Can a Wizard unmetamagic a prepared spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a Wizard unmetamagic a prepared spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
baersark
04-07-07, 10:51 PM Can a Wizard unmetamagic a prepared spell? For example If a wizard has a fireball spell modified with silent spell, could he opt to cast said spell with the verbal componets thus negating that prepared feat. If so could it be done with other feats? i.e. Lord of the Uttercold feat.(complete arcane)
runestar
04-07-07, 10:56 PM For example If a wizard has a fireball spell modified with silent spell, could he opt to cast said spell with the verbal componets thus negating that prepared feat.
Why not just cast it as a silent spell, and simply mutter some gibberish if you feel so inclined to simulate the verbal components?
Can a Wizard unmetamagic a prepared spell?
I am not sure. I would be inclined to say no, but I don't see anything wrong about allowing it. However, considering that one would typically exercise said option only when it would be most advantageous to him...:P
Seeker95
04-08-07, 08:56 AM I am inclined to say no as well. Think of preparation like baking a cake:
You mix all the ingredients, bake them, and individually wrap them. At casting time, you pop them in the microwave.

Metamagic is one of the ingredients.
You can't take it out after you've baked it.
Millennium
04-08-07, 08:59 AM I am inclined to say no as well. Think of preparation like baking a cake:
You mix all the ingredients, bake them, and individually wrap them. At casting time, you pop them in the microwave.

Metamagic is one of the ingredients.
You can't take it out after you've baked it.
Another vote for no here. But again, just because you've removed the verbal components doesn't mean you can't still say something. You could even still say the real verbal components, I guess; the spell won't draw any power from them, but they'll be present.
SunTzuWarmaster
04-08-07, 11:43 AM I look at it this way: if I could un-metamagic a spell, what would I gain?

I would prepare all of my fireballs as [cold] fireballs using energy substitution, and cast them as one or the other depending on the weakness of the monsters.

I would disallow this use in my games, so I say you cannot undo metamagic at the time of casting.
Magrus
04-08-07, 11:47 AM Hmm. I would say no. Not without some sort of ability. Personally, I would probably say if a player wanted to get an ability to be able to do that, they would need to enter into the Archmage PrC, and take an ability through the class features that would let them do it. It would require them to be a high level caster, and it's feasible I think for an archmage to be able to shift his spells if he cut down on some of his spell power AND spent a class ability on it. Perhaps an 8th or 9th level lost would work. I would definitely still say that the spell modified would still take up the same spell level and all, as it was prepared in the slot. Like buying a pizza, and pulling the toppings off, you still paid for the stuff you're tossing in the garbage.
Toast_recon
04-08-07, 06:07 PM wow, analogies all around today.:rolleyes:
It is like..:lightbulb ...when you buy groceries.....you go to the checkout and.....buy stuff....:thinks: ..I got nothing.:surrender

I would say no. If you prepare a spell, you are stuck with it.Same with metamagic feats.Sorry:noway:
LaserBear
04-09-07, 02:40 AM I am going to agree with the other responses and say I wouldn't allow it. If you had wanted to be able to reactionarily apply metamagic based upon the foe, I would suggest going with the Sudden Metamagic feats from Complete Arcane, so that you can analyze your foe before you decide to use metamagic. If a metamagic feat doesn't have a Sudden variant, there is probably a good reason Wizards chose not to write-up such a variant. However, you can always ask your GM if he's willing to allow the creation of a Sudden variant of a metamagic feat that you have/want.
groveborn
04-09-07, 03:33 AM I'm going to put my 2 cents in, without the analogies. If you cast a fireball, you can choose to make it lower than your max level, provided it's at least a 5th level casting, so you can change the dice down to 5d6. You can't change those dice to 5d4. When you apply a metamagic feat, you physically change the spell, so that it's no longer the same spell at all, just very similar.

I'm sure that the Fireball example was just that, an example, and that you had something else in mind, but that's just all there is.
runestar
04-09-07, 04:36 AM A better question might be:
Does anyone foresee any potential abuses with this? Energy sub is one possible example. Any others?:)
CantripN
04-09-07, 07:05 AM A better question might be:
Does anyone foresee any potential abuses with this? Energy sub is one possible example. Any others?:)

Non-lethal Sub, Sculpt Spell, Transdimentional Spell and possibly others are abuses.

