Can a sorcerer learn to cast heal spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a sorcerer learn to cast heal spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
soggy
10-08-05, 07:45 PM After recently having my fighter killed off in a campaign, I was interested in pursuing the sorcerer class as that I have not played it before. I understand the basics of spell lists but I also found what appears to be a loop-hole of sorts in regards to learning spells not on the list.
Upon reaching a new level, the sorcerer is able to learn spells from an arcane scroll or spellbook with careful study beforehand. So, being that Bards cast only arcane spells and that THEY are able to cast heal spells, does it not hold true that a sorcerer would also be able to aquire such knowledge for use? I would expect strong limitations and perhaps costs(as well as the DM's permission, as the book states) but it does appear, to me, to be in the range of possibility. Again, I fully understand the balance of the game and its different classes, but if not...then what does this loophole refer to? I found nothing that prohibits the learning of heal spells in the book.
Ske
10-08-05, 07:53 PM Where do you see sorcerers being able to learn from books/scrolls? Sorcerers don't learn spells 'from' anything, they have an innate ability for magic. Magic, which is selected from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, not the bard's.
d_nychus
10-08-05, 08:00 PM The book/scroll thing does exist. It's a bit of flavor text in the PHB for how a sorcerer might learn a non-standard spell, like a character-created one.

I guess if a DM really doesn't see that as a big deal, it's okay, but for the game in general, it's not recommended by the DMG.
soggy
10-08-05, 08:01 PM like I said, there is a what looks to be a loophole. I understand how the sorcerer gets his spell normally, what I'm talking about is an exception to the rule. page 179 of the player's handbook touches on it.
spectralphoenix
10-08-05, 08:05 PM The current rules (PHB 54) say that you may learn an unusual Sor/Wiz spel, such as one from another book.You might be able to argue that you can use the Extra Spell feat (CA 79-80) to learn a non-arcane spell, but that's using a very loose interpretation of the rules.
Phantom Lord
10-08-05, 08:08 PM If bards can cast arcane healing spells, I don't see why a sorcerer couldn't. It seems plain as day to me, according to the flavor text, and seeing as how a sorcerer gets such a limited number of spells and such a limited number/day, I would allow it.

Scenario: 4th level Sorc. 6 lvl 1 spells, 3 lvl 2. If he uses even 3 of the level 1 spells on healing (that's 3d8+3, or an average of 16.5 hp) then he has done away with nearly 1/3 of his offensive potential for the day. He would be a one-hit wonder at that rate: one battle per day, then he needs to rest.
TheGogmagog
10-08-05, 08:30 PM Again, I fully understand the balance of the game and its different classes, but if not...then what does this loophole refer to? I found nothing that prohibits the learning of heal spells in the book.
You will find no answer here, it's 100% up to your DM. There are comments that you referenced, and a feat 'extra spell' that are written in a way that could be interpreted as to allow a sorcerer or wizard to add a spell to thier spell list.

IF your DM choses to allow you to add a non sor/wiz spell to your spell list, then your DM needs to assign a sor/wiz level to that spell. If you notice not all classes gain acess to the same spell at the same level, so it's reasonable that your DM may choose to have cure light wounds be cleric 1, druid 1, bard 1, paladin 1, sorcerer 3.

I take very fact that no book describs how to assign a spell level when adding it to a class list, is a good indicator that it's not intened. You can get all the arugments you want here, but you won't find anything written that will say you can learn healing spells, at least not without some excogitated interpretation.

Oh, I think there is a feat or prestige class that grans an arcane caster a cleric domain and cast from that domain list. So there are exlicit ways that it can be done, but not just by in-game actions like studying a scroll.
TheGogmagog
10-08-05, 08:34 PM If bards can cast arcane healing spells, I don't see why a sorcerer couldn't. It seems plain as day to me, according to the flavor text, and seeing as how a sorcerer gets such a limited number of spells and such a limited number/day, I would allow it.

Scenario: 4th level Sorc. 6 lvl 1 spells, 3 lvl 2. If he uses even 3 of the level 1 spells on healing (that's 3d8+3 correction: 3d8+12, or an average of 16.5 hp) then he has done away with nearly 1/3 of his offensive potential for the day. He would be a one-hit wonder at that rate: one battle per day, then he needs to rest.If sorcerers were intended to be able to cast any spell, why have a class list at all? It wasn't intended. I do agree that it is a sub-optimal choice for a sorcerer, and will probably regret the choice. Although it's not intended, I would allow it with a feat because of that. The real advantage of taking the feat is that it would allow you to use cure light wands, which is the best bargain in healing.
soggy
10-08-05, 08:42 PM I was thinking that perhaps the sorcerer is a bit more versatile than other classes in this sense.
and since the book suggests that it is possible to add spells, on a limited basis, that are not on the spell list for wiz/sor, I am wondering which spells the book may be referring to...there is an actual example in the book, I just don't have it in front of me, it's just before the spell lists.
PS. thanks for your candid advice.
gbnogkfs
10-08-05, 08:54 PM sorcerers can learn new sorcerer spells from scrolls or spellbooks (provided they have free slots); the problem is that healing spells are NOT sorcerer spells.

