Can anyone explain to me how foeresight works? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can anyone explain to me how foeresight works? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tyron
05-31-05, 09:48 AM In our party we have a lot of confusion about how foresight actually works. Can anyone explain?
Crust
05-31-05, 10:25 AM My PCs just started using foresight not long ago.

The caster of foresight (when he/she casts it on him/herself) is never flat-footed, never surprised, and is never subject to sneak attacks.

Secondly, the caster recieves a +2 insight bonus to Ref saves and AC.

The spell states that the subject of the spell has sort of a sixth sense, but that sixth sense ONLY provides the above benefits. Foresight will not allow a PC to sense an incoming arrow and then duck out of the way in complete safety. The sixth sense provided by foresight ONLY provides the above benefits.

Further, that sixth sense kicks in only a fraction of a round prior to the impending attack, so a PC with foresight active would not be able to change actions to possibly avoid danger entirely. A PC with foresight cast could not ready an action to counter a targeted spell, could not choose to simply run away to avoid being attacked.

For example, a PC with foresight who is walking down a dark corridor would know if a rogue were about to attack from the shadows, but that doesn't mean the PC would be able to stop, turn around, and run away, completely avoiding danger. That PC would ONLY receive a +2 to AC and any Ref. saves, and still retain Dex bonuses to AC, thus avoiding sneak attacks and being surprised.

When foresight is cast on another PC, that PC can ONLY be verbally (or mentally, if the option is available) warned of impending danger. This requires the caster to be a certain distance away from the recipient of the spell, which can be a pain in the butt. Rary's telepathic bond clears that up. The caster knows when danger is afoot concerning the recipient, but must communicate that in some way to the recipient, whether verbally or mentally. In such cases, the recipient ONLY receives immunity to being flat-footed, surprised, or sneak attacked. The recipient does not revieve the +2 bonus to Ref. saves and AC.

At least that's how I run it. I have PCs who over-interpret the rules, assuming that foresight will inform the PC of all events that will take place in the round to come, which is clearly not the case.
Will Brandiman
05-31-05, 10:38 AM The caster of foresight (when he/she casts it on him/herself) is never flat-footed, never surprised, and is never subject to sneak attacks.

Secondly, the caster recieves a +2 insight bonus to Ref saves and AC.

The spell states that the subject of the spell has sort of a sixth sense, but that sixth sense ONLY provides the above benefits. Foresight will not allow a PC to sense an incoming arrow and then duck out of the way in complete safety. The sixth sense provided by foresight ONLY provides the above benefits. Which is why this spell has never been used in any of our games. Must rate as the weakest 9th level spell ever.
Crust
05-31-05, 11:15 AM Avoiding sneak attacks is pretty big.

There might also be instances when a PC can use foresight and have actions readied, so that in the event that an incoming spell is targeted, an improved or quickened counterspell could work nicely, or a readied teleport or something like that might allow the PC to avoid damage, but that's a rare situation. If the party is making judicious use of Rary's telepathic bond, foresight can be an excellent precaution while exploring a tomb or dungeon, etc. etc.
Sinon
05-31-05, 11:17 AM I hope this doesn't de-rail your thread, because it involves presenting my understanding of game balance. (I hate that word.)

At very high levels, a wizard can wipe the floor with a fighter-type. The only way the fighter-type can beat him is get so many buffs and potions and magic items that he starts to look suspiciously like a wizard.

On the other hand, a fighter-type, even when surprised, can likely take every thing a rogue can dish out for a surprise round and even for a round of being flat-footed by relying on a high AC and good hit points. After that, his superior martial ability can allow him to cut the rogue down.

A wizard though cannot stand up to the rogue if he is unprepared. If the rogue gets a surprise round against the wizard and wins the initiative in the second round, the wizard will probably not even survive to cast the first spell; his low AC and hit points are going to mean his end.

That's my understanding of game balance:
Fighter-type beats rogue-type
Rogue-type beats wizard-type
Wizard-type beats fighter-type
Cleric-type still beats them all. (I never said it was a good theory.)

What foresight does is shift the scales back in favor of the wizard. He can't be surprised or flat-footed. He'll always be able to cast the spell that takes him out of danger or reduces the rogue to a pile of ash.

