Can blinking really be this...uber? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can blinking really be this...uber? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Llathos
03-07-05, 01:20 PM Ring of Blinking - DMG - 27,000gp
+1 ghost touch weapon - 8000gp

So, for the bargain price of 35,000gp...

1/2 AoE dmg
1/2 falling damage
all opponents are denied their dex when you attack them
all attacks are sneak attacks
+2 to attack roll b/c you are attacking as "invisible"
and of course, best of all: 50% miss chance on you unless your opponent can attack ethereal and see invisible

Can it be countered? Yes.

WOULD it be encountered unless a DM is meta-DMing? Probably not with the exception of the occasional cleric or mage throwing a dispel magic in the direction of the planar spaz.

So, in the majority of encounters, you get all the above benefits for this ridiculously low cost. How...is this not the cheesiest thing you've ever seen?
Vatras
03-07-05, 01:31 PM There is no such thing as meta-DMing :)

We are supposed to provide challenges to the PCs no matter what they come up with, else they would get bored soon.
was_fired
03-07-05, 01:32 PM Ghost touch does nothing to prevent the miss chance from blink. You are ethereal, not incorporal. There is no attack which may go from the ethereal plane to the material plane. Likewise ghost touch does not extend from the material plane to the ethereal plane.
dantedarkstar
03-07-05, 01:38 PM Short version:
Ghost Touch weapon does NOT negate your miss chance when you blink.

Long version:
Ghost touch weapon allows to ignore "miss" chance against incorporeal targets, and also allows incorporeal creatures to wield it.

When blinking, you become ETHEREAL, which is different from INCORPOREAL. Ghost touch weapon doesn't help a tiny bit blinking character.

While the Blink spell has some stuff about incorporeal messed up, the fact that you are ethereal supersedes the fact that you are incorporeal (as the spell description says, but it isn't true, the abilities listed for being "incorporeal" in spell description are in reality the abilities of being ethereal alone; if you would be incorporeal, not ethereal, the effects of the spell overall would be much different).

The point:
It doesn't work as you think it does. :D

Edit:
Oh yes, and simple Blind-Fight feat on opponent means you no longer get any bonuses when attacking while blinking. They get to keep Dex (no sneaks) and you don't get +2.
Llathos
03-07-05, 04:55 PM First off, I disagree wholeheartedly. There is such a thing as meta-DMing. Your PC decides he wants to put flaming on his weapon, and suddenly all the enemies he encounters have DR against fire. It's lame, and some DMs do it.

Coming up with bizarre and senseless combinations of effects in your encounters tailored to stop the PC's choice of progression is meta-DMing, and as I said, it's lame.

Secondly, thanks for the clarification. It makes complete sense now, and is actually somewhat sensible in my mind. Of course, if you took 3 levels of PrC Planar Champion, then we're right back where we started ;-)
Talchar
03-07-05, 08:30 PM Short version:

When blinking, you become ETHEREAL, which is different from INCORPOREAL. Ghost touch weapon doesn't help a tiny bit blinking character.

It doesn't work as you think it does. :D

.

Er? Ok, you lost me on the this Ethereal vs Incorporeal difference. Per the SRD "A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane. "

This would mean, that Ethereal is positional reference, and Incorporeal is a condition term.

As in, Jack is in the Ethereal plane looking for his dog.
Oppossed to: The wizard, dodges left and targets the Incorporeal Ghost with a magic missile. (The ghost is in the Ethereal Plane, and when it interacts with a material plane creature, it has incorporeal traits. )

Next, Ghost Touch Weapons: Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

Thus, a ring of blinking, renders the wearer Incorporeal (A condition effect of being ethereal interacting with a material creature) A ghost touch weapon suffers no miss chance when striking a blinking creature, nor does a blinking creature suffer a miss chance a miss chance when armed with a ghost touch weapon.
wonlee76
03-07-05, 08:37 PM Er? Ok, you lost me on the this Ethereal vs Incorporeal difference. Per the SRD "A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane. "

This would mean, that Ethereal is positional reference, and Incorporeal is a condition term.

As in, Jack is in the Ethereal plane looking for his dog.
Oppossed to: The wizard, dodges left and targets the Incorporeal Ghost with a magic missile. (The ghost is in the Ethereal Plane, and when it interacts with a material plane creature, it has incorporeal traits. )

Next, Ghost Touch Weapons: Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

Thus, a ring of blinking, renders the wearer Incorporeal (A condition effect of being ethereal interacting with a material creature) A ghost touch weapon suffers no miss chance when striking a blinking creature, nor does a blinking creature suffer a miss chance a miss chance when armed with a ghost touch weapon.

