Can a single shield be enchanted both offensively and defensively? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a single shield be enchanted both offensively and defensively? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tynfid
07-15-04, 07:07 AM As title

TIA

Tynfid
MystErikEry
07-15-04, 07:17 AM SRD:
Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description). A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
So, basically, yes.
CaoSlayer
07-15-04, 07:26 AM usually the normal metod it is too add spikes to the shield and echant them with independence of the shield itself.
Hypersmurf
07-15-04, 06:17 PM Originally posted by CaoSlayer
usually the normal metod it is too add spikes to the shield and echant them with independence of the shield itself.

Doesn't work, and isn't necessary. A shield can be crafted as a magic weapon; spikes added to a shield are not separate, but turn it into a spiked shield, which can also be crafted as a magic weapon.

I had a discussion with Steve from CustServ on this issue.

His initial answers are his own, but eventually he went to speak to the developers.

The messages back and forth are pasted here in sequence - red is me, blue is Steve's responses. Obviously, every blue email finished with the CustServ signature block; I've included it once at the end.

A magic shield may have up to +10 in enhancement bonuses or equivalent special abilities.

It may also be built to act as a magic weapon, adding the cost of the weapon enhancements to the cost of the shield enhancements.

A magic weapon may have up to +10 in enhancement bonuses or equivalent special abilities.

Are these two +10 limits connected, or disparate?

As an example: Could one construct a +5 Wild shield (+8 equivalent) that was also a +4 Flaming Burst weapon (+6 equivalent), where neither the shield nor the weapon bonuses broke +10? Or would this be considered a total of +14 in enhancement bonuses, and over the limit?

In either case, how should a shield with both shield enhancements and weapon enhancements be priced? Similar to a double weapon (which essentially acts as two separate items), where the costs of the two are simply added together? Or as an "item that takes up space on the body" with an additional unrelated power, for a 50% increase in the cost of the second power?

First, the shield can not have a higher then +10 total bonus, this is after you combine the spike (weapon) and the shield itself, So you could have a shield that is +2 Wild, and then a spike that is +3 with up to a +2 ability on it, but you couldn't go any higher then that, (your example with the +5 wild, and then +4 flaming burst is not possible.)

The shield mentioned above would be calculated separately, similar to that of a double weapon.

I hope this clears things up. Thanks.

I'm not talking about a spiked shield at all; simply a shield crafted as a magic bludgeoning weapon. Spikes are not necessary to grant a shield weapon bonuses.

If the shield has a +1 enhancement bonus (which does not apply to attack and damage rolls), then - since you suggest the +10 limit applies to the sum of shield and weapon bonuses - is it necessary to give the shield a 'weapon' enhancement bonus before adding weapon special abilities?

Example - the +2 Wild Shield with Flaming Burst. The shield has an enhancement bonus (+2). Does this satisfy the "must have an enhancement bonus before adding special abilities" requirement for a weapon, even though the bonus in question does not add to attack and damage rolls?

Oh, ok, sorry for the confusion,

You would not have to purchase a +1 to the attack of the shield in order to put special abilities on it, please note however that without the spike the shield is considered only armor (and not a martial weapon) and thus could not have weapon enhancements on it, (which is where the confusion was coming from, again sorry.)

I hope that better explains things.

I'm going to quote from the equipment chapter:

Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else.

Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to special attacks.

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, A HEAVY SHIELD IS A MARTIAL BLUDGEONING WEAPON. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but THE SHIELD CAN BE MADE INTO A MAGIC WEAPON IN ITS OWN RIGHT.

Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to special attacks.

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, A LIGHT SHIELD IS A MARTIAL BLUDGEONING WEAPON. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but THE SHIELD CAN BE MADE INTO A MAGIC WEAPON IN ITS OWN RIGHT.

Shield Spikes: When added to your shield, these spikes TURN IT INTO A MARTIAL PIERCING WEAPON that increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you. You can’t put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack (see above). An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but A SPIKED SHIELD CAN BE MADE INTO A MAGIC WEAPON IN ITS OWN RIGHT.

******

It explicitly states that shields are martial bludgeoning weapons, and can be made into magic weapon in their own right, entirely independently of the entry on shield spikes.

And in the entry on shield spikes, it does not say that the spikes can be made into magic weapons, but that the spikes change the damage type of the shield from bludgeoning to piercing, and that the SPIKED SHIELD (not the spikes, but the spiked shield) can be made into a magic weapon. Just as, without the spikes, it is the shield that can be made into a weapon.

I can't see where the confusion is coming from - a shield can be made into a weapon, with or without spikes.

You are correct that it is considered a martial weapon when used that way, however for purposes of anything else it is not a weapon. Under the shield spikes it states, when added to your shield these spikes turn it into a martial piercing weapon that increases the damage dealt by a shield bash.

You are correct that you do not need the spike to add bonuses to the attack, those costs are added up separately and the total could still not go above +10.

So... for attacking, or for turning it into a magic weapon, a shield is considered a weapon, but not for anything else?

... uh... what else is there?

Correct, I understand it is quite odd, and being a DM myself I would definitely change this if a player was designing a character for this. But a shield is only a shield, it is not a weapon, it is considered one only for the purpose of if you are proficient with it when attacking, it can be enhanced to get bonus to attack and damage but it would not be able to get weapon special qualities because it is still not a weapon.

Again, has a DM I would probably make exceptions for players that really would like to do this for part of their character designs (and not to make the most broken character they can) but for an answer I can only give what's in the books, I do hope this helps. thanks for your patience.

The DMG section on Magic Shields states "A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon".

A magic weapon can have enhancement bonuses and special abilities.

Surely, then "A shield could be built that also acted as "something that can have enhancement bonuses and special abilities?

Especially given that "Shield, Light", "Spiked Shield, Light", "Shield, Heavy", and "Spiked Shield, Heavy" all appear on the Table of Martial Weapons in the Equipment chapter of the PHB?

I will make you a deal, currently everyone else is out today, I will
check on this first thing in the morning and give you a response,
you may very well be correct (you put up a good argument). And I
would like to make certain with the RPGA judges and the R&D
department. So let me ask them tomorrow and I should be able to get
an answer to you sometime then, Deal?

Fair enough :)

(I'm interested to hear what they feel on the +10 or +10/+10 limit, too :) )

Sure thing, I will check on that too, :)

A few days later, he came back with the response from the R&D department:

Hey there, got the answer, so you can have a shield that has +10 defensive total enhancements (or higher if epic) and +10 total enhancement offensive (again higher if epic) they are costed separately, so if you have a +5 shield and want to give it +1 to attack then you would only need to pay the 2000 gp. However in order to give it something like flaming burst or such you would have to give it that +1 to the offense first.

Sorry for the delay, tracking down R&D members that can answer specific questions like this can be tough, again thanks for your patience.

********************************
Steve
Wizards of the Coast Customer Service
Website: http://www.wizards.com
Game Support E-Mail: custserv@wizards.com
Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496
Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 6 PM PST
Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500
Tech Support: (425) 687-2156
Please quote this e-mail in any reply.
**AOL MEMBERS MUST COPY AND PASTE PREVIOUS E-MAIL CONTENT.
AOL DOES NOT DO THIS AUTOMATICALLY**
********************************

Take from it what you will.

-Hyp.
cwslyclgh
07-15-04, 06:22 PM so thats how you get Custserv to give good answers... you badger them into asking the designers ;)
Hypersmurf
07-15-04, 06:27 PM Originally posted by cwslyclgh
so thats how you get Custserv to give good answers... you badger them into asking the designers ;)

I think the key is finding something they say in each response that is demonstrably contradicted by the RAW, and nitpick at it.

When they reply to that, find something in that response, and nitpick at it.

Make 'Ask the designers!' feel like it's their idea.

I remember someone once pointing out that Custserv's answers could be trusted, because they work 'ten metres from the line developers', and could ask someone about a tricky question.

But it seems that in most cases, they don't... unless you put them in a situation where they feel so confused they have no other option ;)

-Hyp.
BlackSmith
07-15-04, 07:15 PM Hyp.
...you are Evil!

(but you know that already)

Why cant i get any response from them ever?
Seeker95
07-15-04, 10:47 PM My first reaction was to say no to a +10 defense / +10 offense shield. But since you cannot use it as both in the same round, it's no different than having a +10 shield and a +10 sword.

(Except that you can use the +10 shield and +10 sword in the same round!)
Hypersmurf
07-15-04, 10:49 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
My first reaction was to say no to a +10 defense / +10 offense shield. But since you cannot use it as both in the same round, it's no different than having a +10 shield and a +10 sword.

(Except that you can use the +10 shield and +10 sword in the same round!)

IMPROVED SHIELD BASH [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency.
Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC.
Normal: Without this feat, a character who performs a shield bash loses the shield’s shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Shield Bash as one of his fighter bonus feats.

-Hyp.
Seeker95
07-15-04, 11:02 PM Using a Feat to accomplish this is a fair trade off.
Hypersmurf
07-15-04, 11:05 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
Using a Feat to accomplish this is a fair trade off.

Fair enough.

I'd have just said "The rules say you can craft a shield as a magic weapon in its own right," and not worried about justifying it because you can't use both properties in the same round, etc :)

-Hyp.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tynfid 07-15-04, 07:07 AM	As title TIA Tynfid
MystErikEry 07-15-04, 07:17 AM	SRD: Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description). A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC. So, basically, yes.
CaoSlayer 07-15-04, 07:26 AM	usually the normal metod it is too add spikes to the shield and echant them with independence of the shield itself.
Hypersmurf 07-15-04, 06:17 PM	Originally posted by CaoSlayer usually the normal metod it is too add spikes to the shield and echant them with independence of the shield itself. Doesn't work, and isn't necessary. A shield can be crafted as a magic weapon; spikes added to a shield are not separate, but turn it into a spiked shield, which can also be crafted as a magic weapon. I had a discussion with Steve from CustServ on this issue. His initial answers are his own, but eventually he went to speak to the developers. The messages back and forth are pasted here in sequence - red is me, blue is Steve's responses. Obviously, every blue email finished with the CustServ signature block; I've included it once at the end. A magic shield may have up to +10 in enhancement bonuses or equivalent special abilities. It may also be built to act as a magic weapon, adding the cost of the weapon enhancements to the cost of the shield enhancements. A magic weapon may have up to +10 in enhancement bonuses or equivalent special abilities. Are these two +10 limits connected, or disparate? As an example: Could one construct a +5 Wild shield (+8 equivalent) that was also a +4 Flaming Burst weapon (+6 equivalent), where neither the shield nor the weapon bonuses broke +10? Or would this be considered a total of +14 in enhancement bonuses, and over the limit? In either case, how should a shield with both shield enhancements and weapon enhancements be priced? Similar to a double weapon (which essentially acts as two separate items), where the costs of the two are simply added together? Or as an "item that takes up space on the body" with an additional unrelated power, for a 50% increase in the cost of the second power? First, the shield can not have a higher then +10 total bonus, this is after you combine the spike (weapon) and the shield itself, So you could have a shield that is +2 Wild, and then a spike that is +3 with up to a +2 ability on it, but you couldn't go any higher then that, (your example with the +5 wild, and then +4 flaming burst is not possible.) The shield mentioned above would be calculated separately, similar to that of a double weapon. I hope this clears things up. Thanks. I'm not talking about a spiked shield at all; simply a shield crafted as a magic bludgeoning weapon. Spikes are not necessary to grant a shield weapon bonuses. If the shield has a +1 enhancement bonus (which does not apply to attack and damage rolls), then - since you suggest the +10 limit applies to the sum of shield and weapon bonuses - is it necessary to give the shield a 'weapon' enhancement bonus before adding weapon special abilities? Example - the +2 Wild Shield with Flaming Burst. The shield has an enhancement bonus (+2). Does this satisfy the "must have an enhancement bonus before adding special abilities" requirement for a weapon, even though the bonus in question does not add to attack and damage rolls? Oh, ok, sorry for the confusion, You would not have to purchase a +1 to the attack of the shield in order to put special abilities on it, please note however that without the spike the shield is considered only armor (and not a martial weapon) and thus could not have weapon enhancements on it, (which is where the confusion was coming from, again sorry.) I hope that better explains things. I'm going to quote from the equipment chapter: Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else. Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to special attacks. Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, A HEAVY SHIELD IS A MARTIAL BLUDGEONING WEAPON. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but THE SHIELD CAN BE MADE INTO A MAGIC WEAPON IN ITS OWN RIGHT. Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to special attacks. Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, A LIGHT SHIELD IS A MARTIAL BLUDGEONING WEAPON. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but THE SHIELD CAN BE MADE INTO A MAGIC WEAPON IN ITS OWN RIGHT. Shield Spikes: When added to your shield, these spikes TURN IT INTO A MARTIAL PIERCING WEAPON that increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you. You can’t put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack (see above). An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but A SPIKED SHIELD CAN BE MADE INTO A MAGIC WEAPON IN ITS OWN RIGHT. **** It explicitly states that shields are martial bludgeoning weapons, and can be made into magic weapon in their own right, entirely independently of the entry on shield spikes. And in the entry on shield spikes, it does not say that the spikes can be made into magic weapons, but that the spikes change the damage type of the shield from bludgeoning to piercing, and that the SPIKED SHIELD (not the spikes, but the spiked shield) can be made into a magic weapon. Just as, without the spikes, it is the shield that can be made into a weapon. I can't see where the confusion is coming from - a shield can be made into a weapon, with or without spikes. You are correct that it is considered a martial weapon when used that way, however for purposes of anything else it is not a weapon. Under the shield spikes it