From my perspective, foresight is probably then one of the most powerful ninth-level spells.
Will Brandiman
05-31-05, 11:20 AM Avoiding sneak attacks is pretty big. By the time you get to 17th level you can easily be immune to sneak attacks by means of fortification, with the added bonus of being immune to criticals as well.

There might also be instances when a PC can use foresight and have actions readied, so that in the event that an incoming spell is targeted, an improved or quickened counterspell could work nicely, or a readied teleport or something like that might allow the PC to avoid damage, but that's a rare situation. If the party is making judicious use of Rary's telepathic bond, foresight can be an excellent precaution while exploring a tomb or dungeon, etc. etc. That's all very well but requires a great deal of DM approval. Under the RAW, the spell gives +2 insight bonus to reflex saves and AC and that's about it. Pretty weak.
Will Brandiman
05-31-05, 11:25 AM What foresight does is shift the scales back in favor of the wizard. He can't be surprised or flat-footed. He'll always be able to cast the spell that takes him out of danger or reduces the rogue to a pile of ash. Not unless the spell in question has been Quickened. Nowhere does the spell description say that you have time to get a spell off before the foreseen event occurs.
Crust
05-31-05, 11:41 AM I agree completely. However, fortification isn't normally available for wizards and sorcerers.

Also, an insight bonus means that it stacks with enhancement and other bonus descriptors, so there's also that.
Will Brandiman
05-31-05, 11:45 AM I agree completely. However, fortification isn't normally available for wizards and sorcerers. Bracers can be given armour special abilities.

Also, an insight bonus means that it stacks with enhancement and other bonus descriptors, so there's also that. Agreed. Personally I wouldn't use a 9th level slot for that though.
Sinon
05-31-05, 11:53 AM A wizard of this level that doesn't have a couple quickened spells would probably be the exception, but even so, a wizard has a lot better chance of surviving to that next round when he can actually manage to cast a spell if he can eliminate the possibility of taking sneak attack damage.

A seventeenth-level wizard with a +3 con bonus is going to have an average of 112 hit points.

A seventeenth-level rogue is going to average 31.5 damage from sneak attacks with every hit, not counting the weapon damage itself.

If he can land two sneak attack hits is the first round (a surprise round) and one in the second when the wizard is flat-footed, he’s done 94 points of sneak attack damage. Add the damage for the weapon and any magical enhancements a high level rogue is likely to have and your wizard is dead.

If he has foresight, he will likely survive this encounter.
Will Brandiman
06-01-05, 05:46 AM All true, but any 17th level wizard that doesn't have defences against that kind of thing should consider himself bloody lucky to have reached that level at all. Any kind of concealment negates sneak attacks so a Blur spell would be all that is required to ruin the rogues day. Or Mirror Image. Or Displacement, Stoneskin, Contingent spells etc, etc. Plus the fortification ability that I mentioned before. Using a 9th level spell to achieve this is a waste of resources.
Tyron
06-06-05, 10:59 AM Ok...Let me tell you how we use forsight. And could you advice me if this use is inline with the level of power available to ninth level spells.

1) If caster is supprised he gets an immediate swift action that may allow him to cast a swift spell or otherwise minor act regarding to time.

Note that this swift action is subtracted from his normal amount of swift actions available.

2) On the initiative count of the caster the player can ask the dm what kind of threat his sixth sense senses. DM usually gives the most immenent/dangerous threat to caster. This allows the caster to anticipate and act accordingly in his own turn.

Note not all threats are sensed only the most immenent and danegrous threat.

3) Further as spell description.
Drachasor
06-06-05, 11:42 AM This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.

I think the emphasized section above clearly indicates the DM should tell the player when something bad is about to happen him, and what he can do to stop it.

Wether or not the player actually learns much about the danger is another matter, however. If he is about to step on a pit-trap, then the warning might simply be "danger, don't step forward!" which is only moderately helpful in knowing *why* he shouldn't step forward. If an evil wizard, invisible, is about to cast fireball, then the caster would be warned to run behind a corner or something similar (or perhaps cast a protection from fire spell).

All these warnings would be given with just enough time for the caster to act to protect himself, and not a second more. If cast on another, I get the impression you are given enough time to warn the individual. Though this is a bit unclear.

