Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Celas Evriamytholin 01-13-08, 10:49 AM	Dear board members, My players faced off against a vampire yesterday. He had a magical sword that could do Confusion every round. I had carefully read the descriptions of the Confusion, Magic Circle vs. Evil and Protection from Evil spells, and the wording made it sound like although the vampire couldn't dominate them with his Dominate Person ability when they were in the circle, and couldn't physically harm them via melee attacks unless he made the save, Confusion would still penetrate the protection spell. Thoughts? =) Confusion Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Trickery 4 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Targets: All creatures in a 15-ft. radius burst Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell causes the targets to become confused, making them unable to independently determine what they will do. Roll on the following table at the beginning of each subject’s turn each round to see what the subject does in that round. d% Behavior 01-10 Attack caster with melee or ranged weapons (or close with caster if attack is not possible). 11-20 Act normally. 21-50 Do nothing but babble incoherently. 51-70 Flee away from caster at top possible speed. 71-100 Attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject’s self). A confused character who can’t carry out the indicated action does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking a confused character. Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. Note that a confused character will not make attacks of opportunity against any creature that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked). Magic Circle vs Evil Abjuration [Good] Level: Clr 3, Good 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: No; see text All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and no nongood summoned creatures can enter the area either. You must overcome a creature’s spell resistance in order to keep it at bay (as in the third function of protection from evil), but the deflection and resistance bonuses and the protection from mental control apply regardless of enemies’ spell resistance. This spell has an alternative version that you may choose when casting it. A magic circle against evil can be focused inward rather than outward. When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature (such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle. The creature cannot cross the circle’s boundaries. If a creature too large to fit into the spell’s area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only. A magic circle leaves much to be desired as a trap. If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. The trapped creature can do nothing that disturbs the circle, directly or indirectly, but other creatures can. If the called creature has spell resistance, it can test the trap once a day. If you fail to overcome its spell resistance, the creature breaks free, destroying the circle. A creature capable of any form of dimensional travel (astral projection, blink, dimension door, etherealness, gate, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar abilities) can simply leave the circle through that means. You can prevent the creature’s extradimensional escape by casting a dimensional anchor spell on it, but you must cast the spell before the creature acts. If you are successful, the anchor effect lasts as long as the magic circle does. The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself. You can add a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. You do not know the result of this check. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes. If time is no factor at all, and you devote 3 hours and 20 minutes to the task, you can take 20. A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above. This spell is not cumulative with protection from evil and vice versa. Protection from Evil Abjuration [Good] Level: Clr 1, Good 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: No; see text This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject and has three major effects. First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures. Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment. Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature. Dominate Person Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid Duration: One day/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind. If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically. Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description). Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action. By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still can’t communicate with you. You can’t actually see through the subject’s eyes, so it’s not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of what’s going on. Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it. If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination. Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it. Another question: If John and Jack are allies, and Jack casts Magic Circle vs Evil on himself and John was in the radius when it was cast, John is obviously protected. However, if John leaves the radius and comes back in, is he still protected in the same way? Thanks :)
CantripN 01-13-08, 04:48 PM	Confusion isn't an "ongoing control". Heck, it's the opposite of any sort of control, so it works just fine, as do things like Suggestion. The Dominate is still a good idea, too, because it would take effect immediately after the circle runs out. As for the Magic Circle, it's the circle itself that stops attacks, so whatever is inside is safe, no matter how it got there. Also, seeing as the Vampire isn't "Summoned", it can attack them just fine. All that will bother it is the +2 AC from the spell.
PhaedrusXY 01-13-08, 05:38 PM	Confusion isn't an "ongoing control". Heck, it's the opposite of any sort of control, so it works just fine, as do things like Suggestion. I disagree. Suggestion doesn't grant "ongoing control" because it has an instantaneous duration. Confusion makes you behave in a different way than you normally would. So it controls your behavior. And it has a duration other than instantaneous, so it is ongoing. The fact that it makes you be have somewhat randomly doesn't change the fact that it makes you behave differently.
Vegepygmy 01-13-08, 06:40 PM	Thoughts?According to the 3.0 FAQ, protection from evil does not block confusion. According to the 3.5 FAQ, it does. Personally, I think the 3.0 FAQ has it right, and the 3.5 FAQ is full of :censored:. Another question: If John and Jack are allies, and Jack casts Magic Circle vs Evil on himself and John was in the radius when it was cast, John is obviously protected. However, if John leaves the radius and comes back in, is he still protected in the same way?Yes. It doesn't matter when or how John comes to be within the spell's area.
