Post/Author/DateTime	Post
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 09-02-05, 09:37 PM	I understand that a wish spell can boost your ability score, and do a bunch of other stuff. But I was wondering can a wish spell grant you a feat or no?
Xanthia 09-02-05, 09:44 PM	It depends on the feat, I suppose. I'd allow a 17th level caster to gain Alertness or Improved Initiative as a feat thru a Wish spell, but certainly not Whirlwind Attack or Greater Weapon Specialization.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 09-02-05, 10:03 PM	Well I would assume that as long a player already had the prerequistes for the feat they could take it. I mean a PC whose goal is to be the greatest swordsmen in the world and he already had a bunch of feat and made the wish "I want to be a greater swordsmen." I could see him being given Whirlwind attack or something like that. If anyone else can give me an idea about this I would appreciate it.
Keenath 09-02-05, 10:15 PM	It's really a DM call on that. It depends on the feat... I wouldn't go for it, myself, but I'm not your DM.
Seeker95 09-02-05, 11:09 PM	Keenath said exactly what I was going to say. 1. Depends on your DM. 2. Not in my campaign. 3. I'm not your DM. But I would probably let you swap out a Feat, provided you qualified for all of its prerequisites.
Bopple 09-02-05, 11:17 PM	You can swap feats with a 4th lvl psionic power. That means you can hire a psion or do it by yourself with Limited Wish. Though I don't think I would allow granting feats.
Moon-Lancer 09-02-05, 11:59 PM	would you happen to know the name of that power?
Bopple 09-03-05, 12:09 AM	It is Psychic Reformation.
smrtgmp 09-03-05, 05:03 AM	Definately a DM's call. I allow it, for the following reason and with the following restrictions: Reason: Over the course of 20 levels, any character gets at least 7 feats. Over those same levels, you get 5 ability score increases. As such, I am of the opinion that the game designers concider an ability increase to be more valuable than a feat. Restrictions: 1) Only non-epic feats may be obtained in such a manner. 2) You must posess all the prerequisites for a feat if you wish to use it. If you wish for a feat for which you do not meet the prerequisites, you gain the feat but cannot use it until such a time that you meet the requirements. 3) You may only gain 5 feats through the use of wish (one feat per wish). I also adjucate it on a feat by feat basis. If you want a feat which I concider to be too powerful, I wont allow it. However, I'm not a complete monster. I'll let you know it wont work ahead of time so that you dont waste the 5000xp. The only exception to this is if I am trying to teach a munchkin PC a lesson. However, since munckins generally dont get invited back to a second session at my table, this has yet to come up.
Raven Dark 09-03-05, 10:07 AM	Definately a DM's call. I allow it, for the following reason and with the following restrictions: I would do the same thing except I would have them wish in succession for every feat after the first, kind of like ability scores. Thus... ...1 Wish nets first feat. ...2 Wishes net the second feat. ...3 Wishes net the third feat, etc. After all, a charcter with lots of feats is far more powerful than a character with less.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 09-03-05, 03:24 PM	I didn't think about that with the ability increase using wish. Out of all the ideas I think you have the best idea on how to do it Smrtgmp. This has actually made my mind with the question. Thanx.
Seeker95 09-03-05, 06:21 PM	Reason: Over the course of 20 levels, any character gets at least 7 feats. Over those same levels, you get 5 ability score increases. As such, I am of the opinion that the game designers concider an ability increase to be more valuable than a feat.Although this likely does not change your position, I would argue that the opposite is true. I am of the opinion that the game designers consider a Feat to be more valuable than a Stat Increase Reasons: They give fewer ability increases as a function of character advancement because there are many other sources for ability increase. There are spells that grant ability increases to each of the abilities. There are existing magic items (and pricing guidelines) for ability score increases.My conclusion is that the designers provided more character-advancement Feats than Ability Score Increases because this is the only manner in which Feats can easily be gained.
