Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Donp 01-22-07, 10:29 AM	In my campaign there is a Wizard, he is 2nd level, so he knows Zero level spells and first level spells. He wants to buy or craft scrolls with second and third level spells, and use them. Can he do that? Even though he doesn't know 2nd or 3d level spells until levels 3 and 5 respectively. Also, if he can do this, what's to stop him from buying a scroll of disintegrate or Wish? Also does this mean that a 1st level Wizard Apprentice can kill his 10th level master by using one of the master's Disintegrate scrolls?? Thanks.
Koenig 01-22-07, 10:54 AM	He wants to buy or craft scrolls with second and third level spells, and use them. Can he do that? Even though he doesn't know 2nd or 3d level spells until levels 3 and 5 respectively. Buy: Yes Craft: No Use: He has to make a caster level check: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm: If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. Also, if he can do this, what's to stop him from buying a scroll of disintegrate or Wish? Remove the Endless Bag of Gold.
Seeker95 01-22-07, 11:02 AM	He can buy them (if he has the money). He can use them (if he passes the caster level check). He cannot craft them since he must first prepare the spell to scribe a scroll.
Donp 01-22-07, 11:52 AM	Thanks :)
morme 01-22-07, 12:53 PM	He cannot craft them since he must first prepare the spell to scribe a scroll. Mm i think that he can even craft it eventually. Say, this 1st level wizard found a wand of fireball (lucky!) and he want to create a scroll of fireball from it. The sentence in DMGpg282 '(although access [to prerequisites for item creation] through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)' help him, but another sentence in DMGpg287 '[to create scrolls] The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)' help not. If he can, perhaps he will store this strange-made scroll and scribe it on his spellbook when will reach 5th level... DM's opinion always win. Mine is: let this wizard try .. the scroll will be written with an intrinsic % of failure when used. Ciao!
Seeker95 01-22-07, 01:48 PM	Mm i think that he can even craft it eventually.Eventually, yes. Because eventually he can prepare it. :tiphat:
morme 01-22-07, 03:17 PM	Eventually, yes. Because eventually he can prepare it. :tiphat: :) i think i've done some errors ... but can't see where ... need to read dictionary before post ... or better, attend some english lessons. Ok, next time ... next time i will :)
Vegepygmy 01-22-07, 04:53 PM	In my campaign there is a Wizard, he is 2nd level, so he knows Zero level spells and first level spells. He wants to buy or craft scrolls with second and third level spells, and use them. Can he do that? Even though he doesn't know 2nd or 3d level spells until levels 3 and 5 respectively.Yes, he can use them...as long as he can succeed on the caster level check (see DMG, page 238). As for crafting them: he can do so as long as the spell is provided by someone else with a high enough caster level and that person is designated as the scroll's creator. Also, if he can do this, what's to stop him from buying a scroll of disintegrate or Wish? Also does this mean that a 1st level Wizard Apprentice can kill his 10th level master by using one of the master's Disintegrate scrolls??If he can make the caster level check, sure.
Nom 01-22-07, 05:01 PM	Also, if he can do this, what's to stop him from buying a scroll of disintegrate or Wish?Have you actually checked the price on one of those things? disintegrage has a spell level of 6 and thus minimum caster level of 11. That means the "apprentice" needs to roll 11 or better (DC 12, +1 for the apprentice's caster level) to even activate it. Asumming he does so, the spell's DC is only 19 (spells from items use the minimum DC). Also does this mean that a 1st level Wizard Apprentice can kill his 10th level master by using one of the master's Disintegrate scrolls??Possibly. If he's really set on such a course, there are other far more practical ways of doing so.