Is it pretty powerful? Yes, but it *is* a 9th level spell. If a player wants to use a 9th level slot to gain greater safety for 3 hours out of the day, then so be it.

Also, I'd not warnings to best protect oneself doesn't imply a complete mitigation of all damage. Sometimes these warnings might not be terribly useful. When about to enter the evil conjuring room of the Epic Necromancer, the warning my well be "leave immediately" for that's the action that might best protect the caster. Generally, to be fair to the player, the warning should provide useful advice, but tend not to give any hint as to what it is protecting him from.

Remember he's giving up spells like Shapechange, Time Stop, Weird, Meteor Swarm, and Prismatic Sphere to cast this instead. So make sure it is actually useful, for the measly +2 bonus and not being flat footed are minor benefits.

-Drachasor
Sinon
06-06-05, 11:47 AM In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself
I assume that this means that you have the time to take such action. I would think that you have at least a full round of notice in most situations. It is a ninth-level spell. I don’t think that should mean you can cast it in the morning and get information about the source every possible threat you will face that day, but it should be a pretty powerful protection, so the DM should be pretty open on what is allowed in these situations.

Any kind of concealment negates sneak attacks so a Blur spell would be all that is required to ruin the rogues day. Or Mirror Image. Or Displacement, Stoneskin, Contingent spells etc, etc. All true. But what foresight does is let you have just this one spell active, and then, when the danger appears, you'll know which, if any, of the above is the best countermeasure.
You are totally correct about the fortification. But that doesn't mean that this is not a darn powerful spell.
mvincent
06-06-05, 12:06 PM For example, a PC with foresight who is walking down a dark corridor would know if a rogue were about to attack from the shadows, but that doesn't mean the PC would be able to stop, turn around, and run away, completely avoiding danger. That PC would ONLY receive a +2 to AC and any Ref. saves, and still retain Dex bonuses to AC, thus avoiding sneak attacks and being surprised.

When foresight is cast on another PC, that PC can ONLY be verbally (or mentally, if the option is available) warned of impending danger.

Your interpretation (only allowing combat benefits) seems incongruous with the intent of the spell, which seems to warn you of impending danger even ouside of combat.

The rules state that:
"Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves."

