Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Demose 04-12-05, 01:34 AM	As a DM i deal with rule dilemmas all the time, :confused: but this one caught me off guard My girlfriend wanted to be a vampire since she started and guess what i did, sent one to drain her. I'm planning on making her wait a while for the other players to catch up with her level adjustment (she is using a stereotypical goth style bard/dirge singer just for kicks at the moment.) But she got this painfully creative idea... Why not use the ring of three wishes with one wish left to wish for the negative effects of her vampirism to dissapear! i honestly didnt see that one coming. So she will be able to walk in the sunlight and have no aversion to holy symbols or water... In my opinion this bumps up the level adjustment atleast 3 notches... should i make her wait longer since i know her plan, should i let her just go for it, or should i weazle my way out of it. Hope you guys can help. :D
Draco Obscura 04-12-05, 01:40 AM	If she does this, pull the evil DM card, and remove the positive aspects of her vampirism as well. I know she's your gf, but still.
Demose 04-12-05, 01:46 AM	Thought about messing with the way she worded the wish... but considering she scored a perfect 800 on the english section of her SAT... i doubt she will make a mistake, *sigh* oh what fun :P
Greyman 04-12-05, 01:46 AM	The Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) articals began with an eight level Vampire Template Class. This would allow your girlfriend to acquire the full level adjustment gradually as she earns XP, keeping her in step with the effective class level of the rest of the party, rather than making her wait. (Also take a look into Libris Mortis. It has several feats which a vampiric character would find useful, including Endure Sunlight that enables a light sensitive undead to resist becoming ashes for a few rounds.) Wish has limitations built in as to what it can grant, and permanantly eliminating all the weaknesses of vampirism would be well out of its reach. No spell that it can duplicate, and no item it can create, can do such.
calypso 04-12-05, 01:49 AM	As a DM i deal with rule dilemmas all the time, :confused: but this one caught me off guard My girlfriend wanted to be a vampire since she started and guess what i did, sent one to drain her. I'm planning on making her wait a while for the other players to catch up with her level adjustment (she is using a stereotypical goth style bard/dirge singer just for kicks at the moment.) But she got this painfully creative idea... Why not use the ring of three wishes with one wish left to wish for the negative effects of her vampirism to dissapear! i honestly didnt see that one coming. So she will be able to walk in the sunlight and have no aversion to holy symbols or water... In my opinion this bumps up the level adjustment atleast 3 notches... should i make her wait longer since i know her plan, should i let her just go for it, or should i weazle my way out of it. Hope you guys can help. :D That is clearly more powerful than the "safe" uses of wish. Therefore, you are allowed to use the "Twisted Wish" card. Basically, you can't allow the wish. Even if you say "Well, that bumps the level adjustment up 2 levels, but okay." then you just gave her effectively two free levels. More than likely, I would deal with this by, like Draco said, removing the positive and negative aspects. For instance, if she says "I wish I wasn't vulnerable to sunlight." then poof. She's back to being human. Or simply say the wish failed. They do that sometimes. Calypso
Demose 04-12-05, 01:59 AM	Wow, thanks for all the help, but i think im going with Greyman and the progression charts, in conjunction with the [error wish failed] idea. now... to warn her of the awry wish or just let em waste it... oh then her and the cleric will fight for the last one the cleric holds. that could get interesting.
Heironymus_Vann 04-12-05, 03:03 AM	That's simply wayyy beyond the capability of a wish spell. Consider: Let's say we permitted a very, very liberal interpretation of a "shapechange" spell, where we could create an "anything goes" mix, like "vampire sans drawbacks" - it would still be a 9th level spell with a 10 min/lvl duration. Now, a wish spell is also 9th level, and can duplicate any spell of 8th level... even given our insanely liberal reading of shapechange, we are overpowering wish if we allow it to permit duplication of a 9th level spell, and it's even MORE overboard to make it not just a permanent spell effect but inherent (nondispellable). In principle, a Master Transmogrofast (sp?) could make Shapechange an "at will" ability by taking a 17th lvl spell slot (with inherent spell or whatever that CA feat is called) and he could tailor it to avoid the drawbacks - so you can figure that you are letting her use a Wish to duplicate a 17th level spell... WAY over the top. (Sorry for the sketchy terminology, I don't have books at hand at the moment.) In other words, no way is she going to get a wish to grant her this. I might say that the wish could be used to free her from her master vampire's control - though "in character" she might not be able to bring herself to desire or wish this... That said, Libris Mortis has many spells, etc. that can help her be a more "functional" vampire. HV
quaiven 04-12-05, 04:57 AM	I agree that this is beyond the limits of a wish spell, but if you wanna go with it, check Libris Mortis it has a Half-vampire template in it (ala Blade).
