'll need to measure how far I'm going now. When I was lower level, I measured it out and it took 2 days to get there. It might be better now. If I could get there in 9 or 10 hours, then it would be worthwhile to force march. If it's 12 or more, then it isn't worthwhile unless it's a real emergency (which it might be, or might not - I'll find out next game).

In any case, WotC customer support got back to me and said: "Yes, the mount could do a double more[sic] or run in combat." I'm not sure why they added the "in combat" part, but I'll assume that if it can run at all, then with no Constitution score it can run constantly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gamebird 05-17-05, 10:34 AM	The spell phantom steed says it creates a steed with a speed of 20 feet/level (max 240). Would it be reasonable to say such a steed was capable of a hustle/double move per round? Would it be reasonable to say it was capable of a run (x4 move)? Can it swim and jump?
yonman 05-17-05, 12:25 PM	Well the spell doesn't conjure/summon a real creature so I'd say no it can't run. Running is a creature dependent ability that all creatures can do due to them being "alive". I see phantom steed as being more of a spell with a fixed speed.
Gamebird 05-17-05, 12:33 PM	I found that in the FAQ, it said the spell conjured a construct horse. Constructs can not run as a general trait. It strikes me as very odd though that the spell wouldn't address that specifically, especially with the potential for HUGE movement rate (960'/round).
DungeonMaster 05-17-05, 12:36 PM	I would ignore the FAQ in this case (I ignore it in all cases actually). It should be able to run.
q'afuu 05-17-05, 01:06 PM	I agree with DungeonMaster that the Steed should be able to run. I wanted to look up this FAQ entry, btw, and I couldn't find it (I searched both the 3.0 and 3.5 FAQ for 'phantom', 'steed' and 'horse' and none gave me an entry dealing with the Phantom Steed spell). Sure it was a FAQ entry, Gamebird?
Gamebird 05-17-05, 01:32 PM	This site: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=227006&page=1 Q: How does phantom steed interact with ride checks? A:phantom steed acts like a construct horse. It is immune to mind-influencing effects, crits, poisons, and the like. Ride checks are required when they represent the skill of the rider at "being on horseback," but are not required when they are made to command the horse in some way.
q'afuu 05-17-05, 01:52 PM	Um, that's an entirely unofficial FAQ which doesn't indicate where the answers come from (aside from mentioning a number of posters, but whether they answered questions or merely compiled other people's Q&As isn't clear). I appreciate the efforts made, but such a FAQ hardly constitutes an iron-clad argument. ;) Also, the answer says the Steed 'acts' like a construct horse (which means it's not one), but doesn't properly explain all the ways in which it does so (unless it's supposed to be in all ways, but it would have been a major oversight not to include that in the core rulebooks). Other point: where does it say constructs can't run?
PhaedrusXY 05-17-05, 01:56 PM	Other point: where does it say constructs can't run?Nowhere that I know of. Most golems specifically say they can't run, but as far as I know, it's not a generic trait of all constructs. It is certainly not listed under the construct traits in the SRD. I see no reason at all that a Phantom Steed couldn't run. Dragons have flight movement rates on this scale, and they can take the run action.
Gamebird 05-17-05, 02:11 PM	Well... constructs don't have a Constitution score. I thought anything without a Constitution score, including many undead, could not use the Run manuever. I can't find rules for that off hand though. Assuming a construct could run, would there be any limit to how long it could keep it up?
q'afuu 05-17-05, 02:23 PM	Well... constructs don't have a Constitution score. I thought anything without a Constitution score, including many undead, could not use the Run manuever. I can't find rules for that off hand though. Assuming a construct could run, would there be any limit to how long it could keep it up? Under that assumption, as long as it wants. Constructs are not subject to fatigue or exhaustion. The 3.5 PHB says on p. 144 that characters can run a number of rounds equal to their Con score, after which they need to start making Fort saves to continue. Perhasp that's where you got your idea from. However, constructs are immune to any effect that forces a Fort save. Check the 3.5 MM, p. 312, under Nonabilities in the Glossary: that explicitly indicates that creatures without Con score can run tirelessly unless their description says otherwise, which neither the Phantom Steed spell description nor the Construct type description do.
Gamebird 05-17-05, 02:26 PM	Okay. That's useful. The thing is, my wizard character has been using Phantom Steed to travel between cities and I know that next game there will be a definite need for me to have rules available to quote to back up that I really can do that. My exact speed might be critical.
Mellowship Slinky 05-17-05, 02:30 PM	Having things without con scores be the locomotion for traveling is pretty commen. I've had a carraige pulled by a skeletal light horse before.
Gamebird 05-17-05, 02:55 PM	So. I cast spells as 13th level, with Phantom Steed's max of 240 speed, equals a run speed of 960' per round. That's 960'/6 seconds, or 9600'/minute, which is ... 109 miles/hour. Which lasts for 13 hours for a little over 1400 miles. Assuming of course the DM doesn't nag me about riding for more than 8 hours. I figure realistically I'll have to stop for bathroom breaks and meals - at least for the others in my party (I'll be making multiple steeds). Myself, I'm gifted with a Ring of Sustenance so I'm above those things. :P
simen_88 05-17-05, 03:08 PM	Shouldn't there be some information about this in the Eberron book, under the entry for Warforged?
q'afuu 05-17-05, 05:16 PM	Warforged are not your basic constructs, they actually have a different type.
DungeonMaster 05-17-05, 05:51 PM	On a side note the DM should nag you about riding for more than 8 hours. Riding is actually tiresome. He should rule it like any other form of travel. You can ride yourself into a forced march though. Keep in mind as well you can't run per the rules unless you have an unimpeded straight line path. So forests, trees, and other things at your level (unless your caster level is 14th) prevent you from running your horse into the ground. Phantom steed is supposed to be the high-level way for wizards to be in 20 different places in one day. Teleport is simply too expensive to use that many times.
Gamebird 05-17-05, 06:06 PM	Yeah, you're right, he probably should get onto me if I ride more than 8 hours. I'll be riding along roads or on top of the river. The DM has already house ruled movement that you can turn and avoid obstacles along your route (with the exception of charge), as long as you aren't doing a bunch of crazy turns. So I figure I can move at full rate most of the way. I'll need to measure how far I'm going now. When I was lower level, I measured it out and it took 2 days to get there. It might be better now. If I could get there in 9 or 10 hours, then it would be worthwhile to force march. If it's 12 or more, then it isn't worthwhile unless it's a real emergency (which it might be, or might not - I'll find out next game). In any case, WotC customer support got back to me and said: "Yes, the mount could do a double more[sic] or run in combat." I'm not sure why they added the "in combat" part, but I'll assume that if it can run at all, then with no Constitution score it can run constantly.