Incorporeal state is something referenced for undead creatures like shadows, ghosts, etc. These monsters don't exist on the ethereal plane. They're just incorporeal.

Etherealness is in reference to a plane of existence outside of the material plane. So etherealness is similar to being incorporeal when it comes to interacting with the "real" world but they are not the same.

SRD for Ghost Touch Weapon:
Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

Not a single reference to etherealness. Just reference to being incorporeal.
Llathos
03-07-05, 08:38 PM Ok, so now there is a dissident.

So, simple question:

Does ghost touch mean the same as "attack ethereal" ?

If the answer is yes, then we can deduce that incorporeal = ethereal.

Does a ghost exist on the ethereal plane b/c it's incorporeal? If so, then I'd suggest that ghost touch can attack ethereal.

The 8th level spell "Ghost Form" makes you incorporeal. Does it mention the ethereal state?
Llathos
03-07-05, 08:39 PM Ok, I think wonlee76 cleared up the confusion.

Thanks.
Vatras
03-07-05, 09:11 PM Jack is wet. Fishes are wet. Therefore Jack must be a fish.

Ethereal beings are incorporeal, but not all incorporeal things are ethereal.
D'Nabre
03-07-05, 09:20 PM Ignoring the Incorporeal/Ethereal debate, the ghost touch weapon won't help:

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

The 50% miss chance from blinking is from you becoming incorporeal at random. When you blink out (the 50% of the time when you'd miss) what is the more beneficial state for the weapon? If it's corporeal, it will be able to hit your opponent, but you won't be able to hold it, if it's incorporeal you can keep hold of it (being incorporeal yourself) but you can't hurt a corporeal foe. I'd say keeping hold of your sword is better than dropping, but either way you'd not going to be able to attack people with it any more of the time than with a normal weapon.
smrtgmp
03-07-05, 11:37 PM There is no such thing as meta-DMing :)

We are supposed to provide challenges to the PCs no matter what they come up with, else they would get bored soon.
I couldn't disagree more. My DM doesnt like my telepath (or spell casters in general), so now all of a sudden every enemy we face has levels of cleric (or something else with a good will save) so that I can't charm anything. Providing challenges is one thing. Designing encounters so that a PCs abilities are rendered nearly useless on a regular basis is another.
Talchar
03-08-05, 12:46 AM Incorporeal state is something referenced for undead creatures like shadows, ghosts, etc. These monsters don't exist on the ethereal plane. They're just incorporeal.

Etherealness is in reference to a plane of existence outside of the material plane. So etherealness is similar to being incorporeal when it comes to interacting with the "real" world but they are not the same.

SRD for Ghost Touch Weapon:
Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

Not a single reference to etherealness. Just reference to being incorporeal.

Looking a tad deeper into this, I can see where your get your idea from. There is some badly written material out there. In relation to your statement about no reference to etheralness.... A ghost is an ethereal creature.

Long and short of it, I believe Vatras has it right. An Ethereal creature is incorporeal, but not all incorporeal cratures are etheral. As a practical matter, there is little difference except when it comes to spells that block dimensional movement. IE: A dimensional lock can keep out an ethereal creature, but not a incorpeal creature.
dantedarkstar
03-08-05, 04:12 AM Actually being ethereal does NOT make you incorporeal.

SRD, Special Abilities:
ETHEREALNESS
Phase spiders and certain other creatures can exist on the Ethereal Plane. While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal. Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane.
Emphasis added.

SRD, Special Abilities, Incorporeality
Incorporeal creatures are present on the same plane as the characters, and characters have some chance to affect them.
...
Incorporeal creatures are immune to critical hits, extra damage from being favored enemies, and from sneak attacks.
Note that ethereal creatures in no way get immunity to critical hits by just being ethereal. Blink users also don't get any immunities of incorporeal creatures.

In other words, some references to etherealness (like the one in Blink spell) are just messed. They say "incorporeal", but that is NOT the case. It's simple etherealness, that has NOTHING to do with incorporeality.