runestar 04-12-05, 06:33 AM	See if she is willing to continue advancing in the vampire lord prc. It grants immunities/resistance to traditional vampire resistances and plenty of cool new powers. Look for it somewhere on the wotc dnd website(under monster mayhem), I think. Oh, it has cr+3 but no LA, so you have your homework cut out for you. :) I am not sure how to go about adjudicating this aspect of wish. If sunlight was a major inhibiting factor in your game, then maybe +2. Else, perhaps a +1 will suffice.
Sir Ferdinand 04-12-05, 07:10 AM	So she will be able to walk in the sunlight and have no aversion to holy symbols or water... I think the best a Wish could do here is to give some small resistance against sunlight, holy symbols/water etc. Like +1 Turning resistance. But sicne I don't even know how sunlight affects Vampires, I'd better not to talk about it.
MrkGrismer 04-12-05, 09:29 AM	Personally, IMC, whenever somebody uses a wish spell to do something not on the "safe list" I check the safe list and see if the wish would be able to accomplish what is asked using what is on the safe list. For instance, with a lycanthrope wishing to get rid of the disadvantages would result in a remove curse from the wish (simple enough). Disadvantages gone, no lycanthropy. :D Wishing for the disadvantages to be gone from vampirism is more difficult, because remove curse doesn't cure it. But plane shift -> Negative Energy Plane pretty much takes care of it.
Sproik 04-12-05, 09:58 AM	Wow. I am surprised at the reactions... Suggesting that a wish is more likely to make a vampire into a living being again than make it a more powerful vampire seems quite odd. I would have thought curing somone of being a vampire would really be rather a useful thing to be able to do - and much more difficult than merely making them immune to sunlight (for example). If I wanted to twist a wish of this nature, I might encase the target in solid earth or something (presto, immune to daylight). Or transport them to another plane of existence where it is always night and there are no clerics (and nothing to do, of course).
quaiven 04-12-05, 10:04 AM	Curing someone of vampirism is easy. Step 1: Destroy the vampire (running water, stake, sunlight, etc) Step 2: Resurrection
calypso 04-12-05, 10:08 AM	If I wanted to twist a wish of this nature, I might encase the target in solid earth or something (presto, immune to daylight). Or transport them to another plane of existence where it is always night and there are no clerics (and nothing to do, of course). That's the standard, and is a bit vicious for this case. I reserve the "entombed below the earth" for wishes such as "I wish I was immune to all damage." Calypso
tarkin 04-12-05, 10:17 AM	I agree. Wishes have SEVERE limitations. I personally think both spells should be renamed Limited Wish -> Minor Wish. Wish -> Limited Wish. Then fools would stop going around thinking that you can Wish for anything you want and get it. Please keep in mind that a Wish is NOT powerfull enough to duplicate another 9th level spell. Forget about what you think a "wish" can do. Instead think about how much a 9th level spell can do. Would you allow a 9th level spell to have unlimited duration and protect a vampire against all it's weaknesses? Of course not, that is clearly too much. So there is no way a Wish could do that. But a Wish IS powerfull enough to turn a vampire alive, or to transport them to a place where their weaknesses don't matter, or to kill them. So if those are the only ways to fulfill her wish, that is what she gets.
runestar 04-12-05, 11:30 AM	Or maybe wish could provide your gf with a lifetime supply of sunblock.
Odin_666 04-12-05, 12:14 PM	if she uses the words positive and negative in her wording of the wish, don't use the words from her point of view, but from a society point of view :D so, all the Vampire-Weaknesses are positive, but the special attacks (Blood Drain, Energy Drain, Create Spawn,...) are negative. (I would let her the Special Qualities, cause they are no direct harm) :D :D :D
MrkGrismer 04-12-05, 12:33 PM	Curing someone of vampirism is easy. Step 1: Destroy the vampire (running water, stake, sunlight, etc) Step 2: Resurrection Actually, I believe Libris Mortis says resurrection can be used on undead without them being destroyed first, so good point. Also there is reincarnation, always fun. :D
Bane 04-12-05, 12:35 PM	Have the Wish Plane Shift her to the Plane of Shadow. No sunlight.
Loren Pechtel 04-12-05, 11:28 PM	The easiest path for the wish to take is to resurrect her.
