Can Artificers research magic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Artificers research magic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kuroimaken
02-20-08, 11:52 PM Topic.

The short answer: NO, because they can't research infusions, which are like magic in their own right.

The long answer: maybe. While the book does state Artificers cannot research new infusions, it never actually mentions they can't research non-infusion magic. And as we all know, Artificers CAN emulate any spell for the purpose of creating magic items.
So it gets you thinking: doesn't he have to know how to structure magic in order to emulate the scrolls? Doesn't that mean Artificers would know more about how to develop a spell (but not cast it himself) than anyone else? After all, he can make a scroll of whatever class he wants, arcane or divine. The only other class you see doing that is the Mystic Theurge and he's multiclassed by definition. An Artificer is very focused in his dealings with magic, on the other hand.

I realize that giving Artificers the ability to research their own spells could make them incredibly powerful, depending on how devious the DM or the players get. But:

1) He can't cast them himself (it's not an infusion)
2) He can't transfer that spell to anyone else, since Artificer-made scrolls cannot be used to transfer spells to spellbooks.

so I think it can balance out.

Thoughts?
Amaril
02-21-08, 09:26 AM Actually, they can research infusions. Magic of Eberron suggests the idea for including the new infusions presented in that book as well as others. See Magic of Eberron, p.10.
DracoPhoenix
02-21-08, 11:57 AM I think No - because they don't need to might be more accurate. Otherwise, meeting item spell pre-reqs is a bit tricky.

They don't so much create a scroll of fireball as a scroll that creates a firey blast at a certain distance, inflicting so much damage.

It gets close to symantics.

As to the "game shattering" spell you hint at, they could do it no more easily that a wizard (I.e. DM says no), but they'd also have to put it on a scroll or wand etc.
So in a way it's safer. A wizard or sorc could create "summon pun pun" and cast it when ever they want (per day limits apply). The Artificer's version is pretty much one shot.
Kuroimaken
02-22-08, 04:14 PM Actually, they can research infusions. Magic of Eberron suggests the idea for including the new infusions presented in that book as well as others. See Magic of Eberron, p.10.

Hmmm, hadn't read that one. Guess that changes the short answer to another maybe, or possibly a yes.

I think No - because they don't need to might be more accurate. Otherwise, meeting item spell pre-reqs is a bit tricky.

They don't so much create a scroll of fireball as a scroll that creates a firey blast at a certain distance, inflicting so much damage.

It gets close to symantics.

As to the "game shattering" spell you hint at, they could do it no more easily that a wizard (I.e. DM says no), but they'd also have to put it on a scroll or wand etc.
So in a way it's safer. A wizard or sorc could create "summon pun pun" and cast it when ever they want (per day limits apply). The Artificer's version is pretty much one shot. Er, meeting item spell pre-reqs for the artificer is ALREADY tricky. You have to figure the lowest level the spell can be cast at, or the Artificer loses money.

As for the Fireball example... I guess the big question is this. If it looks like a Fireball, burns like a Fireball, sounds like a Fireball and hurts like a Fireball, all exactly the same, why don't you just say "it's exactly the same as a Fireball" and call it a day?

I didn't hint at any "game shattering" spell. I mean, a Gate linking to the Negative Energy Plane under your feet is pretty much a game over, but you didn't hear me saying anything about that.

So... I'm not really sure whether you're thinking yes or no.
Roelandt
02-22-08, 09:02 PM Yes they can research new Infustions as indicated in Magic of Eberron. Can they CREATE new infusions? It doesn't say but I would say, no way...they are already powerful enough.

Can they research other spells? No. Not only aren't they arcane or divine casters, and therefore don't have the means, they don't need to. Using Spell Storing Item, a first level infuison, they can store off the top of their head any spell effect from any class within their usalbe spell level into an item for them to cast at the cost of some xp and a successful UMD check. Why bother researching when you can create one on a whim?

In this way, Artificers are, baring UMD, xp cost, and max spell level, omnipotent.

Cleric: Dude, sorry. I don't have cure disease available.
Artificer: Don't worry...[successful UMD check]...got it right here.

Wizard: Dude, sorry. I don't have disintigrate memorized to pass this wall of force.
Artificer: Don't worry...[successful UMD check]...got it right here....and once we're past it I'll put it back up.

Fighter: Dude, sorry. Our party is all dead, along with our cleric. How are we gonna get outta here, let alone bring them along to rez them?
Artificer: Don't worry...[successful UMD check]...got [rez][teleport][hoard gullet][wish] right here.

Researching is irrelevent when you can already do everything.
Kuroimaken
02-22-08, 10:14 PM No offense, Roelandt...

But what the hell have you been SMOKING?!