Merestil Haye 01-22-07, 07:20 PM	Mm i think that he can even craft it eventually. Say, this 1st level wizard found a wand of fireball (lucky!) and he want to create a scroll of fireball from it. The sentence in DMGpg282 '(although access [to prerequisites for item creation] through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)' help him, but another sentence in DMGpg287 '[to create scrolls] The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)' help not. If he can, perhaps he will store this strange-made scroll and scribe it on his spellbook when will reach 5th level... DM's opinion always win. Mine is: let this wizard try .. the scroll will be written with an intrinsic % of failure when used. Ciao!You are correct - a first level wizard can indeed do that. Assuming that the wizard has got hold of such a wand (a wand with 1 charge would be worth 225gp in treasure) he would also need to find 187½ gp and pay 15xp, for the privilege of using an item he can automatically activate to create one he has an 80% chance of activating. He could indeed store the scroll for later scribing into his spellbook, but while he does so that's an enormous amount of his gear tied up in something he won't want to use - making his survival at low levels even more parlous.
Vegepygmy 01-22-07, 08:03 PM	He could indeed store the scroll for later scribing into his spellbook...Actually, he doesn't even have to wait. There's nothing in the rules that says you have to be high enough level to cast a spell to scribe it into your spellbook. Of course, that would just mean you've spent an even greater amount of money on something you can't actually use until 5th level. :P
Loki5654 01-22-07, 08:29 PM	Scribe Scroll [Item Creation] Prerequisite Caster level 1st. Benefit You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll. known spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_knownspell&alpha=K) A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement. Source: PHB A wizard must have a spell in their spellbook in order to create a scroll of said spell. They cannot use a wand/staff/wonderous item or even another scroll.
Merestil Haye 01-22-07, 10:12 PM	It is not required that you know the spell - merely that you "have access" to it. From the SRD :A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.Wands are spell trigger devices. You may use a charge from a wand in lieu of being able to prepare the spell. Also the FAQ has this.The rules for magic item creation permit a character creating an item to use scrolls, wands, or even another caster as the source of the spells to be placed in the item. The rules do not, however, state clearly whether the character crafting the item has to be of a level sufficient to cast a given spell. Is the caster level of the character with the item creation feat being used to create the item (the “creator”) a limit on the power of the item? For example, can a 3rd-level wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat create items containing any spell (assuming access to the spells by other means), or is he limited to 2nd-level spells? Unless stated specifically, items never have a minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The “CL” entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.) A 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create a harp of charming (even though he’s not high-enough level to cast suggestion, a prerequisite for creation), as long he had access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from an item or another character).Scribing a scroll of a spell you know is the default situation, but by no means the only way to make a scroll. The high cost of this (remember that the scroll-scriber must provide the magic item as well as pay all the regular costs for scribing the spell) should prevent most of the abuses that may be thought of.
Seeker95 01-22-07, 11:11 PM	It is not required that you know the spell - merely that you "have access" to it.I suspect the specific text explicit to scribing a scroll applies to scribing a scroll much more accurately and definitively than the general text in the general creation of more general items. I'm going with Loki's text quotes on this one.
Vegepygmy 01-23-07, 02:06 AM	Loki's wrong. The feat description does not include all of the rules governing magic item creation, or even just scroll creation. In fact, it explicitly refers the reader to the DMG for rules on scrolls. The DMG rules are explicit, definitive, and comprehensive. They do not call out any exception for scrolls to the general magic item creation rules.
Seeker95 01-23-07, 09:05 AM	Loki's wrong. The feat description does not include all of the rules governing magic item creation, or even just scroll creation.He's not wrong, so there. :P (VP, you use that word "wrong" waaaayyyyy too frequently.) As for the battle of references -- Merastil quoted a general reference and a FAQ. Loki quoted the SRD entry for scrolls. When it comes to which set of information is more accurate with regard to scrolls, I'm going with the SRD scroll-specific entry. That the DMG rules do not call out an exception for scrolls is further evidence that the Scribe Scroll entry has primacy. The DMG does not contradict the Scribe Scroll entry with any scroll-specific entry. With no DMG contradiction, the PHB entry remains valid and in force.
