Can a wizard and cleric cooperate to make a scroll? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a wizard and cleric cooperate to make a scroll? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
netwilly
08-12-04, 09:09 AM The DMG has vague language explaining two spellcasters can cooperate to craft a magic item. Can a wizard scribe a scroll of cure light woulnds, w/ his cleric budy casting the spell?
Beamup
08-12-04, 09:12 AM Yes. As long as somebody has the feat and somebody has the spell, you can do it.
Harmor
08-12-04, 11:42 AM He is correct. However note that the person with the feat for the item is the one who pays the XP cost.

You could even cast the spell from a scroll or item btw.
Seeker95
08-12-04, 12:14 PM Scribe it? Yes.
Use it? No.
Hypersmurf
08-12-04, 07:45 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
Scribe it? Yes.
Use it? No.

Note that the Cleric couldn't use it either, but the Bard could.

Scrolls are either arcane or divine, depending on the creator.

The creator is the wizard, therefore the scroll is arcane. (The cleric is not the creator, merely someone supplying a prerequisite.)

The wizard cannot use an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds; CLW is not on his class list.

The cleric cannot use an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds; he can only use divine scrolls.

The bard can use an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds, though - he's an arcane caster with CLW on his list.

-Hyp.
netwilly
08-12-04, 09:49 PM But it's a divine spell. It was cast by a cleric.

Tangent Discussion: Assuming there was no dispute and it is a divine scroll, could a ranger cast it even though for him it would normally be a second level ranger spell. Would he need a scroll of Ranger, 2nd Level CLW?
Hypersmurf
08-12-04, 09:58 PM Originally posted by netwilly
But it's a divine spell. It was cast by a cleric.

Doesn't matter.

"The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)"

The wizard is creating the scroll. The cleric can't - he doesn't have the feat. He just supplies the spell.

The type of scroll the wizard creates is determined by his class - arcane. Therefore, he's making an arcane scroll of the spell supplied by the cleric. The fact that the cleric casts it as a divine spell is irrelevant, based on the rules for scrolls.

Tangent Discussion: Assuming there was no dispute and it is a divine scroll

If we had a Cleric with the Scribe Scroll feat, for example. Cool.

could a ranger cast it even though for him it would normally be a second level ranger spell. Would he need a scroll of Ranger, 2nd Level CLW?

No, he can cast from it just fine. It's a divine scroll of a spell on his list. The level of the spell is irrelevant. He could have a problem if his caster level is lower than the scroll's caster level, of course. (But nobody ever makes a scroll of CLW with a caster level higher than 1... for the price of one 1d8+2 scroll, you could scribe two 1d8+1 scrolls!)

-Hyp.
Dlgood
08-12-04, 10:42 PM Of course, a Rouge with Use Magic Device could use such a scroll. As could a Mystic Theurge. Or a multi-classed caster.
Hypersmurf
08-12-04, 10:52 PM Originally posted by Dlgood
Of course, a Rouge with Use Magic Device could use such a scroll.

Or anyone else with Use Magic Device, for that matter.

As could a Mystic Theurge. Or a multi-classed caster.

That's not so clear.

For example, a Cleric 17/Wizard 1 can use a divine scroll of Miracle (CL 17) with no problem. It's on his cleric spell list, and his Cleric caster level is 17.

But what if it's an arcane scroll of Meteor Swarm (CL 17)? It's on his wizard spell list... but his wizard caster level is only 1. Can he use his cleric caster level?

I'd say no - he has to make a caster level check using his wizard caster level.

Likewise, if a Theurge picks up an arcane scroll of CLW, I'd require him to have CLW on the spell list of an arcane class to be able to use it.

-Hyp.
Loren Pechtel
08-14-04, 12:42 AM Originally posted by Hypersmurf

Likewise, if a Theurge picks up an arcane scroll of CLW, I'd require him to have CLW on the spell list of an arcane class to be able to use it.

-Hyp.