The Simbul 04-13-05, 01:18 AM	Thought about messing with the way she worded the wish... but considering she scored a perfect 800 on the english section of her SAT... i doubt she will make a mistake, *sigh* oh what fun :PPlayers do not cast Wish spells, Characters do. The intellect and wisdom of most players are not often the same as the intellect and wisdom of their characters, therefore the fact that a player can word a wish spell like a legal thesis paper doesnt mean that the character can do the same.
epifreak 04-13-05, 01:34 AM	Hmm.....what about not removing all of the drawbacks, but removing some. For instance, have her prioritize what effects she wants gone, and give her one or two from that list. Don't let her completely suffer no drawbacks, simply nix the sun problem, or better yet: utilize twisted wish in an extremely unusual manner. She can walk around in the sun with no problems, at night, however, the moonlight turns her to stone, unless she takes proper precautions, such as a caskett. Actually, nix my first idea and use that.
glowworm 04-13-05, 02:18 AM	Players do not cast Wish spells, Characters do. The intellect and wisdom of most players are not often the same as the intellect and wisdom of their characters, therefore the fact that a player can word a wish spell like a legal thesis paper doesnt mean that the character can do the same. however it also means that my with my meger above average IQ and carefully worded wish dosent come close to my wizard's worded wish as his int is nigh into the 30's and if i with above average witch translates into a 13ish score what then? :confused:
calypso 04-13-05, 02:24 AM	Players do not cast Wish spells, Characters do. The intellect and wisdom of most players are not often the same as the intellect and wisdom of their characters, therefore the fact that a player can word a wish spell like a legal thesis paper doesnt mean that the character can do the same. however it also means that my with my meger above average IQ and carefully worded wish dosent come close to my wizard's worded wish as his int is nigh into the 30's and if i with above average witch translates into a 13ish score what then? :confused: Then you get a Knowledge(Arcana) check to realize your wish could be twisted and backfire. Calypso
IceFractal 04-13-05, 03:00 AM	Sure, you can decide, as a DM, that Wish simply fails to accomplish effects beyond the safe ones, but I prefer to say that the safe effects are just that - the effects that can safely be accomplished the way the caster wants. Personal Wish rules:You can wish for anything, anything at all. What happens exactly depends on where the wish is coming from. Casting it yourself: You can accomplish the "safe" effects without any problems. For other effects, you have a choice when phrasing your wish - you can either phrase it cautiously or unbounded. If phrased cautiously, the wish is never twisted, but is only accomplished to the extent that the spell can do safely. That means that wishing for invincibility might just grant you temporary DR. If phrased in an unbounded fashion, the spell will accomplish it's effect, short of breaking down the structure of the plane, but you might not like the results, as the spell will seek the path of least effort and may twist your words. Wishing for invincibility might entomb you under the earth, in stasis. Casters with great enough knowledge and cunning may be able to achieve greater effects in a more gradual fashion - basically twisting probability towards a certain end. This would require a Spellcraft and one or more Knowledge checks, specifics dependant on individual case. Casting from a ring: Same as casting it yourself, but you don't get to choose cautious/unbounded - the creator of the ring decides that. Hostile granting power (Efreet, for instance): Even when using the "safe" effects the wish will be twisted to a minor extent. When wishing for effects beyond that, your wish will be twisted in a very unpleasant way. As for this case, there's always several ways to do things. Let's take the "suffer no ill effects from daylight" wish as an example: Simple Way: She's immune to daylight for a few days, but then the wish starts wearing off, starting with light vulnerabilty (ala Drow), and then damage; eventually wearing off completely. Alternate: She doesn't become immune to daylight, but gains some slight resistance to it, similar to the feat from Libris Mortis. Trade-Off: She's immune to daylight, but now suffers the daylight effects from something equally common - moonlight by itself wouldn't be enough, but maybe moonlight as well as alchemical light sources could be. Mildly Twisted: She never suffers daylight effects, because there's always a storm centered on her, 24 hours a day. The storm makes her more noticeable and acts as a beacon for foes, as well as possibly flaring up into a hurricane or severe lightning at inopportune moments. Evilly Twisted: There's so many ways to do this - entombment in the earth, permanent transportation to the plane of shadow, being turned into some other kind of creature entirely, a "cloak of shadow" that also renders her blind (including special senses) and can't be removed, and so forth. Subtle: The wish gives her information on how to become a Vampire Lord (probably involving some lengthy quests), or how to gain an artifact that shields against daylight (again, something that would take a while to accomplish).
sooperspook 04-13-05, 03:42 AM	Wish can make magic items right? Isn't there a magic item that allows a vampire to walk around in daylight? an amulet i believe. so just make the wish create one magic item (which takes up a slot) per penalty neutralized. or if the items are too expensive then just one of them appears, and she has to use a few more wishes to make the rest.
wonderland666 04-13-05, 06:39 AM	How is this: she is surrounded by a permanent deeper Darknees.