Merestil Haye 01-23-07, 10:23 AM	He's not wrong, so there. :P (VP, you use that word "wrong" waaaayyyyy too frequently.) As for the battle of references -- Merastil quoted a general reference and a FAQ. Loki quoted the SRD entry for scrolls. When it comes to which set of information is more accurate with regard to scrolls, I'm going with the SRD scroll-specific entry. That the DMG rules do not call out an exception for scrolls is further evidence that the Scribe Scroll entry has primacy. The DMG does not contradict the Scribe Scroll entry with any scroll-specific entry. With no DMG contradiction, the PHB entry remains valid and in force.Careful, Seeker. The entry with precedence varies with the topic being discussed. Official WotC policy is as follows.Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.So no, I don't agree that the Scribe Scroll feat description in the PHB is the definitive text for the manufacture of magic items. The DMG text has primacy. That's why I consider Loki (and you) in error in this case - you are relying on a secondary text.
Vegepygmy 01-23-07, 11:56 AM	(VP, you use that word "wrong" waaaayyyyy too frequently.)I know, but I just can't help myself. :embarrass
Loki5654 01-23-07, 01:13 PM	Admittedly, I was just going off of a cursory glance at the Scribe Scroll feat (which would be expected to be the primary source on scribing scrolls). Also, I was using the SRD (not the books), so that makes it slightly harder to figure out "primary sources" because they are all lumped together.
Seeker95 01-23-07, 01:22 PM	So no, I don't agree that the Scribe Scroll feat description in the PHB is the definitive text for the manufacture of magic items. The DMG text has primacy.Here is why I think your disagreement is without warrant. There is no DMG text about scribe scroll. Nothing in the DMG about scrolls contradicts the PHB entry. The DMG entry is about the generic practice of crafting magic items. Generic magic item creation rules are just that: generic. The specific text in the PHB merely limits the generic text in the DMG. The "primacy" rules explicitly identify that this follows when there is a contradiction. No contradiction = no primacy rules.
Merestil Haye 01-23-07, 02:06 PM	On review, I agree that there is no contradiction. However, you have still drawn the wrong conclusion. If you read the entries on making magic items, each section contains something analagous to the following The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.What this tells us is that the default method for creating any magic item is that the crafter prepare the spell(s) in the prerequisites. This is true not for one or two types of item, but for all. The DMG explicitly allows the substitution of uses of spell completion or spell trigger items, or a use of an SLA in place of preparing the spell. It does not say this for one specific type of item, so it applies to all types. Even scrolls.
Vegepygmy 01-23-07, 02:47 PM	What Merestil just said. :cool:
Seeker95 01-23-07, 05:20 PM	On this one, we are going to have to agree to disagree. :tiphat:
Merestil Haye 01-23-07, 06:41 PM	On this one, we are going to have to agree to disagree. :tiphat:Agreed. :tiphat:
WinDReiN 01-23-07, 07:44 PM	Say a wizard scribes a spell of higher lvl than he can use in his spellbook. Later on, he doesn't need scrolls, he has the spell in the book, all he needs is to pass the caster lvl check. So, a 1st lvl wizard who gets his hands on a fireball spell could walk around and blast things with a 5 on his dice...it's getting late and I can't think straight any more, am I missing something here?
Vegepygmy 01-23-07, 08:27 PM	Later on, he doesn't need scrolls, he has the spell in the book, all he needs is to pass the caster lvl check.What caster level check? To cast a spell from a spellbook? You can't do that in 3e, AFAIK.
Seeker95 01-23-07, 09:26 PM	Agreeing with Vegepygmy on the "can't cast from the spellbook".
pmurray@bigpond.com 01-23-07, 10:38 PM	Also does this mean that a 1st level Wizard Apprentice can kill his 10th level master by using one of the master's Disintegrate scrolls?? Yup. Serves him right for leaving hand-grenandes like scrolls of Disintegrate laying around.