states, when added to your shield these spikes turn it into a martial piercing weapon that increases the damage dealt by a shield bash. You are correct that you do not need the spike to add bonuses to the attack, those costs are added up separately and the total could still not go above +10. So... for attacking, or for turning it into a magic weapon, a shield is considered a weapon, but not for anything else? ... uh... what else is there? Correct, I understand it is quite odd, and being a DM myself I would definitely change this if a player was designing a character for this. But a shield is only a shield, it is not a weapon, it is considered one only for the purpose of if you are proficient with it when attacking, it can be enhanced to get bonus to attack and damage but it would not be able to get weapon special qualities because it is still not a weapon. Again, has a DM I would probably make exceptions for players that really would like to do this for part of their character designs (and not to make the most broken character they can) but for an answer I can only give what's in the books, I do hope this helps. thanks for your patience. The DMG section on Magic Shields states "A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon". A magic weapon can have enhancement bonuses and special abilities. Surely, then "A shield could be built that also acted as "something that can have enhancement bonuses and special abilities? Especially given that "Shield, Light", "Spiked Shield, Light", "Shield, Heavy", and "Spiked Shield, Heavy" all appear on the Table of Martial Weapons in the Equipment chapter of the PHB? I will make you a deal, currently everyone else is out today, I will check on this first thing in the morning and give you a response, you may very well be correct (you put up a good argument). And I would like to make certain with the RPGA judges and the R&D department. So let me ask them tomorrow and I should be able to get an answer to you sometime then, Deal? Fair enough :) (I'm interested to hear what they feel on the +10 or +10/+10 limit, too :) ) Sure thing, I will check on that too, :) A few days later, he came back with the response from the R&D department: Hey there, got the answer, so you can have a shield that has +10 defensive total enhancements (or higher if epic) and +10 total enhancement offensive (again higher if epic) they are costed separately, so if you have a +5 shield and want to give it +1 to attack then you would only need to pay the 2000 gp. However in order to give it something like flaming burst or such you would have to give it that +1 to the offense first. Sorry for the delay, tracking down R&D members that can answer specific questions like this can be tough, again thanks for your patience. **************************** Steve Wizards of the Coast Customer Service Website: http://www.wizards.com Game Support E-Mail: custserv@wizards.com Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496 Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 6 PM PST Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500 Tech Support: (425) 687-2156 Please quote this e-mail in any reply. AOL MEMBERS MUST COPY AND PASTE PREVIOUS E-MAIL CONTENT. AOL DOES NOT DO THIS AUTOMATICALLY ****************************** Take from it what you will. -Hyp.
cwslyclgh 07-15-04, 06:22 PM	so thats how you get Custserv to give good answers... you badger them into asking the designers ;)
Hypersmurf 07-15-04, 06:27 PM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh so thats how you get Custserv to give good answers... you badger them into asking the designers ;) I think the key is finding something they say in each response that is demonstrably contradicted by the RAW, and nitpick at it. When they reply to that, find something in that response, and nitpick at it. Make 'Ask the designers!' feel like it's their idea. I remember someone once pointing out that Custserv's answers could be trusted, because they work 'ten metres from the line developers', and could ask someone about a tricky question. But it seems that in most cases, they don't... unless you put them in a situation where they feel so confused they have no other option ;) -Hyp.
BlackSmith 07-15-04, 07:15 PM	Hyp. ...you are Evil! (but you know that already) Why cant i get any response from them ever?
Seeker95 07-15-04, 10:47 PM	My first reaction was to say no to a +10 defense / +10 offense shield. But since you cannot use it as both in the same round, it's no different than having a +10 shield and a +10 sword. (Except that you can use the +10 shield and +10 sword in the same round!)
Hypersmurf 07-15-04, 10:49 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 My first reaction was to say no to a +10 defense / +10 offense shield. But since you cannot use it as both in the same round, it's no different than having a +10 shield and a +10 sword. (Except that you can use the +10 shield and +10 sword in the same round!) IMPROVED SHIELD BASH [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Shield Proficiency. Benefit: When you perform a shield bash, you may still apply the shield’s shield bonus to your AC. Normal: Without this feat, a character who performs a shield bash loses the shield’s shield bonus to AC until his or her next turn. Special: A fighter may select Improved Shield Bash as one of his fighter bonus feats. -Hyp.
Seeker95 07-15-04, 11:02 PM	Using a Feat to accomplish this is a fair trade off.
Hypersmurf 07-15-04, 11:05 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Using a Feat to accomplish this is a fair trade off. Fair enough. I'd have just said "The rules say you can craft a shield as a magic weapon in its own right," and not worried about justifying it because you can't use both properties in the same round, etc :) -Hyp.