Celas Evriamytholin 01-13-08, 07:04 PM	Thank you for the colorful responses, and I will abide by the FAQ. It makes more sense to me that confusion WOULDN'T work through the protection, but again, the vague meaning of what is and is not ongoing control left me in the dark. Thanks again! :)
mtbOgre 01-13-08, 07:48 PM	Dear board members, My players faced off against a vampire yesterday. He had a magical sword that could do Confusion every round. I would stick with the FAQ with regards to the spell (as you said you are) and as someone said anyone in the circle is protected regardless of when the enter or if the leave then return. Thats all been said though. Sounds very similar to Lucan in "The Vampire's Blade". Oh did my party learn to hate that man. I can't even bring out the miniature I used for him without getting groans at the table. It's been suggested that I retire or repaint the mini.
Celas Evriamytholin 01-13-08, 10:39 PM	Sounds very similar to Lucan in "The Vampire's Blade". Oh did my party learn to hate that man. I can't even bring out the miniature I used for him without getting groans at the table. It's been suggested that I retire or repaint the mini. It is indeed the infamous Lucan. Whisper's of the Vampire's Blade: The best adventure I've ever played, and one of the best I've DMed :). Definitely a must.
ArcTan 01-13-08, 11:39 PM	Confusion makes you behave in a different way than you normally would. So it controls your behavior. And it has a duration other than instantaneous, so it is ongoing. The fact that it makes you be have somewhat randomly doesn't change the fact that it makes you behave differently. *sigh* "Ongoing control" does not mean "Any Mind-Affecting spell (and perhaps other spells besides that) that have a duration". That's stupid. That makes PfE stupidly powerful. Confusion *changes* the subject's behavior. It does not give you *control* over their behavior -- control implies the ability, from moment-to-moment, to give new commands and have them be obeyed. Shooting a torpedo into a boat and making it sink changes the boat's course. It does not, in any way, count as me having "control" over the boat.
mtbOgre 01-14-08, 12:10 AM	It is indeed the infamous Lucan. Whisper's of the Vampire's Blade: The best adventure I've ever played, and one of the best I've DMed :). Definitely a must. Well I liked it... Party was pretty passionate about their dislike. Killed one character and probably should have TPKed but I didn't have the heart. Wound up taking it easy on them in the final battle because they didn't do a very good job preparing for it in spite of tons of prep time and multiple practice runs.
Vegepygmy 01-14-08, 01:38 AM	Shooting a torpedo into a boat and making it sink changes the boat's course. It does not, in any way, count as me having "control" over the boat.Hehe. Well said.
TheCobra 01-14-08, 03:47 PM	I didn't even know about the goofy 3.5 FAQ ruling until recently. I'm going to continue to play by the old one. Enchanters have enough to worry about as it is.
elonin 01-19-08, 07:18 PM	I"m curious about the reasoning in the 3.5 faq. If the confusion were cast by the vampire the circle of protection vs. evil would work due to the vampire being evil. Since it's cast by the sword it would depend on the swords alignment, so if it were intelligent or had the ability to cast spells with the evil descriptor then the circle would work. Also, the question came up about someone being dominated and entering the circle. The protection vs. evil doesn't negate mental control it just suppresses it for the duration of the spell.
Merestil Haye 01-19-08, 07:42 PM	I"m curious about the reasoning in the 3.5 faq. If the confusion were cast by the vampire the circle of protection vs. evil would work due to the vampire being evil. Since it's cast by the sword it would depend on the swords alignment, so if it were intelligent or had the ability to cast spells with the evil descriptor then the circle would work.That is in fact not correct. The protection against mind control effects does not care one whit whether the controller is evil. It suppresses all/I] mind control, whatever the alignment of the caster. Thus it doesn't matter whether the vampire or the blade cast the Confusion. The issue is whether [I]Confusion grants "ongoing control" over the subject. It should be intuitively obvious that the answer is no, because the Confusion's caster has no control over the subject whatsoever. The 3.0 FAQ strongly suggests that this is the case - it does not reference Confusion as a spell excluded from the suppression, but it does reference Insanity, which is basically Confusion with a permanent duration.