About ghosts, they are ethereal, but they can have incorporeal manifestations on material plane.
Again, SRD, Special Abilities, Etherealness (weird place to write about ghosts in particular, huh ?)
Ghosts have a power called manifestation that allows them to appear on the Material Plane as incorporeal creatures. Still, they are on the Ethereal Plane, and another ethereal creature can interact normally with a manifesting ghost.
Talchar
03-08-05, 05:19 AM Actually being ethereal does NOT make you incorporeal.

Upon further review, your statement is correct. An Ethereal creature, is not incorporial by difinition. However, an Ethereal creature, for most cases, is functionally identifcal to incorporeal creatures.
[/QUOTE]

The distinction is quite fine, and even the game designers admit, that they use the terms incorporeal and ethereal interchangably. ( IMO: A example of bad editing, likely a legacy effect of prior editions still influencing current designers and most likely, a fine distinction that no one really bothered to think through)

That said, if you go the "Rules of the Game" section, there is an article directly on point.

Ghosts and Ghost Touch Items

A manifested ghost using ghost touch equipment can do so either as a corporeal or an incorporeal user, depending on exactly where the ghost touch equipment is..."

1) Etheral (with Ghost Touch) vs Material with Ghost Touch

"
If a ghost on the Ethereal Plane has ghost touch equipment with it on that plane, however, then it uses ghost touch weaponry as a corporeal creature on the Material Plane does when attacking a foe on the Material Plane. (That is, the ghost has no miss chance, it makes a regular attack that must deal with the target's armor, and the ghost's Strength score applies to the attack and damage rolls.)"

2) Material vs Etheral (with etheral Ghost Touch armor)
"Against most attacks, ghost touch armor worn on the Ethereal Plane protects a manifested ghost the same way it protects an incorporeal creature. The ghost retains its incorporeal miss chance and gains only the armor's enhancement bonus to its Armor Class."

3) Material (W Ghost Touch vs Etheral)

Against a ghost touch weapon wielded on the Material Plane, a manifested ghost still uses its manifested Armor Class, though there is no incorporeal miss chance. (The manifested ghost's equipment remains insubstantial against foes on the Material Plane.)

If a manifested ghost wears ghost touch armor, the full value of that armor applies against a ghost touch weapon, and the ghost still gets its deflection bonus for being incorporeal. If the same attacker moved to the Ethereal Plane, the ghost would lose its deflection bonus to Armor Class.

Review

I may be reading this article incorrectly. The writing seems a tad vague. So this is my best interpertation.

A) To me, it seems clear that Etheral creature can strike a Material creature with a ghost touch weapon. No miss chance and you use the Ghost STR value.

B) Material Ghost weapon vs Etheral Ghost: Ghost AC is the Ghosts manifiested AC without a miss chance.

C) Material Ghost weapon vs Etheral Ghost with Ghost Armor: Ghost AC is the Ghosts manifiested Deflection AC + Standard Armor Bonus, without a miss chance.

D) Etheral Ghost Touch Weapon vs Etheral Ghost: Ghost AC is per the Ghosts standard Armor AC with Deflection Bonus.
dantedarkstar
03-08-05, 07:00 AM You are wrong on point #1 (A). The sentence from article applies to MANIFESTING ghost. Manifestation makes him appear on material plane as incorporeal creature and the sentence means that the weapon is manifested along with him and works as if it was on material plane. In other words it works.

A manifested ghost using ghost touch equipment can do so either as a corporeal or an incorporeal user, depending on exactly where the ghost touch equipment is. If a manifested ghost finds a ghost touch weapon or ghost touch armor just lying on the Material Plane, it can handle and use that ghost touch equipment in exactly the same way that an incorporeal creature can. If a ghost on the Ethereal Plane has ghost touch equipment with it on that plane, however, then it uses ghost touch weaponry as a corporeal creature on the Material Plane does when attacking a foe on the Material Plane. (That is, the ghost has no miss chance, it makes a regular attack that must deal with the target's armor, and the ghost's Strength score applies to the attack and damage rolls.)

All the paragraph applies to manifesting ghost, since unless he manifests he cannot affect material plane AT ALL (nothing crosses ethereal->material border, EXCEPT planar travel and ghost's manifestation).

As per point #2, it just means that MANIFESTING ghost can benefit from the armor worn on ethereal plane normally. Like in #1 it means that the armor is "manifested" along with the ghost itself and works normally, as if it was on material plane.

As for the point #3, it means that ghost touch weapon works as normal. It negates miss chance vs incorporeal target. Still, armor works normally.

If the combat is entirely on ethereal plane (the second part of #3), then the ghost loses deflection bonus from manifesting (since it's not manifestation you fight, but the ghost itself).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Llathos 03-07-05, 01:20 PM	Ring of Blinking - DMG - 27,000gp +1 ghost touch weapon - 8000gp So, for the bargain price of 35,000gp... 1/2 AoE dmg 1/2 falling damage all opponents are denied their dex when you attack them all attacks are sneak attacks +2 to attack roll b/c you are attacking as "invisible" and of course, best of all: 50% miss chance on you unless your opponent can attack ethereal and see invisible Can it be countered? Yes. WOULD it be encountered unless a DM is meta-DMing? Probably not with the exception of the occasional cleric or mage throwing a dispel magic in the direction of the planar spaz. So, in the majority of encounters, you get all the above benefits for this ridiculously low cost. How...is this not the cheesiest thing you've ever seen?
Vatras 03-07-05, 01:31 PM	There is no such thing as meta-DMing :) We are supposed to provide challenges to the PCs no matter what they come up with, else they would get bored soon.
was_fired 03-07-05, 01:32 PM	Ghost touch does nothing to prevent the miss chance from blink. You are ethereal, not incorporal. There is no attack which may go from the ethereal plane to the material plane. Likewise ghost touch does not extend from the material plane to the ethereal plane.
dantedarkstar 03-07-05, 01:38 PM	Short version: Ghost Touch weapon does NOT negate your miss chance when you blink. Long version: Ghost touch weapon allows to ignore "miss" chance against incorporeal targets, and also allows incorporeal creatures to wield it. When blinking, you become ETHEREAL, which is different from INCORPOREAL. Ghost touch weapon doesn't help a tiny bit blinking character. While the Blink spell has some stuff about incorporeal messed up, the fact that you are ethereal supersedes the fact that you are incorporeal (as the spell description says, but it isn't true, the abilities listed for being "incorporeal" in spell description are in reality the abilities of being ethereal alone; if you would be incorporeal, not ethereal, the effects of the spell overall would be much different). The point: It doesn't work as you think it does. :D Edit: Oh yes, and simple Blind-Fight feat on opponent means you no longer get any bonuses when attacking while blinking. They get to keep Dex (no sneaks) and you don't get +2.
Llathos 03-07-05, 04:55 PM	First off, I disagree wholeheartedly. There is such a thing as meta-DMing. Your PC decides he wants to put flaming on his weapon, and suddenly all the enemies he encounters have DR against fire. It's lame, and some DMs do it. Coming up with bizarre and senseless combinations of effects in your encounters tailored to stop the PC's choice of progression is meta-DMing, and as I said, it's lame. Secondly, thanks for the clarification. It makes complete sense now, and is actually somewhat sensible in my mind. Of course, if you took 3 levels of PrC Planar Champion, then we're right back where we started ;-)
Talchar 03-07-05, 08:30 PM	Short version: When blinking, you become ETHEREAL, which is different from INCORPOREAL. Ghost touch weapon doesn't help a tiny bit blinking character. It doesn't work as you think it does. :D . Er? Ok, you lost me on the this Ethereal vs Incorporeal difference. Per the SRD "A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane. " This would mean, that Ethereal is positional reference, and Incorporeal is a condition term. As in, Jack is in the Ethereal plane looking for his dog. Oppossed to: The wizard, dodges left and targets the Incorporeal Ghost with a magic missile. (The ghost is in the Ethereal Plane, and when it interacts with a material plane creature, it has incorporeal traits. ) Next, Ghost Touch Weapons: Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder. Thus, a ring of blinking, renders the wearer Incorporeal (A condition effect of being ethereal interacting with a material creature) A ghost touch weapon suffers no miss chance when striking a blinking creature, nor does a blinking creature suffer a miss chance a miss chance when armed with a ghost touch weapon.
wonlee76 03-07-05, 08:37 PM	Er? Ok, you lost me on the this Ethereal vs Incorporeal difference. Per the SRD "A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane. " This would mean, that Ethereal is positional reference, and Incorporeal is a condition term. As in, Jack is in the Ethereal plane looking for his dog. Oppossed to: The wizard, dodges left and targets the Incorporeal Ghost with a magic missile. (The ghost is in the Ethereal Plane, and when it interacts with a material plane creature, it has incorporeal traits. ) Next, Ghost Touch Weapons: Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder. Thus, a ring of blinking, renders the wearer Incorporeal (A condition effect of being ethereal interacting with a material creature) A ghost touch weapon suffers no miss chance when striking a blinking creature, nor does a blinking creature suffer a miss chance a miss chance when armed with a ghost touch weapon. Incorporeal state is something referenced for undead creatures like shadows, ghosts, etc. These monsters don't exist on the ethereal plane. They're just incorporeal. Etherealness is in reference to a plane of existence outside of the material plane. So etherealness is similar to being incorporeal when it comes to interacting with the "real" world but they are not the same. SRD for Ghost Touch Weapon: Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder. Not a single reference to etherealness. Just reference to being incorporeal.
Llathos 03-07-05, 08:38 PM	Ok, so now there is a dissident. So, simple question: Does ghost touch mean the same as "attack ethereal" ? If the answer is yes, then we can deduce that incorporeal = ethereal. Does a ghost exist on the ethereal plane b/c it's incorporeal? If so, then I'd suggest that ghost touch can attack ethereal. The 8th level spell "Ghost Form" makes you incorporeal. Does it mention the ethereal state?
Llathos 03-07-05, 08:39 PM	Ok, I think wonlee76 cleared up the confusion. Thanks.
Vatras 03-07-05, 09:11 PM	Jack is wet. Fishes are wet. Therefore Jack must be a fish. Ethereal beings are incorporeal, but not all incorporeal things are ethereal.
D'Nabre 03-07-05, 09:20 PM	Ignoring the Incorporeal/Ethereal debate, the ghost touch weapon won't help: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder. The 50% miss chance from blinking is from you becoming incorporeal at random. When you blink out (the 50% of the time when you'd miss) what is the more beneficial state for the weapon? If it's corporeal, it will be able to hit your opponent, but you won't be able to hold it, if it's incorporeal you can keep hold of it (being incorporeal yourself) but you can't hurt a corporeal foe. I'd say keeping hold of your sword is better than dropping, but either way you'd not going to be able to attack people with it any more of the time than with a normal weapon.
smrtgmp 03-07-05, 11:37 PM	There is no such thing as meta-DMing :) We are supposed to provide challenges to the PCs no matter what they come up with, else they would get bored soon. I couldn't disagree more. My DM doesnt like my telepath (or spell casters in general), so now all of a sudden every enemy we face has levels of cleric (or something else with a good will save) so that I can't charm anything. Providing challenges is one thing. Designing encounters so that a PCs abilities are rendered nearly useless on a regular basis is another.
Talchar 03-08-05, 12:46 AM	Incorporeal state is something referenced for undead creatures like shadows, ghosts, etc. These monsters don't exist on the ethereal plane. They're just incorporeal. Etherealness is in reference to a plane of existence outside of the material plane. So etherealness is similar to being incorporeal when it comes to interacting with the "real" world but they are not the same. SRD for Ghost Touch Weapon: Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder. Not a single reference to etherealness. Just reference to being incorporeal. Looking a tad deeper into this, I can see where your get your idea from. There is some badly written material out there. In relation to your statement about no reference to etheralness.... A ghost is an ethereal creature. Long and short of it, I believe Vatras has it right. An Ethereal creature is incorporeal, but not all incorporeal cratures are etheral. As a practical matter, there is little difference except when it comes to spells that block dimensional movement. IE: A dimensional lock can keep out an ethereal creature, but not a incorpeal creature.
dantedarkstar 03-08-05, 04:12 AM	Actually being ethereal does NOT make you incorporeal. SRD, Special Abilities: ETHEREALNESS Phase spiders and certain other creatures can exist on the Ethereal Plane. While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal. Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane. Emphasis added. SRD, Special Abilities, Incorporeality Incorporeal creatures are present on the same plane as the characters, and characters have some chance to affect them. ... Incorporeal creatures are immune to critical hits, extra damage from being favored enemies, and from sneak attacks. Note that ethereal creatures in no way get immunity to critical hits by just being ethereal. Blink users also don't get any immunities of incorporeal creatures. In other words, some references to etherealness (like the one in Blink spell) are just messed. They say "incorporeal", but that is NOT the case. It's simple etherealness, that has NOTHING to do with incorporeality. About ghosts, they are ethereal, but they can have incorporeal manifestations on material plane. Again, SRD, Special Abilities, Etherealness (weird place to write about ghosts in particular, huh ?) Ghosts have a power called manifestation that allows them to appear on the Material Plane as incorporeal creatures. Still, they are on the Ethereal Plane, and another ethereal creature can interact normally with a manifesting ghost.