The basic cases I'd allow this are with Delay Spell or Repeat Spell, so as not to delay or repeat.
There's certainly no harm in removing Extend, Empower, Maximize or the like, though I'm yet to see a person wishing to remove those....
Toast_recon
04-09-07, 09:44 AM if he wants people to realize what he is casting and run, silent and still spell would be at an advantage. But as said before he could still say the words.
I think I have a good analogy. You buy a gun that is silenced, which you pay extra for. If you want to scare people off. You could light fire crackers while shooting, the sound isn't coming from the gun, but you can still make it.
Ps: why buy the gun if you have the firecrackers, if you catch my drift.;)
SunTzuWarmaster
04-09-07, 09:59 AM With energy substitution, you would get 2 types of damage at no cost (other than the feat).

Sometimes, even when you sculpt a spell it is impossible not to hit party members, and you want that 10' burst back (instead of a 20' ball)

Energy Admixture, Fell Drain (not good when you encounter undead).

I hate to say this (really, this is the first time I have ever said it), but it would make a half-decent feat. Something like:
"you are flexible in your metamagic, you may strip the metamagic from a spell in order for it to be cast as the original spell and gain back a spell of the level the metamagic has cost. For instance, you could turn an empowered fireball (5th level) into a fireball (3rd level) and an unused 2nd level slot (which you could then prepare a spell into as normal). You may not gain 0th level spells in this manner. Any ability that reduces metamagic cost that you have applied to this spell is wasted."

Not a bad feat (not GOOD, but not wasted), there are times when I would swap an empowered fireball for a normal fireball and a spiderclimb/invisibility/glitterdust.
tarkin
04-09-07, 02:52 PM I know of a blatanat abuse.

Sanctum spell.

A spell memorized with this +0 metamagic feat is +1 spell level (raising DC's, etc. but not the slot you need), but ONLY if cast within your established Sanctum.

If cast outside the Sanctum, you get a -1 penalty to spell level instead.

The existence of this metamagic feat makes for a clear abuse of allowing people to remove the feats.

I could see House Ruling that you can only remove a metamagic feat if you paid at least +1 spell level for the metamagics.
green_yawgmoth
04-09-07, 04:44 PM I am inclined to say no as well. Think of preparation like baking a cake:
You mix all the ingredients, bake them, and individually wrap them. At casting time, you pop them in the microwave.

