Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gavagai 01-11-07, 08:59 AM	I am thinking of a power hungry lich who is actually being controlled by an intelligent magic item he carries. - On the one hand, Undead are immune to everything mind affecting - On the other hand, it appears to be about a battle of egos, and not so much a suggestion attempt. While some might say "Whats the difference?" - I'd like to know how Saurons ring of power could dominate Gandalf, but would be completely helpless when worn by a standard D&D ghoul ... Whats your ruling on intelligent magic items and undead?
Penchant_Conjurer 01-11-07, 09:20 AM	The short answer is no. The One Ring will not possess a ghoul or even a skeleton. Undead are timeless and changeless. Even intelligent undead like liches do not change or really learn to be different, nor can outside forces change the way they think. The lich craves magic and power and is willing to do whatever acts achieve that. The ghoul craves only the flesh of the living and even sauron can't alter that. If you want a game mechanic to go with that, imagine that the guiding force behind the undead is actually coexistant on the material and negative energy plane and since no magic item or spell can affect both (even Transdimensional Spell won't affect the NMP) it won't work.
User5127 01-11-07, 09:42 AM	So basically I can run around with as many powerful artifacts and magic items that I want and not care if they control my mind because I'm undead... even magic items that have contradictory natures.
Seeker95 01-11-07, 09:46 AM	- On the one hand, Undead are immune to everything mind affectingImmune means immune. There is no other hand.
gavagai 01-11-07, 11:05 AM	Immune means immune. There is no other hand. While I agree ruleswise, I find it unfortunate flavor wise. Does it say in the RAW that intelligent item control is a mind affecting effect? (Dont have my books with me)
tarkin 01-11-07, 11:41 AM	There is nothing in this section: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm#itemsAgainstCharact ers that says it is a Mind affecting power. While yes, you are WORDING it as a mind affecting ability, it does not. In fact it specifically states Items with personalities are never totally controlled or silenced by the characters who possess them, even though they may never successfully control their possessors. They may be powerless to force their demands but remain undaunted and continue to air their wishes and demands. Because a failed control still allows the item to think what it wants, it is having it's powers controlled, not it's mind. As such, I would have to say that Item vs. Possesor is not a Mind Affecting ability, anymore than non-epic Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate are. (Note, Epic Bluff and Epic Diplomacy can in fact result in Mind Affecting abilities - suggestion/Fanatic - but pre-epic you can not do mind affecting things and immunity to Mind Affecting things does not help you against them)
gavagai 01-11-07, 12:14 PM	There is nothing in this section: As such, I would have to say that Item vs. Possesor is not a Mind Affecting ability, anymore than non-epic Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate are. (Note, Epic Bluff and Epic Diplomacy can in fact result in Mind Affecting abilities - suggestion/Fanatic - but pre-epic you can not do mind affecting things and immunity to Mind Affecting things does not help you against them) So you are saying that intelligent items are so smart at beguiling their wearers that they can convince them of their viewpoints in a non magical manner? This might make sense in the way that there is no SR against an intelligent items control (I gather). So this would assume that Undead can be controlled by intelligent items?
Ishatar 01-11-07, 12:38 PM	For me it's just like a commanded result in a reburke undead attempt. :D
tarkin 01-11-07, 01:08 PM	So you are saying that intelligent items are so smart at beguiling their wearers that they can convince them of their viewpoints in a non magical manner? This might make sense in the way that there is no SR against an intelligent items control (I gather). So this would assume that Undead can be controlled by intelligent items? Acutally I see it as more of a body controlling ability, as opppsed to a mind controlling one. Sort of the difference between casting a charm person to get someone to jump into the lake and picking them up and throwing them into the lake. Both cases I make them get into the lake, one way I control their mind, the other way I control their body.
gavagai 01-11-07, 01:31 PM	Tarkin, yes, but controlling the body is IMO Dominate Monster, and thats categorized as mind affecting... strange
Penchant_Conjurer 01-11-07, 02:12 PM	Because a failed control still allows the item to think what it wants, it is having it's powers controlled, not it's mind. That is referrs to the item being controlled. This only means that an artifact cannot mentally control intelligent undead and the intelligent undead cannot silence the speaking abilities of the intelligent item even while forcing it to use its powers. IN other words a wielder resisting the ego attack of an intelligent item can wield the item while not being able to stifle the intelligent presence or its ability to communicate with any means it has. However An intelligent item cannot ego attack a wielder who is undead (or construct for that matter) unless it has specific powers to that effect like command undead or turn ability. This could be one major reason that mages DO go for the lich conversion. Just so they can finally wield the hyper intelligent artifact of evil they've kept trapped in their basement.