Rutibex 09-04-05, 01:38 AM	I say it is more than able to grant a feat, and here's my reasoning: One feat is worth a +3 bonus to a skill (skill focus). A magic item that takes up no space on the body and gives a +3 to a skill costs 1800 gold and is well within the realm of a Wish. Cost out any other feat that could be duplicated by an item, they are all about the same. An item could be lost (unlike a feat, in most cases) but the vast differance in prices (1800gp vs. the 25,000gp that Wish is capable of producing) more than balances it.
ishpu 09-04-05, 02:13 AM	i look at it this way, you can get a stat increase at every four levels and you can get em from wish, and feats come around every three levels so they must be worth less than ability increases so i see no problem with getting a free feat that you have the prereqs for, i think i'd limit it to only maybe 2 or three feats you could gain from multiple castings though.
aelryinth 09-04-05, 03:06 AM	I'd allow them. I'd call them Inherent Feats, you'd have to have the Pre-Reqs for them, and you'd get a maximum of 5, just like you would for any specific Statistic. Granting a feat is just as powerful, not moreso, then granting an ability score increase (Epic Feat, +1 to Stat of choice). Since they don't stack, I'd allow one Wish per Feat, pay all costs involved, and you get the 5 max. And by the way of saying pay all costs, I'd probably force the character to pay the XP cost for the Wish. But then, I let people pay XP for feats in my game, too. Inherent Feats are no more broken then INherent Ability score bonuses, and won't occur until the late game anyways. Besides, it is MUCH cheaper then a wish to get magic items which duplicate or even grant feats. ===Aelryinth
Votan 09-04-05, 03:17 AM	Although this likely does not change your position, I would argue that the opposite is true. I am of the opinion that the game designers consider a Feat to be more valuable than a Stat Increase Reasons: They give fewer ability increases as a function of character advancement because there are many other sources for ability increase. There are spells that grant ability increases to each of the abilities. There are existing magic items (and pricing guidelines) for ability score increases.My conclusion is that the designers provided more character-advancement Feats than Ability Score Increases because this is the only manner in which Feats can easily be gained. I agree with this reasoning but I would allow a single inherent feat. One. Casting a new wish spell (even rapidly in succession) merely allows the character to swap out an inherent feat. If the character wished for a feat for which he did not haev the prerequsites I would allow it so long as he burned a regular feat as well. So if an INT 10 fighter wanted combat expertise and was at level 15 (eligible for a new feat) I'd allow him to use the wish spell to overcome the requirements and learn that feat. If he later wished for another feat, that previous one would become inactive until another wish was used or the slot was changed via psychic reformation.
Wrin777 09-07-05, 10:56 AM	Remember everyone, one EPIC feat is equal to one ability score increase.
Seeker95 09-07-05, 11:05 AM	Remember everyone, one EPIC feat is equal to one ability score increase.True. But that's because Epic Feats are not as good as regular Feats. Epic "rules" are NOT D&D, insofar as they require you to forget everything you learned playing pre-epic D&D and completely re-invent your world to explain how suddenly there are epic creatures and god-killers in the world today, that were not there yesterday. I prefer a scaled-from-normal progression into post-20th-level play.
smrtgmp 09-07-05, 02:14 PM	They give fewer ability increases as a function of character advancement because there are many other sources for ability increase.There are also many other means of aquiring feats. For one, several classes grant a number of bonus feats. There are spells that grant ability increases to each of the abilities.There certainly are. However, the duration of such spells prevents them from affecting more than a single encounter at a time (generally speaking). There are existing magic items (and pricing guidelines) for ability score increases.Quite a few items mimic the effects of feats as well. My conclusion is that the designers provided more character-advancement Feats than Ability Score Increases because this is the only manner in which Feats can easily be gained.Given my responses above, obviously I disagree. There are numerous ways to gain extra feats, and, generally speaking, once you've got them, they're yours for the rest of your characters life (the exception being items which grant/mimic feats). Conversely, the various methods you described for enhancing ones ability scores are either temporary or dependant on magical items, which take up both item slots and gold (not that they arent worth the investment). Compare the number of classes that grant bonus feats to the number of classes that grant ability increases. I think you will find that the former are far more numerous than the latter.
Algorithm_X 09-07-05, 02:34 PM	A feat is more powerful than just a +1 in an ability. Note that your character wouldn't actually wish for a "feat" because feats are a game mechanic term. they would have to ask for what the feat grants them which is possible through multiple routes. Cleave for instance is possible to gain as a magic weapon ability. (I wish for the ability to cleave down my opponents like wheat.) May get you a +1 adamantine scythe or sickle with the mighty Cleave ability and bane against your most common foe type/subtype (price roughly 21,000gp). Of course with out detect magic up, and an identify spell you might be pretty disappointed when a scythe or sickle appears in your hand. Don't assume that if your request is good intentioned, (and from a benign source) and is doable with the confines of the spell that the DM is screwing you because you didn't get what you expected. (a common assumption) How can you request a "feat" IC? The "ability to track"? That could get you and Onyx dog, 15,500gp (which can track for you because it has scent). The perfect selection of a 25,000gp or less magic item can solve most problems.
Seeker95 09-07-05, 02:39 PM	There are also many other means of aquiring feats. For one, several classes grant a number of bonus feats.You must take the class (passing up many other options in doing so) to gain the Feat. As such, the Feats are not available to "anyone". As such, they are inherently limited. However, the duration of such spells prevents them from affecting more than a single encounter at a time (generally speaking).But as an existing spell, the opportunity for replication in magic items is available to everyone within the existing core rules and magic item creation guidelines.Quite a few items mimic the effects of feats as well.Define "quite a few". The very few that mimic Feats are uniquely priced or are based on a spell that also mimics the Feat.Compare the number of classes that grant bonus feats to the number of classes that grant ability increases. I think you will find that the former are far more numerous than the latter.You are comparing the number of *mutually exclusive sources*. You must choose one class over another, sacrificing the benefits of all other choices. And once you choose a single Feat, you have sacrificed all other Feats. Further, for many Feats, you must have already have certain ability scores, professions, and even other Feats, thereby narrowing the population that can qualify. Feats require that you give up all other options at the time you make your Feat choice. You can't go back and change your mind. It is a permanent, option-limiting choice. An ability score increase is available to ALL classes. The magic items that grant the increases are available to every race, class and profession. The only limiting factor is money. Get more money, and you can increase the same ability or increase another ability. No matter how you compare Ability Score increases and Feats, the Feat comes up in short supply in a single character. Its rarity in spell mimicry, existing magic items, racial bonuses, and magic item pricing guidelines further demonstrates that the Feat is more valuable than an Ability Score increase.
smrtgmp 09-07-05, 06:16 PM	You must take the class (passing up many other options in doing so) to gain the Feat. As such, the Feats are not available to "anyone". As such, they are inherently limited.And you need to take specific class levels to gain access to the spells which boost stats. Whats your point? Define "quite a few". The very few that mimic Feats are uniquely priced or are based on a spell that also mimics the Feat.You are comparing the number of *mutually exclusive sources*.Using only examples from the SRD (meaning only items out of the DMG and XPH), there are the following items which mimic a feat: DMG: shields of arrow catching or bashing; keen, mighty cleaving and throwing weapons; all the metamagic rods and the golem manuels. XPH: sundering weapons. I would call that quite a few, especially since there are only 2 items to boost each stat (the enhancement itmes and the inherent items). Start adding splat books and there are several other options at your disposal, such as precise bows and the like. You must choose one class over another, sacrificing the benefits of all other choices. This would be true if only a single class offered bonus feats, but that is clearly not the case. There are classes and PrCs which mesh well with just about any build imaginable that grant bonus feats. You can't go back and change your mind. It is a permanent, option-limiting choice.Not true. Psychic Reformation and limited wish/wish can be used to swap out feats whenever you like. Furthermore, once you choose to increase a stat when you level up, you cant change that choice, so even if you play in a game that doesnt allow any means to swap out a feat, the fact that you cant chage your stat increases makes that a moot point, IMO. An ability score increase is available to ALL classes.As are feats. And since you get more feats than you do stat increases... No matter how you compare Ability Score increases and Feats, the Feat comes up in short supply in a single character.No matter how you compare it? For any character? This is clearly false. Several classes get more feats than ability increases. Its rarity in spell mimicry, existing magic items, racial bonuses, and magic item pricing guidelines further demonstrates that the Feat is more valuable than an Ability Score increase.Obviously, I disagree, which is why I said from the get go that its up the DM to decide weather or not to allow it.
cre100382 09-08-05, 06:02 PM	Would you allow one or more wish spells to learn an additional invocation for a warlock.
Merestil Haye 09-08-05, 07:16 PM	Would you allow one or more wish spells to learn an additional invocation for a warlock.While I am not wholly decided on whether Wish can grant a feat, if this can be done, Wish can certainly grant a Warlock a new invocation of up to one less than the highest grade the Warlock can cast, since there is a feat that can do that. Whether it can grant a Dark invocation I have not decided. Probably not unless you allow Wish to grant Epic feats.
Quirriff 09-08-05, 10:15 PM	Wishes shouldn't be a commodity taken lightly. A DM has to use his best judgment, the gods do not like it when mortals use wishes, so sometimes they alter it.
Seeker95 09-08-05, 10:38 PM	the gods do not like it when mortals use wishes, so sometimes they alter it.Except the gods have nothing to do with wishes. Gods grant miracles and have complete control over them. The gods have no control over a wish. But the DM does.
Quirriff 09-08-05, 11:25 PM	But gods are omniscient and thus like. "I wish to be as strong as a giant"; and the evil god of giants turns the person into a giant as punishment, they can still interfere with wishes. They might not invoke the wishes but they can interfere with them.
Votan 09-09-05, 08:34 AM	While I am not wholly decided on whether Wish can grant a feat, if this can be done, Wish can certainly grant a Warlock a new invocation of up to one less than the highest grade the Warlock can cast, since there is a feat that can do that. Whether it can grant a Dark invocation I have not decided. Probably not unless you allow Wish to grant Epic feats. I'd agree with this. I'd continue my policy of only one inherent feat slot. That would prevent certain types of abuse by Warocks (or sorcerers fro that matter) that could get out of hand otherwise.
Seeker95 09-09-05, 10:41 AM	But gods are omniscient and thus like. "I wish to be as strong as a giant"; and the evil god of giants turns the person into a giant as punishment, they can still interfere with wishes. They might not invoke the wishes but they can interfere with them.If you have the gods intervening in the lives of the PCs this way in your campaign, more power to you. But I think the god(s) that the wisher does worship might have a few things to say about some god-of-giants intervening in the wish of one of his or her own worshippers. There are too many campaigns with Elminsters running around in the lives of the PCs. I don't need the gods of every pantheon stepping in when an arcane wish is being granted.
Wrin777 09-09-05, 01:45 PM	*sigh* The recent ROtG article on adjuticating Wish covered this. The gods do not grant wishes in 3rd+ edition, but there is almost always something that does. A powerful djinn for instance might be doing the granting, or the nearest archdevil. The alternatives are to make Wish something that can ONLY do the things listed in the book because it is a spell designed to warp reality in those specific ways, or to have Wish be basically like any other spell that either works or doesn't and is simply a measure of the caster's strength rather than the player's ability to avoid the pitfalls of an incredibly powerful but risky spell. I generally go with the ruling that the nearest being who CAN grant the wish requested is the one who has the final say, and if the wish will be warped it will be done by them. 2nd edition wish worked a lot like this. Also, I've never had trouble with my players abusing Wish or Miracle the way I use them. Wish is risky and often leads to the Monkey's Paw effect, but when it works it's worth it.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 09-13-05, 12:59 PM	how is it that asking for a feat from a wish abusing it? I look to players handbook for the XP board. Over the course of 20 levels, you get 5 ability score adjustments (oddly enough when using wish you can only increase any one attribute by 5). Now you do however get 6 feats, plus whatever you get from your class, which says to me that depending on the class you take using wish to gain more can either be a boon or a waste. But the simple fact remains that in the basics feats remain less important then an ability score (and mind you, you can increase each attribute by 5, meaning a total 30+ wishes). So yeah I would say that it would be possible for a person to gain feats by using wishes. Now mind you this would most likely not be used by fighters or psychic warriors, or any other class that gives multiple bonus feats.
evangelion1010 09-13-05, 03:52 PM	Keep in mind that a +1 stat from a book is 27,500 gp... and that applies to any such stat, +1 to +5, and that 5 +1 stat books = 1 +5 stat book, execpt one takes much less time to read. I'd say some feats are more valuable than that... Then again basically granting permant, free alertness is 10,000 with an ioun stone...the only condition being that you must not let it be grabbed...
Seeker95 09-13-05, 04:47 PM	free alertness is 10,000 with an ioun stone...the only condition being that you must not let it be grabbed...Or dispelled, or shattered or entering into an AMF, all of which a Feat through wish would not be subject to.