Metamagic is one of the ingredients.
You can't take it out after you've baked it.I was going to come in here and say "can you take the eggs out of a cake after you bake it?" Get out of my head!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
baersark 04-07-07, 10:51 PM	Can a Wizard unmetamagic a prepared spell? For example If a wizard has a fireball spell modified with silent spell, could he opt to cast said spell with the verbal componets thus negating that prepared feat. If so could it be done with other feats? i.e. Lord of the Uttercold feat.(complete arcane)
runestar 04-07-07, 10:56 PM	For example If a wizard has a fireball spell modified with silent spell, could he opt to cast said spell with the verbal componets thus negating that prepared feat. Why not just cast it as a silent spell, and simply mutter some gibberish if you feel so inclined to simulate the verbal components? Can a Wizard unmetamagic a prepared spell? I am not sure. I would be inclined to say no, but I don't see anything wrong about allowing it. However, considering that one would typically exercise said option only when it would be most advantageous to him...:P
Seeker95 04-08-07, 08:56 AM	I am inclined to say no as well. Think of preparation like baking a cake: You mix all the ingredients, bake them, and individually wrap them. At casting time, you pop them in the microwave. Metamagic is one of the ingredients. You can't take it out after you've baked it.
Millennium 04-08-07, 08:59 AM	I am inclined to say no as well. Think of preparation like baking a cake: You mix all the ingredients, bake them, and individually wrap them. At casting time, you pop them in the microwave. Metamagic is one of the ingredients. You can't take it out after you've baked it. Another vote for no here. But again, just because you've removed the verbal components doesn't mean you can't still say something. You could even still say the real verbal components, I guess; the spell won't draw any power from them, but they'll be present.
SunTzuWarmaster 04-08-07, 11:43 AM	I look at it this way: if I could un-metamagic a spell, what would I gain? I would prepare all of my fireballs as [cold] fireballs using energy substitution, and cast them as one or the other depending on the weakness of the monsters. I would disallow this use in my games, so I say you cannot undo metamagic at the time of casting.
Magrus 04-08-07, 11:47 AM	Hmm. I would say no. Not without some sort of ability. Personally, I would probably say if a player wanted to get an ability to be able to do that, they would need to enter into the Archmage PrC, and take an ability through the class features that would let them do it. It would require them to be a high level caster, and it's feasible I think for an archmage to be able to shift his spells if he cut down on some of his spell power AND spent a class ability on it. Perhaps an 8th or 9th level lost would work. I would definitely still say that the spell modified would still take up the same spell level and all, as it was prepared in the slot. Like buying a pizza, and pulling the toppings off, you still paid for the stuff you're tossing in the garbage.
Toast_recon 04-08-07, 06:07 PM	wow, analogies all around today.:rolleyes: It is like..:lightbulb ...when you buy groceries.....you go to the checkout and.....buy stuff....:thinks: ..I got nothing.:surrender I would say no. If you prepare a spell, you are stuck with it.Same with metamagic feats.Sorry:noway:
LaserBear 04-09-07, 02:40 AM	I am going to agree with the other responses and say I wouldn't allow it. If you had wanted to be able to reactionarily apply metamagic based upon the foe, I would suggest going with the Sudden Metamagic feats from Complete Arcane, so that you can analyze your foe before you decide to use metamagic. If a metamagic feat doesn't have a Sudden variant, there is probably a good reason Wizards chose not to write-up such a variant. However, you can always ask your GM if he's willing to allow the creation of a Sudden variant of a metamagic feat that you have/want.
groveborn 04-09-07, 03:33 AM	I'm going to put my 2 cents in, without the analogies. If you cast a fireball, you can choose to make it lower than your max level, provided it's at least a 5th level casting, so you can change the dice down to 5d6. You can't change those dice to 5d4. When you apply a metamagic feat, you physically change the spell, so that it's no longer the same spell at all, just very similar. I'm sure that the Fireball example was just that, an example, and that you had something else in mind, but that's just all there is.
runestar 04-09-07, 04:36 AM	A better question might be: Does anyone foresee any potential abuses with this? Energy sub is one possible example. Any others?:)
CantripN 04-09-07, 07:05 AM	A better question might be: Does anyone foresee any potential abuses with this? Energy sub is one possible example. Any others?:) Non-lethal Sub, Sculpt Spell, Transdimentional Spell and possibly others are abuses. The basic cases I'd allow this are with Delay Spell or Repeat Spell, so as not to delay or repeat. There's certainly no harm in removing Extend, Empower, Maximize or the like, though I'm yet to see a person wishing to remove those....
Toast_recon 04-09-07, 09:44 AM	if he wants people to realize what he is casting and run, silent and still spell would be at an advantage. But as said before he could still say the words. I think I have a good analogy. You buy a gun that is silenced, which you pay extra for. If you want to scare people off. You could light fire crackers while shooting, the sound isn't coming from the gun, but you can still make it. Ps: why buy the gun if you have the firecrackers, if you catch my drift.;)
SunTzuWarmaster 04-09-07, 09:59 AM	With energy substitution, you would get 2 types of damage at no cost (other than the feat). Sometimes, even when you sculpt a spell it is impossible not to hit party members, and you want that 10' burst back (instead of a 20' ball) Energy Admixture, Fell Drain (not good when you encounter undead). I hate to say this (really, this is the first time I have ever said it), but it would make a half-decent feat. Something like: "you are flexible in your metamagic, you may strip the metamagic from a spell in order for it to be cast as the original spell and gain back a spell of the level the metamagic has cost. For instance, you could turn an empowered fireball (5th level) into a fireball (3rd level) and an unused 2nd level slot (which you could then prepare a spell into as normal). You may not gain 0th level spells in this manner. Any ability that reduces metamagic cost that you have applied to this spell is wasted." Not a bad feat (not GOOD, but not wasted), there are times when I would swap an empowered fireball for a normal fireball and a spiderclimb/invisibility/glitterdust.
tarkin 04-09-07, 02:52 PM	I know of a blatanat abuse. Sanctum spell. A spell memorized with this +0 metamagic feat is +1 spell level (raising DC's, etc. but not the slot you need), but ONLY if cast within your established Sanctum. If cast outside the Sanctum, you get a -1 penalty to spell level instead. The existence of this metamagic feat makes for a clear abuse of allowing people to remove the feats. I could see House Ruling that you can only remove a metamagic feat if you paid at least +1 spell level for the metamagics.
green_yawgmoth 04-09-07, 04:44 PM	I am inclined to say no as well. Think of preparation like baking a cake: You mix all the ingredients, bake them, and individually wrap them. At casting time, you pop them in the microwave. Metamagic is one of the ingredients. You can't take it out after you've baked it.I was going to come in here and say "can you take the eggs out of a cake after you bake it?" Get out of my head! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif