Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArcWF 08-11-05, 12:00 PM	The subject asks it all. Assuming a spell on a Divine- or Artificer-made scroll is on the wizard's class spell list, can the wizard copy it into his spellbook?
tarkin 08-11-05, 12:11 PM	No. From SRD, magic items, Scrolls section The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) It says only use, not only "cast from". So scrolls of the wrong type are not usable for this purpsose or the regular one.
jameswilliamogle 08-11-05, 12:45 PM	i think a bard could make a cure light wounds scroll w/ the appropriate feat, tho, and it would be arcane (since there's arcane c.l.w. scrolls on the scroll list in the dmg, i think this is the source). since the bard is an arcane caster, then the definition from the SRD given above doesn't exclude a wizard learning CLW from a bard-source, for example, although i think this is just plain wrong. another relavent section of the srd: Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level)... If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below).
Illithid Tentacles 08-11-05, 03:58 PM	i think a bard could make a cure light wounds scroll w/ the appropriate feat, tho, and it would be arcane (since there's arcane c.l.w. scrolls on the scroll list in the dmg, i think this is the source). since the bard is an arcane caster, then the definition from the SRD given above doesn't exclude a wizard learning CLW from a bard-source, I believe it does. CLW is NOT on the wizard spell list. Therefore, they can never, EVER learn it as a wizard spell. If they multiclass to bard, druid, cleric, paladin, or ranger, THEN they can learn it and cast it from THAT class' spells per day. But in no circumstances can wizards (or sorcerers) lean any of the Cure Wounds spells as sor/wiz spells.
Coffee 08-11-05, 04:06 PM	That's what Limited Wish is for.
MJ the Prophet 08-11-05, 04:12 PM	As for Artificer scrolls, there's still some confusion on that. The official ruling is that Artificer scrolls are neither arcane nor divine, and thus cannot be used at all without a UMD check. While this seems a little silly to me, it does what it is supposed to do; it keeps the artificer from becoming an infinite library for the party wizard.
jameswilliamogle 08-11-05, 05:34 PM	I believe it does. CLW is NOT on the wizard spell list. Therefore, they can never, EVER learn it as a wizard spell. If they multiclass to bard, druid, cleric, paladin, or ranger, THEN they can learn it and cast it from THAT class' spells per day. But in no circumstances can wizards (or sorcerers) lean any of the Cure Wounds spells as sor/wiz spells.hey, i said it was a bad idea to allow it, there's no reason for you to go off shouting. that segment of the srd doesn't say that you can't learn spells outside of your class' spell list, it just says you can't learn divine spells. show me the section that says you can't learn spells outside your spell list, and i'll believe that what you say is RAW. i don't think you can: they don't have that section so that wizards can do spell research outside of their spell list, and although the designers (probably) didn't expect it, they didn't exclude the possibility of a wizard learning CLW from a bard. again, RAW may be a dumb way to play, but it has to be the common language on these threads.
MrkGrismer 08-11-05, 05:57 PM	These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level. and A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). and At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. Bard spells are not sorcerer/wizard spells.
tarkin 08-11-05, 05:58 PM	God, not another person that doesn't read the books. The RAW is quite clear, you can only cast spells on your spell list. It is the PHB, and the DMG but not as clearly in the SRD. Look, what do you think the spell list is FOR? Just a list of spells that they most commonly know? The DM may of course change anything. He may even declare that Wish is a 0 level spells for Sorcerors whose name begins with TARKI But, no, you can't learn a spell not in your spell list.
jameswilliamogle 08-11-05, 07:52 PM	The RAW is quite clear, you can only cast spells on your spell list.dude, if that was the case, then it would be pointless to research new spells since "they aren't on my spell list". i wouldn't allow a wizard to cast/learn CLW but i haven't seen much against it, except for ramblings from a few posters. it isn't so clear cut, and that was my point. give me some page numbers, columns, and line numbers if you're going to whine about me not reading the books. MrkGrismer: thanks for those points, in an organized and unbiased manner, but i'm still not seeing a direct statement excluding a wizard from learning arcane CLW from a bard-made scroll, except that the spells from leveling up must be drawn from the spell list. this segment: Originally Posted by PHB, pg 56 A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). actually suggests that if a wizard researched a new spell then they couldn't cast it, which we know is nuts. there is a precedence of learning cross-class abilities: the XPH states under research that they can duplicate existing powers or even cross-class powers. i'm not trying to suggest that this should apply, just noticing a precedence that further makes it less clear-cut.
tarkin 08-11-05, 07:58 PM	Dude, what are you thinking. When you RESEARCH A NEW SPELL, then you decide all the spell's characteristics. That means you get to pick things like Duration, range and what spell lists it is on. I.E. When I make a new spell called: MAGES SUPER POWERFULL BLOW OF DOOM I can declare that hey, it is on the Cleric's list and the Druid's list, as well as the Wizard/Sorceror list. -------------------- Note, I have had an ephiphany and and now also providing advice for different game levels. As always "Anything Goes" gamers can do this freely. I will also state that while a Strict and Loose gamer will DEFINITELY not allow this, it can reasonably be done for a high end power gamer, with a lot of House Rulings and taking the feat Extra Spell Known. Please note that this is a HUGE power increase, particularly as Bard spells are often two levels higher than wizard spells. The House Rules are needed to deal with this potential problem. For example, I would suggest that you rule that most casters can not take Otto's Irresitable Dance as a 6th level Bard spell because it is also an 8th level Wizard Spell.
jameswilliamogle 08-11-05, 08:27 PM	That means you get to pick things like Duration, range and what spell lists it is on.where does it say that? i've read and reread p198 in the DMG and just see that "any spell can be researched". how do you rp it being on multiple spell lists, when you only really know one? that's semantics, you got me, fine. it still doesn't exclude the possibility of researching CLW (a reasonable DM would let you waste money and then say "no", but we're discussing what's possible, not impossible, right?). i know about the extra spell feat; it needs errata'd. the whole thing with learning cross-class abilities needs to be addressed: psions could research body adjustment RAW to get it as a 2nd level power, as well, barring DM intervention... but that's the whole point: it's all up the DM, and isn't as clear cut as you make it.
tarkin 08-11-05, 08:48 PM	In game explanation: People like to think they "invent things". That is a fiction. God (or Gods) actually invent the things, people just discover them. For example, Glord, the "inventor" of the Repeating Crossbow, really just discovered that if you put peices of metal here in this shape, then boom, you have a crossbow that can be used upto 5 times. Similarly, when your wizard "researchs" he does not really invent the spell, he discovers how to get the effect. And in doing so, as a side effect he realizes that "hey, I can do this, and you know what, this seems like the kind of thing a Bard can also do." --------- Out of game explanation: You, the real life person, invents the spell, not the character. Then the DM approves it. As such when you are inventing things, you invent which other classes can do it, and the DM approves it. ======================== You can't really research any spell. You can only research spells your DM allows. In Strict games and Loose games your DM will say "NO, WIZARDS CAN'T RESEARCH CURE LIGHT WOUNDS. Go play a Mystic Theurge. :rolleyes: " In a Power game or an Anything Goes Game, your DM will likely say "Sure, but it costs you X money". He might force you to take a feat to do it also.
MrkGrismer 08-11-05, 10:28 PM	MrkGrismer: thanks for those points, in an organized and unbiased manner, but i'm still not seeing a direct statement excluding a wizard from learning arcane CLW from a bard-made scroll, except that the spells from leveling up must be drawn from the spell list. ?? If you are looking for something along the lines of, "a wizard cannot learn an arcane CLW from a bard-made scroll" then you will find it in the same place where it states "your character may not crap diamonds." Such an explicity statement is not required. this segment: Originally Posted by PHB, pg 56 A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). actually suggests that if a wizard researched a new spell then they couldn't cast it, which we know is nuts. I don't see how it suggests that in any way whatsover. It is already covered under the sorcerer. These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level. It is one of the difficulties with the core books that they do not repeat things as much as many of the other books. The assumption is that the designers mean for the above to apply to sorcerer/wizards. The text is certainly more applicable to wizards then to sorcerers, as wizards are more likely to do spell research and thus discover spells not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in the PHB. there is a precedence of learning cross-class abilities: the XPH states under research that they can duplicate existing powers or even cross-class powers. i'm not trying to suggest that this should apply, just noticing a precedence that further makes it less clear-cut. But they cannot learn a Bard's CLW spell either. Research is entirely up to the DMs descretion. If a Wizard wants to research CLW as a sorcerer/wizard spell he is free to do so, and the DM determines whether the spell is 'viable' or not (see DMG). The rules offer no concreate guidelines for this, other then the basic starting point of comparing the proposed spell to existing spells. There are no cure spells exisiting on the sorcerer/wizard list, so a DM would be justified in saying that no such spell is viable for a sorcerer/wizard. Of course, to take your point about the Bard and it being Arcane, a DM would be justified in saying that because of the Bard, all the cure spells that the Bard has on his list could be created as sorcerer/wizard spells that did the same thing. If the DM is to allow this, then balance would say that the sorcerer/wizard spell would have to be of a spell level equivalent to the power level of the Bard. Meaning CLW would be a 2nd Lvl sorcerer/wizard spell. CMW would be 3rd, etc. This still would not be the same spell as the one that a Bard scribed, obviously. But it would be a spell that is a sorcerer/wizard spell, since a sorcerer/wizard researched it. The sorcerer/wizard cannot cast the spell because it is not on the sorcerer/wizard list. Thus he cannot learn the spell, because he cannot learn what he cannot cast (other then researched spells).