I can't see a justification for this. Said Theurge can make the scroll on his own if he wants to (assuming such a thing exists at all), he certainly should be able to use it.
Seeker95
08-14-04, 12:47 AM Originally posted by Loren Pechtel
I can't see a justification for this. Said Theurge can make the scroll on his own if he wants to (assuming such a thing exists at all), he certainly should be able to use it. First, I would say he couldn't make it. To make a scroll, you must have the spell prepared. Neither a cleric nor a wizard can prepare an arcane cure light wounds. But *if* you are going to allow it, he sure as hell can't cast it. Neither clerics nor wizards can cast an arcane cure light wounds spell, regardless of what house rules you've twisted to let them make it.
Heron_Marked_Blade
08-14-04, 12:58 AM Originally posted by Loren Pechtel
I can't see a justification for this. Said Theurge can make the scroll on his own if he wants to (assuming such a thing exists at all), he certainly should be able to use it. Point is that it's an arcane scroll of cure light wounds, and no one except for a bard has CLW as an arcane spell. The Theurge could use the scroll if it was a divine scroll of cure light wounds, because he has CLW on his divine spell list. That's why the Theurge can't use an arcane scroll of cure light wounds. Only a bard can.
Hypersmurf
08-14-04, 03:50 AM Originally posted by Seeker95
First, I would say he couldn't make it.

Oh, he can make it just fine. He has wizard levels, and so he can scribe arcane scrolls. He gets the spell supplied by a cleric... who just happens to be himself.

But I don't think he can use it once he's finished.

-Hyp.
Shatteredtower
08-14-04, 04:54 AM Originally posted by Hypersmurf
Oh, he can make it just fine. He has wizard levels, and so he can scribe arcane scrolls. He gets the spell supplied by a cleric... who just happens to be himself.

But I don't think he can use it once he's finished.

-Hyp.

If he's also the cleric, of course he can. After all, it's not like he's a wizard with the Scribe Scroll feat and a cleric without it. It would amount to the same thing as ruling that a fighter/rogue couldn't benefit from the Cleave feat while performing a sneak attack because it was acquired as a fighter bonus feat.

Going by the most literal interpretation of a wizard scribing a scroll for a cleric, the results can be used by neither class. Such a result is nonsensical, and any further discussion of the matter is academic, serving no practical game purpose. The only sensible ruling is that either the wizard can't assist a cleric (or druid or adept) in creating the scroll or the supplier of the spell is treated as the spell's creator for purposes of determining the creator's class.

Otherwise you wind up with the possibility of arcane scrolls of raise dead, which can't be used by any spellcasters at all, unless they have the Use Magic Device skill -- which means that their best hope of using the scroll is again to be a bard (or a rogue, even without caster levels). How am I supposed to treat a position like that seriously, regardless of how well one can argue for it based on the rules as written?
Hypersmurf
08-14-04, 05:10 AM Originally posted by Shatteredtower
If he's also the cleric, of course he can. After all, it's not like he's a wizard with the Scribe Scroll feat and a cleric without it.

That's a different argument.

He can certainly choose to scribe it as a divine scroll, since he's a cleric. But if he wants to, since he's a wizard, he can scribe it as an arcane scroll... in which case he can't use it, but a bard can.

Going by the most literal interpretation of a wizard scribing a scroll for a cleric, the results can be used by neither class.

That's right.

Otherwise you wind up with the possibility of arcane scrolls of raise dead, which can't be used by any spellcasters at all, unless they have the Use Magic Device skill.

That's right.

-Hyp.
Seeker95
08-14-04, 08:22 AM [double post]
Seeker95
08-14-04, 08:24 AM Originally posted by Hypersmurf
But if he wants to, since he's a wizard, he can scribe it as an arcane scroll...I disagree. He cannot scribe an arcane cure light wounds because neither he nor the cleric can prepare an arcane CLW.