Talchar 03-08-05, 05:19 AM	Actually being ethereal does NOT make you incorporeal. Upon further review, your statement is correct. An Ethereal creature, is not incorporial by difinition. However, an Ethereal creature, for most cases, is functionally identifcal to incorporeal creatures. [/QUOTE] The distinction is quite fine, and even the game designers admit, that they use the terms incorporeal and ethereal interchangably. ( IMO: A example of bad editing, likely a legacy effect of prior editions still influencing current designers and most likely, a fine distinction that no one really bothered to think through) That said, if you go the "Rules of the Game" section, there is an article directly on point. Ghosts and Ghost Touch Items A manifested ghost using ghost touch equipment can do so either as a corporeal or an incorporeal user, depending on exactly where the ghost touch equipment is..." 1) Etheral (with Ghost Touch) vs Material with Ghost Touch " If a ghost on the Ethereal Plane has ghost touch equipment with it on that plane, however, then it uses ghost touch weaponry as a corporeal creature on the Material Plane does when attacking a foe on the Material Plane. (That is, the ghost has no miss chance, it makes a regular attack that must deal with the target's armor, and the ghost's Strength score applies to the attack and damage rolls.)" 2) Material vs Etheral (with etheral Ghost Touch armor) "Against most attacks, ghost touch armor worn on the Ethereal Plane protects a manifested ghost the same way it protects an incorporeal creature. The ghost retains its incorporeal miss chance and gains only the armor's enhancement bonus to its Armor Class." 3) Material (W Ghost Touch vs Etheral) Against a ghost touch weapon wielded on the Material Plane, a manifested ghost still uses its manifested Armor Class, though there is no incorporeal miss chance. (The manifested ghost's equipment remains insubstantial against foes on the Material Plane.) If a manifested ghost wears ghost touch armor, the full value of that armor applies against a ghost touch weapon, and the ghost still gets its deflection bonus for being incorporeal. If the same attacker moved to the Ethereal Plane, the ghost would lose its deflection bonus to Armor Class. Review I may be reading this article incorrectly. The writing seems a tad vague. So this is my best interpertation. A) To me, it seems clear that Etheral creature can strike a Material creature with a ghost touch weapon. No miss chance and you use the Ghost STR value. B) Material Ghost weapon vs Etheral Ghost: Ghost AC is the Ghosts manifiested AC without a miss chance. C) Material Ghost weapon vs Etheral Ghost with Ghost Armor: Ghost AC is the Ghosts manifiested Deflection AC + Standard Armor Bonus, without a miss chance. D) Etheral Ghost Touch Weapon vs Etheral Ghost: Ghost AC is per the Ghosts standard Armor AC with Deflection Bonus.
dantedarkstar 03-08-05, 07:00 AM	You are wrong on point #1 (A). The sentence from article applies to MANIFESTING ghost. Manifestation makes him appear on material plane as incorporeal creature and the sentence means that the weapon is manifested along with him and works as if it was on material plane. In other words it works. A manifested ghost using ghost touch equipment can do so either as a corporeal or an incorporeal user, depending on exactly where the ghost touch equipment is. If a manifested ghost finds a ghost touch weapon or ghost touch armor just lying on the Material Plane, it can handle and use that ghost touch equipment in exactly the same way that an incorporeal creature can. If a ghost on the Ethereal Plane has ghost touch equipment with it on that plane, however, then it uses ghost touch weaponry as a corporeal creature on the Material Plane does when attacking a foe on the Material Plane. (That is, the ghost has no miss chance, it makes a regular attack that must deal with the target's armor, and the ghost's Strength score applies to the attack and damage rolls.) All the paragraph applies to manifesting ghost, since unless he manifests he cannot affect material plane AT ALL (nothing crosses ethereal->material border, EXCEPT planar travel and ghost's manifestation). As per point #2, it just means that MANIFESTING ghost can benefit from the armor worn on ethereal plane normally. Like in #1 it means that the armor is "manifested" along with the ghost itself and works normally, as if it was on material plane. As for the point #3, it means that ghost touch weapon works as normal. It negates miss chance vs incorporeal target. Still, armor works normally. If the combat is entirely on ethereal plane (the second part of #3), then the ghost loses deflection bonus from manifesting (since it's not manifestation you fight, but the ghost itself).