jameswilliamogle 08-12-05, 12:23 AM	right, but as you just said, it is more dependent on the DM than the rules on this subject, as we've all said. i agree w/ you that the arcane cure spells shouldn't be on the same level as divine healing spells, and i further stipulate that arcane spellcasters (excluding bards) shouldn't be allowed to cast cure spells at all (w/o UMD and an external source, anyway), but i stipulate that it is perfectly within the DM's discretion, without breaking the RAW (and exluding the "DM is always right" rule), to allow wizards to learn the bard's CLW spell (via research mainly). your longer quote here means more than the one you posted before: "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level." is different from: "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcer/wizard spell list (page 192), " which definitely changes my stipulation about excluding research (i didn't have time to look your quote up before, b/c of work, and apologize for it). but, the example above is just an example. the sentance before it is the rule, and the rule doesn't exclude cross-class spells. the example doesn't suggest them, but it doesn't exclude them. and i might as well be crapping diamonds, but the constitution reserves all rights and priveledges not expressly written about in the document to the states, ie if it isn't written about, it's up to the states to decide. i suggest this is the same situation, where the states are DM's, and the rights are the rights of the players. really, that's the problem at this point: if the rules don't specifically disallow something, some take that to mean that they can do it, and others take it to mean you can't. i would rather allow most things in this category, especially if a player brings it to the table other than me. anyways, tomato tomato potato potato lets work the whole thing out.
Odin_666 08-12-05, 03:55 AM	"These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level." is different from: rofl rofl rofl, this comes up ones each month, isn't it? :D :D :D :D :D read the whole sentence in the brackets you quoted! also read the sentence before the brackets, it reffers to sor/wiz spells not in the phb... also if you want to know, what scrolls you can activate, check dmg pg.238, they have to be of the right type (arcane/divine) AND have to be on your spell list
jameswilliamogle 08-12-05, 10:09 AM	if it comes up each and every month it must not be that clear. my point is that it depends primarily on your DM.
MrkGrismer 08-12-05, 12:37 PM	Yes it depends largely on the DM. Some DMs might allow all sorts of things. Your point about the consitition is a little offbase, since the rules do not explicitly state that characters may learn spells not specifically prohibited by the rules, but rather do state what spells the characters may explicitly learn, that being the spells on the appropriate list, and those unusual spells the DM deems to be viable spells that the character has researched. No where do the rules explicitly state that a character may learn a spell on another classes list.
jameswilliamogle 08-12-05, 03:02 PM	Yes it depends largely on the DM. Some DMs might allow all sorts of things. Your point about the consitition is a little offbase, since the rules do not explicitly state that characters may learn spells not specifically prohibited by the rules, but rather do state what spells the characters may explicitly learn, that being the spells on the appropriate list, and those unusual spells the DM deems to be viable spells that the character has researched. No where do the rules explicitly state that a character may learn a spell on another classes list.okeedokee, but in the phb under "what can a character do" (im at work, dont have a page #, but it's like the 1st or 2nd page after the table of contents or something) it says you can do try to do just about anything you can imagine as long as it fits in the scenario the DM is describing; i don't think it's too far off base to reserve all rights not inherently prohibited by the rules to the group (includes the DM as well as players), but this is a different topic than this thread... anyways, that's enough arguing for me.
MrkGrismer 08-12-05, 05:46 PM	okeedokee, but in the phb under "what can a character do" (im at work, dont have a page #, but it's like the 1st or 2nd page after the table of contents or something) it says you can do try to do just about anything you can imagine as long as it fits in the scenario the DM is describing; i don't think it's too far off base to reserve all rights not inherently prohibited by the rules to the group (includes the DM as well as players), but this is a different topic than this thread... anyways, that's enough arguing for me. Yes, you can try flapping your arms in order to fly, but unless you have something, like a magic item, that the rules says allows you to fly by flapping your arms it just isn't going to happen. There is a difference between your character trying to do just about anything the player can imagine and the mechanics behind resolving such attempts in the game. A wizard can try to learn a Bard spell, but as far as the rules go he is going to fail.
Odin_666 08-13-05, 07:00 PM	if it comes up each and every month it must not be that clear. my point is that it depends primarily on your DM. it is only not clear, if people only read the half-sentence...
Antioch 08-13-05, 07:06 PM	The subject asks it all. Assuming a spell on a Divine- or Artificer-made scroll is on the wizard's class spell list, can the wizard copy it into his spellbook? No. There is nothing further to add that other posters have not already mentioned.
jameswilliamogle 08-13-05, 07:14 PM	"For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level." this is only an example. examples don't include all possibilities.