The wizard cannot *change* the spell he is scribing.
The cleric cannot change the spell he is providing.
Hypersmurf
08-14-04, 08:40 AM Originally posted by Seeker95
I disagree. He cannot scribe an arcane cure light wounds because neither he nor the cleric can prepare an arcane CLW.

He's not scribing an arcane cure light wounds. He's scribing an arcane scroll of cure light wounds.

The DMG states that the nature of the scroll (arcane or divine) is dictated by the class of the creator. Not, note, by the spell being scribed.

The rules for crafting magic items state that spell prerequisites don't have to be supplied by the creator. They can be supplied by another caster or even an item.

So when a wizard scribes a scroll, it is an arcane scroll... even if the spell prerequisite is supplied by a divine caster.

A multiclassed wizard/cleric with Scribe Scroll could choose to scribe a scroll as arcane or divine, regardless of where the spell prerequisite comes from. If he chooses to scribe as a wizard, the scroll is arcane. He can supply the spell prerequisite by preparing cure light wounds as a cleric... just as he could have the spell supplied by another cleric.

Thus, he can scribe an arcane scroll of CLW for the bard all by himself.

-Hyp.
sparkster4242
08-14-04, 09:07 AM hyp is right, a spell is either arcane or divine, depending on its caster, but a scroll is not a spell - its a magic item, which is either arcane or divine depending on its creator.
yes, this particular case is silly.

lets face it, some magic items just arent as useful as others. that in no way negates the possibility of creating them, nor does it alter the restrictions on their use.

ill have to add this one to my list of entertaining rules oddities, right next to the bag of rats and the lightspeed bucket :p

heh, now i have a vision of a cleric scribing a scroll of a paladin-only spell with a caster-level so high it would tend to blow up when used...

here's some more gasoline for the fire:
would arcane/divine count as a 'spellcasting parameter' which the Geomancer can mix-and-match to gain the 'maximum possible advantage'?
in particular, can a wiz/clr/geo recite an arcane scroll of cure light wounds without using UMD?
netwilly
08-14-04, 02:51 PM Originally posted by sparkster4242
I'll have to add this one to my list of entertaining rules oddities
That's pretty much why I started this post.
Originally posted by sparkster4242
Here's some more gasoline for the fire:
Now I'm sorry I started the post.
Truly you have a dizzing intellect.
Seeker95
08-14-04, 04:03 PM A wizard cannot make a scroll from a spell he does not know. Although the other magic item creation feats state that you can craft an item whose prerequisites you meet, the scribe scroll feat explicitly says "you can create a scroll of any spell that you know."

If were going to pull rules lawyer crap*, lets at least stay consistent. Other magic item creation feats allow you to use another caster to help you create it. The wording of scribe scroll says nothing about meeting prerequisites. It says you have to know the spell.

* Can you tell I find rules lawyers to be rather irritating (to put it mildly)?
sparkster4242
08-17-04, 09:02 AM netwilly:
wait till i get going!
where was i...

seeker:
ah, now that is a telling point.
there are two phrases used in the core item creation feats in 3.5:
a) that you know (Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand)
b) whose prerequisites you meet (everything else)

heh, if 'knowing the spell' is a prerequisite for scribing a scroll, then another caster (or even another magic item) can help you meet it, as per the general rule;
on the other hand, if another caster _cant_ help you there, then its not a prerequisite - even tho it certainly seems to behave like one.

hmm, perhaps that particular phrase was used to introduce specific exceptions to the 'creators may collaborate' rule - tho it seems silly to me to do that for scrolls and wands, but not staffs... oh well.

i think ill stick with the collaborative method ... i cant wait to see my players' faces when they find a really nifty scroll that noone can use :p
Seeker95
08-17-04, 03:26 PM Originally posted by sparkster4242
when they find a really nifty scroll that noone can use :p This statement is the reason I argue the way I do. How can the magic be created by anyone who cannot use it? It is like asking the gods to create a rock they cannot move. Philosophically, it makes for a fun (and time wasting) endeavor, but it just doesn't "fit". If nobody can use it, how can anyone create it?
White_djinn
08-17-04, 05:59 PM Heh. I won't argue about which interpretation is right, but a Loremaster would certainly disagree about nobody being able to use it... though it would be a nice, if incidental, way to ensure that rival spellcasters won't use your own scrolls...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
netwilly 08-12-04, 09:09 AM	The DMG has vague language explaining two spellcasters can cooperate to craft a magic item. Can a wizard scribe a scroll of cure light woulnds, w/ his cleric budy casting the spell?
Beamup 08-12-04, 09:12 AM	Yes. As long as somebody has the feat and somebody has the spell, you can do it.
Harmor 08-12-04, 11:42 AM	He is correct. However note that the person with the feat for the item is the one who pays the XP cost. You could even cast the spell from a scroll or item btw.
Seeker95 08-12-04, 12:14 PM	Scribe it? Yes. Use it? No.
Hypersmurf 08-12-04, 07:45 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Scribe it? Yes. Use it? No. Note that the Cleric couldn't use it either, but the Bard could. Scrolls are either arcane or divine, depending on the creator. The creator is the wizard, therefore the scroll is arcane. (The cleric is not the creator, merely someone supplying a prerequisite.) The wizard cannot use an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds; CLW is not on his class list. The cleric cannot use an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds; he can only use divine scrolls. The bard can use an arcane scroll of Cure Light Wounds, though - he's an arcane caster with CLW on his list. -Hyp.
netwilly 08-12-04, 09:49 PM	But it's a divine spell. It was cast by a cleric. Tangent Discussion: Assuming there was no dispute and it is a divine scroll, could a ranger cast it even though for him it would normally be a second level ranger spell. Would he need a scroll of Ranger, 2nd Level CLW?
Hypersmurf 08-12-04, 09:58 PM	Originally posted by netwilly But it's a divine spell. It was cast by a cleric. Doesn't matter. "The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)" The wizard is creating the scroll. The cleric can't - he doesn't have the feat. He just supplies the spell. The type of scroll the wizard creates is determined by his class - arcane. Therefore, he's making an arcane scroll of the spell supplied by the cleric. The fact that the cleric casts it as a divine spell is irrelevant, based on the rules for scrolls. Tangent Discussion: Assuming there was no dispute and it is a divine scroll If we had a Cleric with the Scribe Scroll feat, for example. Cool. could a ranger cast it even though for him it would normally be a second level ranger spell. Would he need a scroll of Ranger, 2nd Level CLW? No, he can cast from it just fine. It's a divine scroll of a spell on his list. The level of the spell is irrelevant. He could have a problem if his caster level is lower than the scroll's caster level, of course. (But nobody ever makes a scroll of CLW with a caster level higher than 1... for the price of one 1d8+2 scroll, you could scribe two 1d8+1 scrolls!) -Hyp.
Dlgood 08-12-04, 10:42 PM	Of course, a Rouge with Use Magic Device could use such a scroll. As could a Mystic Theurge. Or a multi-classed caster.
Hypersmurf 08-12-04, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by Dlgood Of course, a Rouge with Use Magic Device could use such a scroll. Or anyone else with Use Magic Device, for that matter. As could a Mystic Theurge. Or a multi-classed caster. That's not so clear. For example, a Cleric 17/Wizard 1 can use a divine scroll of Miracle (CL 17) with no problem. It's on his cleric spell list, and his Cleric caster level is 17. But what if it's an arcane scroll of Meteor Swarm (CL 17)? It's on his wizard spell list... but his wizard caster level is only 1. Can he use his cleric caster level? I'd say no - he has to make a caster level check using his wizard caster level. Likewise, if a Theurge picks up an arcane scroll of CLW, I'd require him to have CLW on the spell list of an arcane class to be able to use it. -Hyp.