no loophole, really. :confused:
TheGogmagog
10-08-05, 09:08 PM I was thinking that perhaps the sorcerer is a bit more versatile than other classes in this sense.
and since the book suggests that it is possible to add spells, on a limited basis, that are not on the spell list for wiz/sor, I am wondering which spells the book may be referring to...there is an actual example in the book, I just don't have it in front of me, it's just before the spell lists.
PS. thanks for your candid advice.
I believe that they are referring to spells that are published in adventures and optional matierial that have a sor/wiz level assinged, but arn't techinally in the PHB sor/wiz list for the class. Some believe that it refers to spells that are typically restricted to clans and such (Agazarrs Schorcher from Forgotten Realms is tightly protected by the Red Wizards of Thay). There are some who think it means you can learn cleric spells.
Borris
10-08-05, 09:50 PM There's one way to do this easily, and without using any questionable rule interpretation. Take 4 ranks of Knowledge (religion) with your sorcerer. This can be done by 5th level by going cross-class or by 2nd-level if you take your first level in a class like Bard, Cleric or Wizard.

Then, as soon as you can (at 6th or 3rd level, respectively), take the Arcane Disciple (Healing) feat from Complete Divine. This will add all the spells of the Healing domain to your sorcerer spell list. You can then pick them as your next spells known and cast them spontaneously.
primemover003
10-08-05, 10:29 PM Or even easier than Borris's Path and cheaper by a feat...

You're a Sorcerer Right? As Charisma is your prime ability you should invest in Use Magic Device enough to make activating a Wand (DC 20) easy and pick up a Wand of CLW or a Staff of Healing.
runestar
10-08-05, 10:34 PM Since the closest thing to a healing spell a sorc/wiz has is one that heals a target at the expense of damaging themselves(sort of like an inverse vampiric touch), it can be inferred that they were never meant to acquire healing spells outside of a few, very specific scenarios, such as via arcane disciple feat, and even those come with sufficient limitations to balance them out.

I would personally never allow a wiz/sorc to learn curative spells, or acquire them via feats such as extra spell feat. But that's just me. If your dm gives you the green light, then all the better for your campaign. :)