If you allow only the combat bonuses, I'm not certain what benefit you would provide if a wizard cast this on another person.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tyron 05-31-05, 09:48 AM	In our party we have a lot of confusion about how foresight actually works. Can anyone explain?
Crust 05-31-05, 10:25 AM	My PCs just started using foresight not long ago. The caster of foresight (when he/she casts it on him/herself) is never flat-footed, never surprised, and is never subject to sneak attacks. Secondly, the caster recieves a +2 insight bonus to Ref saves and AC. The spell states that the subject of the spell has sort of a sixth sense, but that sixth sense ONLY provides the above benefits. Foresight will not allow a PC to sense an incoming arrow and then duck out of the way in complete safety. The sixth sense provided by foresight ONLY provides the above benefits. Further, that sixth sense kicks in only a fraction of a round prior to the impending attack, so a PC with foresight active would not be able to change actions to possibly avoid danger entirely. A PC with foresight cast could not ready an action to counter a targeted spell, could not choose to simply run away to avoid being attacked. For example, a PC with foresight who is walking down a dark corridor would know if a rogue were about to attack from the shadows, but that doesn't mean the PC would be able to stop, turn around, and run away, completely avoiding danger. That PC would ONLY receive a +2 to AC and any Ref. saves, and still retain Dex bonuses to AC, thus avoiding sneak attacks and being surprised. When foresight is cast on another PC, that PC can ONLY be verbally (or mentally, if the option is available) warned of impending danger. This requires the caster to be a certain distance away from the recipient of the spell, which can be a pain in the butt. Rary's telepathic bond clears that up. The caster knows when danger is afoot concerning the recipient, but must communicate that in some way to the recipient, whether verbally or mentally. In such cases, the recipient ONLY receives immunity to being flat-footed, surprised, or sneak attacked. The recipient does not revieve the +2 bonus to Ref. saves and AC. At least that's how I run it. I have PCs who over-interpret the rules, assuming that foresight will inform the PC of all events that will take place in the round to come, which is clearly not the case.
Will Brandiman 05-31-05, 10:38 AM	The caster of foresight (when he/she casts it on him/herself) is never flat-footed, never surprised, and is never subject to sneak attacks. Secondly, the caster recieves a +2 insight bonus to Ref saves and AC. The spell states that the subject of the spell has sort of a sixth sense, but that sixth sense ONLY provides the above benefits. Foresight will not allow a PC to sense an incoming arrow and then duck out of the way in complete safety. The sixth sense provided by foresight ONLY provides the above benefits. Which is why this spell has never been used in any of our games. Must rate as the weakest 9th level spell ever.
Crust 05-31-05, 11:15 AM	Avoiding sneak attacks is pretty big. There might also be instances when a PC can use foresight and have actions readied, so that in the event that an incoming spell is targeted, an improved or quickened counterspell could work nicely, or a readied teleport or something like that might allow the PC to avoid damage, but that's a rare situation. If the party is making judicious use of Rary's telepathic bond, foresight can be an excellent precaution while exploring a tomb or dungeon, etc. etc.
Sinon 05-31-05, 11:17 AM	I hope this doesn't de-rail your thread, because it involves presenting my understanding of game balance. (I hate that word.) At very high levels, a wizard can wipe the floor with a fighter-type. The only way the fighter-type can beat him is get so many buffs and potions and magic items that he starts to look suspiciously like a wizard. On the other hand, a fighter-type, even when surprised, can likely take every thing a rogue can dish out for a surprise round and even for a round of being flat-footed by relying on a high AC and good hit points. After that, his superior martial ability can allow him to cut the rogue down. A wizard though cannot stand up to the rogue if he is unprepared. If the rogue gets a surprise round against the wizard and wins the initiative in the second round, the wizard will probably not even survive to cast the first spell; his low AC and hit points are going to mean his end. That's my understanding of game balance: Fighter-type beats rogue-type Rogue-type beats wizard-type Wizard-type beats fighter-type Cleric-type still beats them all. (I never said it was a good theory.) What foresight does is shift the scales back in favor of the wizard. He can't be surprised or flat-footed. He'll always be able to cast the spell that takes him out of danger or reduces the rogue to a pile of ash. From my perspective, foresight is probably then one of the most powerful ninth-level spells.
Will Brandiman 05-31-05, 11:20 AM	Avoiding sneak attacks is pretty big. By the time you get to 17th level you can easily be immune to sneak attacks by means of fortification, with the added bonus of being immune to criticals as well. There might also be instances when a PC can use foresight and have actions readied, so that in the event that an incoming spell is targeted, an improved or quickened counterspell could work nicely, or a readied teleport or something like that might allow the PC to avoid damage, but that's a rare situation. If the party is making judicious use of Rary's telepathic bond, foresight can be an excellent precaution while exploring a tomb or dungeon, etc. etc. That's all very well but requires a great deal of DM approval. Under the RAW, the spell gives +2 insight bonus to reflex saves and AC and that's about it. Pretty weak.
Will Brandiman 05-31-05, 11:25 AM	What foresight does is shift the scales back in favor of the wizard. He can't be surprised or flat-footed. He'll always be able to cast the spell that takes him out of danger or reduces the rogue to a pile of ash. Not unless the spell in question has been Quickened. Nowhere does the spell description say that you have time to get a spell off before the foreseen event occurs.