Loren Pechtel 08-14-04, 12:42 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf Likewise, if a Theurge picks up an arcane scroll of CLW, I'd require him to have CLW on the spell list of an arcane class to be able to use it. -Hyp. I can't see a justification for this. Said Theurge can make the scroll on his own if he wants to (assuming such a thing exists at all), he certainly should be able to use it.
Seeker95 08-14-04, 12:47 AM	Originally posted by Loren Pechtel I can't see a justification for this. Said Theurge can make the scroll on his own if he wants to (assuming such a thing exists at all), he certainly should be able to use it. First, I would say he couldn't make it. To make a scroll, you must have the spell prepared. Neither a cleric nor a wizard can prepare an arcane cure light wounds. But if you are going to allow it, he sure as hell can't cast it. Neither clerics nor wizards can cast an arcane cure light wounds spell, regardless of what house rules you've twisted to let them make it.
Heron_Marked_Blade 08-14-04, 12:58 AM	Originally posted by Loren Pechtel I can't see a justification for this. Said Theurge can make the scroll on his own if he wants to (assuming such a thing exists at all), he certainly should be able to use it. Point is that it's an arcane scroll of cure light wounds, and no one except for a bard has CLW as an arcane spell. The Theurge could use the scroll if it was a divine scroll of cure light wounds, because he has CLW on his divine spell list. That's why the Theurge can't use an arcane scroll of cure light wounds. Only a bard can.
Hypersmurf 08-14-04, 03:50 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 First, I would say he couldn't make it. Oh, he can make it just fine. He has wizard levels, and so he can scribe arcane scrolls. He gets the spell supplied by a cleric... who just happens to be himself. But I don't think he can use it once he's finished. -Hyp.
Shatteredtower 08-14-04, 04:54 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf Oh, he can make it just fine. He has wizard levels, and so he can scribe arcane scrolls. He gets the spell supplied by a cleric... who just happens to be himself. But I don't think he can use it once he's finished. -Hyp. If he's also the cleric, of course he can. After all, it's not like he's a wizard with the Scribe Scroll feat and a cleric without it. It would amount to the same thing as ruling that a fighter/rogue couldn't benefit from the Cleave feat while performing a sneak attack because it was acquired as a fighter bonus feat. Going by the most literal interpretation of a wizard scribing a scroll for a cleric, the results can be used by neither class. Such a result is nonsensical, and any further discussion of the matter is academic, serving no practical game purpose. The only sensible ruling is that either the wizard can't assist a cleric (or druid or adept) in creating the scroll or the supplier of the spell is treated as the spell's creator for purposes of determining the creator's class. Otherwise you wind up with the possibility of arcane scrolls of raise dead, which can't be used by any spellcasters at all, unless they have the Use Magic Device skill -- which means that their best hope of using the scroll is again to be a bard (or a rogue, even without caster levels). How am I supposed to treat a position like that seriously, regardless of how well one can argue for it based on the rules as written?
Hypersmurf 08-14-04, 05:10 AM	Originally posted by Shatteredtower If he's also the cleric, of course he can. After all, it's not like he's a wizard with the Scribe Scroll feat and a cleric without it. That's a different argument. He can certainly choose to scribe it as a divine scroll, since he's a cleric. But if he wants to, since he's a wizard, he can scribe it as an arcane scroll... in which case he can't use it, but a bard can. Going by the most literal interpretation of a wizard scribing a scroll for a cleric, the results can be used by neither class. That's right. Otherwise you wind up with the possibility of arcane scrolls of raise dead, which can't be used by any spellcasters at all, unless they have the Use Magic Device skill. That's right. -Hyp.
Seeker95 08-14-04, 08:22 AM	[double post]
Seeker95 08-14-04, 08:24 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf But if he wants to, since he's a wizard, he can scribe it as an arcane scroll...I disagree. He cannot scribe an arcane cure light wounds because neither he nor the cleric can prepare an arcane CLW. The wizard cannot change the spell he is scribing. The cleric cannot change the spell he is providing.