ArcTan 01-19-08, 09:34 PM	I"m curious about the reasoning in the 3.5 faq. If the confusion were cast by the vampire the circle of protection vs. evil would work due to the vampire being evil. Since it's cast by the sword it would depend on the swords alignment, so if it were intelligent or had the ability to cast spells with the evil descriptor then the circle would work. PfE and MCoE (and the similar spells for different alignments) explicitly don't care about alignment at all for the portion of their abilities that has to do with blocking mental control. Also, the question came up about someone being dominated and entering the circle. The protection vs. evil doesn't negate mental control it just suppresses it for the duration of the spell. Sure. It's still long enough for the person to go "Quick! Cast dispel magic on me!"
elonin 01-19-08, 09:43 PM	That's possible. For some reason I mis remebered dominate as having the evil descriptor. I'm guessing that the confusion would be suppressed while protect vs evil were in effect.
mvincent 01-21-08, 05:46 PM	Thank you for the colorful responses, and I will abide by the FAQ.Did you mean the 3.0 FAQ? (i.e. both your options abide by one of the FAQ's) For reference, the 3.0 FAQ says: '“It also includes some Enchantment spells of the Compulsion subschool if those spells grant the caster ongoing control over the subject; such spells include dominate person and dominate monster. Compulsions that merely dictate the subject’s action at the time the spell takes effect are not blocked. Such spells include command, hold person, geas/quest, hypnotism, insanity, Otto’s irresistible dance, random action, suggestion, and zone of truth.' While the 3.5 FAQ says: "Enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject. This is where adjudication gets trickier, because you have to decide what “ongoing control” means. The Sage recommends a broad definition, which includes any non-instantaneous effect that prevents the target from exercising full control over its own actions. Examples would include the obvious (such as command or dominate person), but also the less obvious, such as daze, sleep, and Tasha’s hideous laughter. Such effects would be suppressed for as long as protection from evil lasts on the target. There are still plenty of enchantment (compulsion) effects that don’t grant the caster ongoing control over the subject. Heroism, crushing despair, mind fog, power word blind, rage, and touch of idiocy are examples. Protection from evil has no effect on such spells." I personally use the 3.0 version.
Celas Evriamytholin 01-21-08, 08:39 PM	Version 3.5 probably.
Roelandt 01-21-08, 09:00 PM	The above 3.5 FAQ does not discuss confusion. ...any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). " Confusion spell does not grant mental control (the target is beyond his control and may even attack the caster), and ProE prevents mental control specifically, so NO...ProE would not supress confusion, AND the 3.5 FAQ is mostly correct, addressing only compulsion spells and effects that confur mental control, though the guy that wrote it is in error regarding sleep and Tasha's as these are not "ongoing mental control." PRINT: does not mean FACT. Storme
Celas Evriamytholin 01-21-08, 11:24 PM	So... according to the 3.5 FAQ, the magic circle would not prevent it?
ArcTan 01-22-08, 03:28 AM	The 3.5 FAQ isn't clear at all in its meaning (there is no real, reasonable way to apply its criteria without being highly arbitrary) and I would recommend you simply ignore it. In trying to *guess* what kind of standard Andy Collins had in mind when he was discussing "control", he seems to think that any spell that takes away your action or dictates what your action will be in a round counts as "control", which is totally BS -- but yes, if Tasha's hideous laughter counts as "control", then confusion would too. (Despite the fact that Tasha's hideous laughter makes them laugh hysterically and *not do anything at all*, and confusion makes their actions totally unpredictable -- again with the argument that by shooting a torpedo into a boat I'm "taking control" of the boat or by sitting on the TV remote I'm "controlling" the TV.)
nameneeded 01-22-08, 03:52 AM	Well Considering Proc Evil says its protects from Enchanment Compulsion effects that grant the caster control(3rd paragraph second and 3rd line) and the Compulsion is an Echantment (Compulsion) that has a random effect and does not give any controll to the caster I would have to go with a big fat Yes it does work. IMO
ravenshrike 01-23-08, 08:11 PM	Outside of spells that grant ongoing control, there are only 2 spells that actually grant the caster control that are enchantment(charm/compulsion). These are Command and Suggestion. That's it. Those are the only other spells, at least in core, that actually grant the caster control over another's actions. They are the only other spells covered by PfE. The other spells do not grant the caster any sort of control at all, they merely cause a specific or, in the case of confusion, specific series of effects to occur. ArcTan of course disagrees with this method, but they could have removed the bolded part "or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)." completely if that was their intention and just noted that it blocked ongoing charm and compulsion effects that granted the caster control. Moreover, in no other core spell does the usage of the word including mean strictly what comes after in the sentence. It very clearly is used as in addendum in every other instance throughout the PHB/SRD when dealing with spells(I haven't gone through all the other sections, you can if you want). However, the only other spells in core which grant the caster control, and not the spell, are suggestion and command. So those are the only other ones the spell protects against. The reason the spell specifically mentions ongoing effects is because PfE does not in fact keep those spells from being cast, but it guards against their effect until the circle expires/the player walks out of it.