Crust 05-31-05, 11:41 AM	I agree completely. However, fortification isn't normally available for wizards and sorcerers. Also, an insight bonus means that it stacks with enhancement and other bonus descriptors, so there's also that.
Will Brandiman 05-31-05, 11:45 AM	I agree completely. However, fortification isn't normally available for wizards and sorcerers. Bracers can be given armour special abilities. Also, an insight bonus means that it stacks with enhancement and other bonus descriptors, so there's also that. Agreed. Personally I wouldn't use a 9th level slot for that though.
Sinon 05-31-05, 11:53 AM	A wizard of this level that doesn't have a couple quickened spells would probably be the exception, but even so, a wizard has a lot better chance of surviving to that next round when he can actually manage to cast a spell if he can eliminate the possibility of taking sneak attack damage. A seventeenth-level wizard with a +3 con bonus is going to have an average of 112 hit points. A seventeenth-level rogue is going to average 31.5 damage from sneak attacks with every hit, not counting the weapon damage itself. If he can land two sneak attack hits is the first round (a surprise round) and one in the second when the wizard is flat-footed, he’s done 94 points of sneak attack damage. Add the damage for the weapon and any magical enhancements a high level rogue is likely to have and your wizard is dead. If he has foresight, he will likely survive this encounter.
Will Brandiman 06-01-05, 05:46 AM	All true, but any 17th level wizard that doesn't have defences against that kind of thing should consider himself bloody lucky to have reached that level at all. Any kind of concealment negates sneak attacks so a Blur spell would be all that is required to ruin the rogues day. Or Mirror Image. Or Displacement, Stoneskin, Contingent spells etc, etc. Plus the fortification ability that I mentioned before. Using a 9th level spell to achieve this is a waste of resources.
Tyron 06-06-05, 10:59 AM	Ok...Let me tell you how we use forsight. And could you advice me if this use is inline with the level of power available to ninth level spells. 1) If caster is supprised he gets an immediate swift action that may allow him to cast a swift spell or otherwise minor act regarding to time. Note that this swift action is subtracted from his normal amount of swift actions available. 2) On the initiative count of the caster the player can ask the dm what kind of threat his sixth sense senses. DM usually gives the most immenent/dangerous threat to caster. This allows the caster to anticipate and act accordingly in his own turn. Note not all threats are sensed only the most immenent and danegrous threat. 3) Further as spell description.
Drachasor 06-06-05, 11:42 AM	This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC. I think the emphasized section above clearly indicates the DM should tell the player when something bad is about to happen him, and what he can do to stop it. Wether or not the player actually learns much about the danger is another matter, however. If he is about to step on a pit-trap, then the warning might simply be "danger, don't step forward!" which is only moderately helpful in knowing why he shouldn't step forward. If an evil wizard, invisible, is about to cast fireball, then the caster would be warned to run behind a corner or something similar (or perhaps cast a protection from fire spell). All these warnings would be given with just enough time for the caster to act to protect himself, and not a second more. If cast on another, I get the impression you are given enough time to warn the individual. Though this is a bit unclear. Is it pretty powerful? Yes, but it is a 9th level spell. If a player wants to use a 9th level slot to gain greater safety for 3 hours out of the day, then so be it. Also, I'd not warnings to best protect oneself doesn't imply a complete mitigation of all damage. Sometimes these warnings might not be terribly useful. When about to enter the evil conjuring room of the Epic Necromancer, the warning my well be "leave immediately" for that's the action that might best protect the caster. Generally, to be fair to the player, the warning should provide useful advice, but tend not to give any hint as to what it is protecting him from. Remember he's giving up spells like Shapechange, Time Stop, Weird, Meteor Swarm, and Prismatic Sphere to cast this instead. So make sure it is actually useful, for the measly +2 bonus and not being flat footed are minor benefits. -Drachasor
Sinon 06-06-05, 11:47 AM	In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself I assume that this means that you have the time to take such action. I would think that you have at least a full round of notice in most situations. It is a ninth-level spell. I don’t think that should mean you can cast it in the morning and get information about the source every possible threat you will face that day, but it should be a pretty powerful protection, so the DM should be pretty open on what is allowed in these situations. Any kind of concealment negates sneak attacks so a Blur spell would be all that is required to ruin the rogues day. Or Mirror Image. Or Displacement, Stoneskin, Contingent spells etc, etc. All true. But what foresight does is let you have just this one spell active, and then, when the danger appears, you'll know which, if any, of the above is the best countermeasure. You are totally correct about the fortification. But that doesn't mean that this is not a darn powerful spell.
mvincent 06-06-05, 12:06 PM	For example, a PC with foresight who is walking down a dark corridor would know if a rogue were about to attack from the shadows, but that doesn't mean the PC would be able to stop, turn around, and run away, completely avoiding danger. That PC would ONLY receive a +2 to AC and any Ref. saves, and still retain Dex bonuses to AC, thus avoiding sneak attacks and being surprised. When foresight is cast on another PC, that PC can ONLY be verbally (or mentally, if the option is available) warned of impending danger. Your interpretation (only allowing combat benefits) seems incongruous with the intent of the spell, which seems to warn you of impending danger even ouside of combat. The rules state that: "Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves." If you allow only the combat bonuses, I'm not certain what benefit you would provide if a wizard cast this on another person.