Hypersmurf 08-14-04, 08:40 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 I disagree. He cannot scribe an arcane cure light wounds because neither he nor the cleric can prepare an arcane CLW. He's not scribing an arcane cure light wounds. He's scribing an arcane scroll of cure light wounds. The DMG states that the nature of the scroll (arcane or divine) is dictated by the class of the creator. Not, note, by the spell being scribed. The rules for crafting magic items state that spell prerequisites don't have to be supplied by the creator. They can be supplied by another caster or even an item. So when a wizard scribes a scroll, it is an arcane scroll... even if the spell prerequisite is supplied by a divine caster. A multiclassed wizard/cleric with Scribe Scroll could choose to scribe a scroll as arcane or divine, regardless of where the spell prerequisite comes from. If he chooses to scribe as a wizard, the scroll is arcane. He can supply the spell prerequisite by preparing cure light wounds as a cleric... just as he could have the spell supplied by another cleric. Thus, he can scribe an arcane scroll of CLW for the bard all by himself. -Hyp.
sparkster4242 08-14-04, 09:07 AM	hyp is right, a spell is either arcane or divine, depending on its caster, but a scroll is not a spell - its a magic item, which is either arcane or divine depending on its creator. yes, this particular case is silly. lets face it, some magic items just arent as useful as others. that in no way negates the possibility of creating them, nor does it alter the restrictions on their use. ill have to add this one to my list of entertaining rules oddities, right next to the bag of rats and the lightspeed bucket :p heh, now i have a vision of a cleric scribing a scroll of a paladin-only spell with a caster-level so high it would tend to blow up when used... here's some more gasoline for the fire: would arcane/divine count as a 'spellcasting parameter' which the Geomancer can mix-and-match to gain the 'maximum possible advantage'? in particular, can a wiz/clr/geo recite an arcane scroll of cure light wounds without using UMD?
netwilly 08-14-04, 02:51 PM	Originally posted by sparkster4242 I'll have to add this one to my list of entertaining rules oddities That's pretty much why I started this post. Originally posted by sparkster4242 Here's some more gasoline for the fire: Now I'm sorry I started the post. Truly you have a dizzing intellect.
Seeker95 08-14-04, 04:03 PM	A wizard cannot make a scroll from a spell he does not know. Although the other magic item creation feats state that you can craft an item whose prerequisites you meet, the scribe scroll feat explicitly says "you can create a scroll of any spell that you know." If were going to pull rules lawyer crap, lets at least stay consistent. Other magic item creation feats allow you to use another caster to help you create it. The wording of scribe scroll says nothing about meeting prerequisites. It says you have to know the spell. Can you tell I find rules lawyers to be rather irritating (to put it mildly)?
sparkster4242 08-17-04, 09:02 AM	netwilly: wait till i get going! where was i... seeker: ah, now that is a telling point. there are two phrases used in the core item creation feats in 3.5: a) that you know (Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand) b) whose prerequisites you meet (everything else) heh, if 'knowing the spell' is a prerequisite for scribing a scroll, then another caster (or even another magic item) can help you meet it, as per the general rule; on the other hand, if another caster _cant_ help you there, then its not a prerequisite - even tho it certainly seems to behave like one. hmm, perhaps that particular phrase was used to introduce specific exceptions to the 'creators may collaborate' rule - tho it seems silly to me to do that for scrolls and wands, but not staffs... oh well. i think ill stick with the collaborative method ... i cant wait to see my players' faces when they find a really nifty scroll that noone can use :p
Seeker95 08-17-04, 03:26 PM	Originally posted by sparkster4242 when they find a really nifty scroll that noone can use :p This statement is the reason I argue the way I do. How can the magic be created by anyone who cannot use it? It is like asking the gods to create a rock they cannot move. Philosophically, it makes for a fun (and time wasting) endeavor, but it just doesn't "fit". If nobody can use it, how can anyone create it?
White_djinn 08-17-04, 05:59 PM	Heh. I won't argue about which interpretation is right, but a Loremaster would certainly disagree about nobody being able to use it... though it would be a nice, if incidental, way to ensure that rival spellcasters won't use your own scrolls...