Seriously, Spell-storing Item is hardly half as powerful an infusion as you figure it is. For one, it has an XP component, that scales up as your caster level rises. Small, yes, but XP does NOT grow on trees!

Secondly, the check is nothing to sneeze at. It STARTS at 23 -- for FIRST level spells, that is. I don't think that's easy to do at low levels -- just think: 4 ranks on UMD, +4 Charisma (I'm assuming an 18 starting charisma here, which is more often than not an option for most), maybe Skill Focus if you're that driven, for a whooping +11 to your check. That means you need a 12 or more to pass. Now, I'm not very good with percentages, but that means that over half the time, you -fail- at first level. And I don't want to think of what the mishap might do to you if your DM is half as devious as mine.

Thirdly, but not less important, Spell-storing item is limited to 4th level spells. Granted, he can do it with 1st-level infusions, and then progress up his levels to recharge, but this cap means he's not half as 'omnipotent' as you make him out to be. The lowest ressurrection spell, Raise Dead, is 5th. Disintegrate is 6th... you get the idea.

Can they research other spells? No. Not only aren't they arcane or divine casters, and therefore don't have the means, they don't need to. Using Spell Storing Item, a first level infuison, they can store off the top of their head any spell effect from any class within their usalbe spell level into an item for them to cast at the cost of some xp and a successful UMD check. Why bother researching when you can create one on a whim?
Right... so they can fool a Holy Avenger into thinking the resident Chaotic Evil necromancer lich munching on babies and bathing in human guts is a paladin (for a minimum of 50 minutes, no less), they can fool the universe -- the UNIVERSE, I tell you -- into thinking they actually know and cast spells to enchant items, they can actually create magic items easier than actual dedicated casters (and making them look like chumps in that regard, in the process), but they don't have the means to research spells on account of not being able to cast them directly?

This sound wrong to anyone else?

Like I mentioned, the limiter to Artificer research would be that no other class can use the same spells. I think this could actually add a bit of flavor and uniqueness to the Artificer rather than him stealing the thunder of other casters.
the_dark_one_of_twilight
02-22-08, 11:05 PM Artificers could research ideas for new infusions but not the formula
what that essentially means is that they see a fireball they cant replicate it exactly but it can however make a copy of the fireball
he could research spells from other sources but he cannot cast them
he can however mimic those abilities of the spell but he will not be able to cast them
the way that he makes his magic is by using something that is specific to him to make the spell like divine spells have domains artificers have their own way to make magic
so yes they could research it but they would have to make it an infussion to emulate its effect