Just my 2 cents.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
soggy 10-08-05, 07:45 PM	After recently having my fighter killed off in a campaign, I was interested in pursuing the sorcerer class as that I have not played it before. I understand the basics of spell lists but I also found what appears to be a loop-hole of sorts in regards to learning spells not on the list. Upon reaching a new level, the sorcerer is able to learn spells from an arcane scroll or spellbook with careful study beforehand. So, being that Bards cast only arcane spells and that THEY are able to cast heal spells, does it not hold true that a sorcerer would also be able to aquire such knowledge for use? I would expect strong limitations and perhaps costs(as well as the DM's permission, as the book states) but it does appear, to me, to be in the range of possibility. Again, I fully understand the balance of the game and its different classes, but if not...then what does this loophole refer to? I found nothing that prohibits the learning of heal spells in the book.
Ske 10-08-05, 07:53 PM	Where do you see sorcerers being able to learn from books/scrolls? Sorcerers don't learn spells 'from' anything, they have an innate ability for magic. Magic, which is selected from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, not the bard's.
d_nychus 10-08-05, 08:00 PM	The book/scroll thing does exist. It's a bit of flavor text in the PHB for how a sorcerer might learn a non-standard spell, like a character-created one. I guess if a DM really doesn't see that as a big deal, it's okay, but for the game in general, it's not recommended by the DMG.
soggy 10-08-05, 08:01 PM	like I said, there is a what looks to be a loophole. I understand how the sorcerer gets his spell normally, what I'm talking about is an exception to the rule. page 179 of the player's handbook touches on it.
spectralphoenix 10-08-05, 08:05 PM	The current rules (PHB 54) say that you may learn an unusual Sor/Wiz spel, such as one from another book.You might be able to argue that you can use the Extra Spell feat (CA 79-80) to learn a non-arcane spell, but that's using a very loose interpretation of the rules.
Phantom Lord 10-08-05, 08:08 PM	If bards can cast arcane healing spells, I don't see why a sorcerer couldn't. It seems plain as day to me, according to the flavor text, and seeing as how a sorcerer gets such a limited number of spells and such a limited number/day, I would allow it. Scenario: 4th level Sorc. 6 lvl 1 spells, 3 lvl 2. If he uses even 3 of the level 1 spells on healing (that's 3d8+3, or an average of 16.5 hp) then he has done away with nearly 1/3 of his offensive potential for the day. He would be a one-hit wonder at that rate: one battle per day, then he needs to rest.
TheGogmagog 10-08-05, 08:30 PM	Again, I fully understand the balance of the game and its different classes, but if not...then what does this loophole refer to? I found nothing that prohibits the learning of heal spells in the book. You will find no answer here, it's 100% up to your DM. There are comments that you referenced, and a feat 'extra spell' that are written in a way that could be interpreted as to allow a sorcerer or wizard to add a spell to thier spell list. IF your DM choses to allow you to add a non sor/wiz spell to your spell list, then your DM needs to assign a sor/wiz level to that spell. If you notice not all classes gain acess to the same spell at the same level, so it's reasonable that your DM may choose to have cure light wounds be cleric 1, druid 1, bard 1, paladin 1, sorcerer 3. I take very fact that no book describs how to assign a spell level when adding it to a class list, is a good indicator that it's not intened. You can get all the arugments you want here, but you won't find anything written that will say you can learn healing spells, at least not without some excogitated interpretation. Oh, I think there is a feat or prestige class that grans an arcane caster a cleric domain and cast from that domain list. So there are exlicit ways that it can be done, but not just by in-game actions like studying a scroll.
TheGogmagog 10-08-05, 08:34 PM	If bards can cast arcane healing spells, I don't see why a sorcerer couldn't. It seems plain as day to me, according to the flavor text, and seeing as how a sorcerer gets such a limited number of spells and such a limited number/day, I would allow it. Scenario: 4th level Sorc. 6 lvl 1 spells, 3 lvl 2. If he uses even 3 of the level 1 spells on healing (that's 3d8+3 correction: 3d8+12, or an average of 16.5 hp) then he has done away with nearly 1/3 of his offensive potential for the day. He would be a one-hit wonder at that rate: one battle per day, then he needs to rest.If sorcerers were intended to be able to cast any spell, why have a class list at all? It wasn't intended. I do agree that it is a sub-optimal choice for a sorcerer, and will probably regret the choice. Although it's not intended, I would allow it with a feat because of that. The real advantage of taking the feat is that it would allow you to use cure light wands, which is the best bargain in healing.
soggy 10-08-05, 08:42 PM	I was thinking that perhaps the sorcerer is a bit more versatile than other classes in this sense. and since the book suggests that it is possible to add spells, on a limited basis, that are not on the spell list for wiz/sor, I am wondering which spells the book may be referring to...there is an actual example in the book, I just don't have it in front of me, it's just before the spell lists. PS. thanks for your candid advice.
gbnogkfs 10-08-05, 08:54 PM	sorcerers can learn new sorcerer spells from scrolls or spellbooks (provided they have free slots); the problem is that healing spells are NOT sorcerer spells. no loophole, really. :confused:
TheGogmagog 10-08-05, 09:08 PM	I was thinking that perhaps the sorcerer is a bit more versatile than other classes in this sense. and since the book suggests that it is possible to add spells, on a limited basis, that are not on the spell list for wiz/sor, I am wondering which spells the book may be referring to...there is an actual example in the book, I just don't have it in front of me, it's just before the spell lists. PS. thanks for your candid advice. I believe that they are referring to spells that are published in adventures and optional matierial that have a sor/wiz level assinged, but arn't techinally in the PHB sor/wiz list for the class. Some believe that it refers to spells that are typically restricted to clans and such (Agazarrs Schorcher from Forgotten Realms is tightly protected by the Red Wizards of Thay). There are some who think it means you can learn cleric spells.
Borris 10-08-05, 09:50 PM	There's one way to do this easily, and without using any questionable rule interpretation. Take 4 ranks of Knowledge (religion) with your sorcerer. This can be done by 5th level by going cross-class or by 2nd-level if you take your first level in a class like Bard, Cleric or Wizard. Then, as soon as you can (at 6th or 3rd level, respectively), take the Arcane Disciple (Healing) feat from Complete Divine. This will add all the spells of the Healing domain to your sorcerer spell list. You can then pick them as your next spells known and cast them spontaneously.
primemover003 10-08-05, 10:29 PM	Or even easier than Borris's Path and cheaper by a feat... You're a Sorcerer Right? As Charisma is your prime ability you should invest in Use Magic Device enough to make activating a Wand (DC 20) easy and pick up a Wand of CLW or a Staff of Healing.
runestar 10-08-05, 10:34 PM	Since the closest thing to a healing spell a sorc/wiz has is one that heals a target at the expense of damaging themselves(sort of like an inverse vampiric touch), it can be inferred that they were never meant to acquire healing spells outside of a few, very specific scenarios, such as via arcane disciple feat, and even those come with sufficient limitations to balance them out. I would personally never allow a wiz/sorc to learn curative spells, or acquire them via feats such as extra spell feat. But that's just me. If your dm gives you the green light, then all the better for your campaign. :) Just my 2 cents.