MrkGrismer 04-13-05, 07:43 AM	Wish can make magic items right? Isn't there a magic item that allows a vampire to walk around in daylight? an amulet i believe. so just make the wish create one magic item (which takes up a slot) per penalty neutralized. or if the items are too expensive then just one of them appears, and she has to use a few more wishes to make the rest. It can, but like mundane items the safe limit is 25,000 gp and the end of the wish description gives the (exhorbabant) extra xp cost for doing so (I believe it is *2+5000 xp)
dantedarkstar 04-13-05, 08:12 AM	I would say that Immunity to Sunlight would be simple Darkness spell permanent on her (permanent just like Permanency spell, so watch out for dispels). Alternatively if could be permanent Darkness that comes back 1d4 rounds after being dispelled. Remember in 3.5 that Darkness no longer create absolute darkness, just a really deep shadow. If you use 3.0, you could still use 3.5 Darkness as an effect of her wish (as it's less severe as drawback than absolute darkness).
ready jedi pilot 04-13-05, 03:22 PM	I'm not to sure on the limits of the wish spell cause in one of the forgotten realms articles a lich bound a river permanently to a new course with a wish so it can be powerful. One of the most common problem with people with the wish spell is that they use it as a more expensive permanency for example using it with greater arcane sight so they can see all magic or worse with shapechange so they can change shape at will
runestar 04-13-05, 10:55 PM	There's a spell in LOD that grants immunity to detrimental effects of sunlight, super short duration though. Maybe you could use wish to create a permanent version of it or something.
Demose 04-14-05, 12:49 AM	Wow, i love all of your responses! Im not going to entomb her in the earth... because of personal reasons (just remember she is my girlfriend and her character is the most interesting character i have ever had on the team.) Her intelligence score is pretty on par with her own so im screwed there. I like the darkness effect that enshrouds her... but i truly dont want to detrement her with the effects since she is a Rake aswell (Seductress from the BoEF). Kinda hard to seduce when they cant see you. She wasnt too happy about leveling up in a vampire class but im going to be firm on that one and it would make for some damn interesting situations during the game (she doesnt like the no BaB or saves increases). That ring was made by a very powerful gnome in the outlands, so it could give damn near anything. So far it has been used to get the cleric a trained hippogriff and restore my girlfriends character after a horrible accident with the deck of many things. Im thinking that she could just wish for the feat in the libris mortis book (i have to book but i need to look it up again.) And maybe having it direct her to an artifact that fixes the whole water problem. Probobly have it take away the garlic aversion, but leave the holy symbol and staking problem since she does happen to be undead and a stake to the heart would kill her if it didnt just make her comatose. Im really looking forward to her becoming a full grown vampire since Dominate in conjunction with Seduction would be just plain scary... i mean she is the party leader right now but after that... *whistle* I think it would be funny for her little drow slave to have to protect her from vampire hunters (lol thats a long story, but on his very first game he became so indebted to her that he became her slave and maid... Lol he said that was the best time he as ever had and has been coming back ever since.) Thank you for all of your input! Its really helped me out and it makes it so she doesnt need to make her character dissapear for 8 levels. I think this will make things alot better.
dantedarkstar 04-14-05, 03:59 AM	I like the darkness effect that enshrouds her... but i truly dont want to detrement her with the effects since she is a Rake aswell (Seductress from the BoEF). Kinda hard to seduce when they cant see you. That's why I said to use 3.5 Darkness effect here even if you play 3.0. It's just a sphere of deep shadow, not absolute blackness. You CAN see there (but everything has effectively concealment).
gianthobbit 04-14-05, 11:56 AM	Funny that this post came up. I too have a vampire character in my adventrue and he used a ring of three wishes. But behind the veteran he knew not to wish for to much. So far he used the ring to be free of his master, and lastly to be able to enter homes with out authority from someone. These to me as a DM all valid uses of the Wish spell. I hate it when DM get evil grins and thinks about how they can screw a player when they cast a wish spell. It is after all the most non-epic spell that a mage can cast.