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuroimaken 02-20-08, 11:52 PM	Topic. The short answer: NO, because they can't research infusions, which are like magic in their own right. The long answer: maybe. While the book does state Artificers cannot research new infusions, it never actually mentions they can't research non-infusion magic. And as we all know, Artificers CAN emulate any spell for the purpose of creating magic items. So it gets you thinking: doesn't he have to know how to structure magic in order to emulate the scrolls? Doesn't that mean Artificers would know more about how to develop a spell (but not cast it himself) than anyone else? After all, he can make a scroll of whatever class he wants, arcane or divine. The only other class you see doing that is the Mystic Theurge and he's multiclassed by definition. An Artificer is very focused in his dealings with magic, on the other hand. I realize that giving Artificers the ability to research their own spells could make them incredibly powerful, depending on how devious the DM or the players get. But: 1) He can't cast them himself (it's not an infusion) 2) He can't transfer that spell to anyone else, since Artificer-made scrolls cannot be used to transfer spells to spellbooks. so I think it can balance out. Thoughts?
Amaril 02-21-08, 09:26 AM	Actually, they can research infusions. Magic of Eberron suggests the idea for including the new infusions presented in that book as well as others. See Magic of Eberron, p.10.
DracoPhoenix 02-21-08, 11:57 AM	I think No - because they don't need to might be more accurate. Otherwise, meeting item spell pre-reqs is a bit tricky. They don't so much create a scroll of fireball as a scroll that creates a firey blast at a certain distance, inflicting so much damage. It gets close to symantics. As to the "game shattering" spell you hint at, they could do it no more easily that a wizard (I.e. DM says no), but they'd also have to put it on a scroll or wand etc. So in a way it's safer. A wizard or sorc could create "summon pun pun" and cast it when ever they want (per day limits apply). The Artificer's version is pretty much one shot.
Kuroimaken 02-22-08, 04:14 PM	Actually, they can research infusions. Magic of Eberron suggests the idea for including the new infusions presented in that book as well as others. See Magic of Eberron, p.10. Hmmm, hadn't read that one. Guess that changes the short answer to another maybe, or possibly a yes. I think No - because they don't need to might be more accurate. Otherwise, meeting item spell pre-reqs is a bit tricky. They don't so much create a scroll of fireball as a scroll that creates a firey blast at a certain distance, inflicting so much damage. It gets close to symantics. As to the "game shattering" spell you hint at, they could do it no more easily that a wizard (I.e. DM says no), but they'd also have to put it on a scroll or wand etc. So in a way it's safer. A wizard or sorc could create "summon pun pun" and cast it when ever they want (per day limits apply). The Artificer's version is pretty much one shot. Er, meeting item spell pre-reqs for the artificer is ALREADY tricky. You have to figure the lowest level the spell can be cast at, or the Artificer loses money. As for the Fireball example... I guess the big question is this. If it looks like a Fireball, burns like a Fireball, sounds like a Fireball and hurts like a Fireball, all exactly the same, why don't you just say "it's exactly the same as a Fireball" and call it a day? I didn't hint at any "game shattering" spell. I mean, a Gate linking to the Negative Energy Plane under your feet is pretty much a game over, but you didn't hear me saying anything about that. So... I'm not really sure whether you're thinking yes or no.
Roelandt 02-22-08, 09:02 PM	Yes they can research new Infustions as indicated in Magic of Eberron. Can they CREATE new infusions? It doesn't say but I would say, no way...they are already powerful enough. Can they research other spells? No. Not only aren't they arcane or divine casters, and therefore don't have the means, they don't need to. Using Spell Storing Item, a first level infuison, they can store off the top of their head any spell effect from any class within their usalbe spell level into an item for them to cast at the cost of some xp and a successful UMD check. Why bother researching when you can create one on a whim? In this way, Artificers are, baring UMD, xp cost, and max spell level, omnipotent. Cleric: Dude, sorry. I don't have cure disease available. Artificer: Don't worry...[successful UMD check]...got it right here. Wizard: Dude, sorry. I don't have disintigrate memorized to pass this wall of force. Artificer: Don't worry...[successful UMD check]...got it right here....and once we're past it I'll put it back up. Fighter: Dude, sorry. Our party is all dead, along with our cleric. How are we gonna get outta here, let alone bring them along to rez them? Artificer: Don't worry...[successful UMD check]...got [rez][teleport][hoard gullet][wish] right here. Researching is irrelevent when you can already do everything.
Kuroimaken 02-22-08, 10:14 PM	No offense, Roelandt... But what the hell have you been SMOKING?! Seriously, Spell-storing Item is hardly half as powerful an infusion as you figure it is. For one, it has an XP component, that scales up as your caster level rises. Small, yes, but XP does NOT grow on trees! Secondly, the check is nothing to sneeze at. It STARTS at 23 -- for FIRST level spells, that is. I don't think that's easy to do at low levels -- just think: 4 ranks on UMD, +4 Charisma (I'm assuming an 18 starting charisma here, which is more often than not an option for most), maybe Skill Focus if you're that driven, for a whooping +11 to your check. That means you need a 12 or more to pass. Now, I'm not very good with percentages, but that means that over half the time, you -fail- at first level. And I don't want to think of what the mishap might do to you if your DM is half as devious as mine. Thirdly, but not less important, Spell-storing item is limited to 4th level spells. Granted, he can do it with 1st-level infusions, and then progress up his levels to recharge, but this cap means he's not half as 'omnipotent' as you make him out to be. The lowest ressurrection spell, Raise Dead, is 5th. Disintegrate is 6th... you get the idea. Can they research other spells? No. Not only aren't they arcane or divine casters, and therefore don't have the means, they don't need to. Using Spell Storing Item, a first level infuison, they can store off the top of their head any spell effect from any class within their usalbe spell level into an item for them to cast at the cost of some xp and a successful UMD check. Why bother researching when you can create one on a whim? Right... so they can fool a Holy Avenger into thinking the resident Chaotic Evil necromancer lich munching on babies and bathing in human guts is a paladin (for a minimum of 50 minutes, no less), they can fool the universe -- the UNIVERSE, I tell you -- into thinking they actually know and cast spells to enchant items, they can actually create magic items easier than actual dedicated casters (and making them look like chumps in that regard, in the process), but they don't have the means to research spells on account of not being able to cast them directly? This sound wrong to anyone else? Like I mentioned, the limiter to Artificer research would be that no other class can use the same spells. I think this could actually add a bit of flavor and uniqueness to the Artificer rather than him stealing the thunder of other casters.
the_dark_one_of_twilight 02-22-08, 11:05 PM	Artificers could research ideas for new infusions but not the formula what that essentially means is that they see a fireball they cant replicate it exactly but it can however make a copy of the fireball he could research spells from other sources but he cannot cast them he can however mimic those abilities of the spell but he will not be able to cast them the way that he makes his magic is by using something that is specific to him to make the spell like divine spells have domains artificers have their own way to make magic so yes they could research it but they would have to make it an infussion to emulate its effect