Can a summoned monster be charmed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a summoned monster be charmed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gavagai
11-06-05, 12:24 PM In our last session, a player charmed a demon summoned by the BBEG. I let it pass, but afterwards, we had an argument whether a charm could override the compulsion to act according to the wishes of the caster of the summon monster spell.

Same problem goes for bound demons - is their pact for servitude weak enough to allow a demon to be charmed or dominated?

Thnks
Seeker95
11-06-05, 02:07 PM Yes. A summoned monster can be charmed if the same creature, unsummoned, could be charmed.

Ditto on the demon.
Tenreo
11-06-05, 03:20 PM Well. charm makes the charmed creature Friendly towards the user. So the question is: would a summoned creature still attack someone it considerers a friend if so ordered? If so, charming won't help. If not, it might work.
Tenreo
11-06-05, 03:28 PM Well. charm makes the charmed creature Friendly towards the user. So the question is: would a summoned creature still attack someone it considerers a friend if so ordered? If so, charming won't help. If not, it might work.
Ryll
11-06-05, 09:16 PM A summoned monster will attack whatever, or whomever, the caster tells it to, barring things like protection spells. The creature does not have free will. Now if the caster said kill everything in the room that is not me, and you cast charm on it (and succeed), it may save you for last, but when you are all that is left, it will follow its summoners orders.

At least that is how I understand those spells to work.
Seeker95
11-06-05, 09:24 PM But to answer the original question... yes, it can be charmed.
As others have noted, this won't necessarily save you from being its next target.
He Who Lurks
11-06-05, 11:41 PM Alright, so charms seem clear enough, but what about compulsions? Let's say a wizard summons some outsider. He tells it, "Pick up that barrel." I don't want that barrel picked up, so I use dominate monster on the summoned creature and tell it, "Do NOT pick up that barrel." Does the creature pick up the barrel?

Personally, I would say it does. This isn't based on any rule, just my own opinion. Either the compulsion would simply fail, or the creature would be instantly banished, as only the summoner's will binds it to this plane, and breaking free from the summoner causes the summoning to fail.

I'm interested to hear other people's ideas on this, however. How would the rest of you rule?
jaelis
11-06-05, 11:54 PM I'd say in that case that the summoner and the dominator would need to make opposed charisma checks to see whose orders are obeyed. I don't know if that's in the PHB anywhere, but I think it might have been in a Rules of the Game article. (That's assuming that the summoner essentially has a domination-like effect over the monster initially.)
mbfu3k
11-07-05, 01:53 AM Opposed charisma checks, as per Combining Magical Effects: Multiple Mental Control Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/magicOverview.htm%23stackingEffects)
gavagai
11-07-05, 04:47 PM So, the jist of what everyone is saying is you can charm a summoned or bound creature, but you only affect its actions as long as it is not required to cotradict the commands of the spell caster in charge. If you're spell, however, is a compulsion instead of a mere charm, you can roll opposed charisma checks to see whether you best the spellcaster in charge.

BTW: compulsions dont relate to anything like "sounding convincing" to me... why would two spellcasters vying for control always use charisma checks? Shouldnet they use their spellcasting stats instead, as a proxy to magical prowress? Or maybe a caster level check? I am just thinking that Sorcerers appear to have quiet an advantage here... :rolleyes:

Thanks for all answers so far, folks
Shatteredtower
11-08-05, 08:17 AM why would two spellcasters vying for control always use charisma checks?Because it's a test to see whose presence is more overwhelming.

I am just thinking that Sorcerers appear to have quiet an advantage here... :rolleyes: And why is that bad? Is it any worse than the fact that bards are going to be just as good at this game?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gavagai 11-06-05, 12:24 PM	In our last session, a player charmed a demon summoned by the BBEG. I let it pass, but afterwards, we had an argument whether a charm could override the compulsion to act according to the wishes of the caster of the summon monster spell. Same problem goes for bound demons - is their pact for servitude weak enough to allow a demon to be charmed or dominated? Thnks
Seeker95 11-06-05, 02:07 PM	Yes. A summoned monster can be charmed if the same creature, unsummoned, could be charmed. Ditto on the demon.
Tenreo 11-06-05, 03:20 PM	Well. charm makes the charmed creature Friendly towards the user. So the question is: would a summoned creature still attack someone it considerers a friend if so ordered? If so, charming won't help. If not, it might work.
Tenreo 11-06-05, 03:28 PM	Well. charm makes the charmed creature Friendly towards the user. So the question is: would a summoned creature still attack someone it considerers a friend if so ordered? If so, charming won't help. If not, it might work.
Ryll 11-06-05, 09:16 PM	A summoned monster will attack whatever, or whomever, the caster tells it to, barring things like protection spells. The creature does not have free will. Now if the caster said kill everything in the room that is not me, and you cast charm on it (and succeed), it may save you for last, but when you are all that is left, it will follow its summoners orders. At least that is how I understand those spells to work.
Seeker95 11-06-05, 09:24 PM	But to answer the original question... yes, it can be charmed. As others have noted, this won't necessarily save you from being its next target.
He Who Lurks 11-06-05, 11:41 PM	Alright, so charms seem clear enough, but what about compulsions? Let's say a wizard summons some outsider. He tells it, "Pick up that barrel." I don't want that barrel picked up, so I use dominate monster on the summoned creature and tell it, "Do NOT pick up that barrel." Does the creature pick up the barrel? Personally, I would say it does. This isn't based on any rule, just my own opinion. Either the compulsion would simply fail, or the creature would be instantly banished, as only the summoner's will binds it to this plane, and breaking free from the summoner causes the summoning to fail. I'm interested to hear other people's ideas on this, however. How would the rest of you rule?
jaelis 11-06-05, 11:54 PM	I'd say in that case that the summoner and the dominator would need to make opposed charisma checks to see whose orders are obeyed. I don't know if that's in the PHB anywhere, but I think it might have been in a Rules of the Game article. (That's assuming that the summoner essentially has a domination-like effect over the monster initially.)
mbfu3k 11-07-05, 01:53 AM	Opposed charisma checks, as per Combining Magical Effects: Multiple Mental Control Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/magicOverview.htm%23stackingEffects)
gavagai 11-07-05, 04:47 PM	So, the jist of what everyone is saying is you can charm a summoned or bound creature, but you only affect its actions as long as it is not required to cotradict the commands of the spell caster in charge. If you're spell, however, is a compulsion instead of a mere charm, you can roll opposed charisma checks to see whether you best the spellcaster in charge. BTW: compulsions dont relate to anything like "sounding convincing" to me... why would two spellcasters vying for control always use charisma checks? Shouldnet they use their spellcasting stats instead, as a proxy to magical prowress? Or maybe a caster level check? I am just thinking that Sorcerers appear to have quiet an advantage here... :rolleyes: Thanks for all answers so far, folks
Shatteredtower 11-08-05, 08:17 AM	why would two spellcasters vying for control always use charisma checks?Because it's a test to see whose presence is more overwhelming. I am just thinking that Sorcerers appear to have quiet an advantage here... :rolleyes: And why is that bad? Is it any worse than the fact that bards are going to be just as good at this game?