can divine casters have "hanging" spell slots? [Archive] - Wizards Community

can divine casters have "hanging" spell slots? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sheareinke
07-24-04, 05:09 AM Myself and two of my GM buddies were having a discussion regarding rule varients of the cleric spellcasting ability, particularly in regards to the difference between clerics(or druids) and mages. This, of course, leads to the old "lets review exactly how it works in the books" statment. When reviewing the spell selection and preparation subheading of the divine spellcasting section we found a strange line that sparked several hours of heated debate.
The line in particular says that; "A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all of his spells at once."
Now it goes on to say that "However, the character's mind is only considered fresh during his first daily spell preparation, so he cannot fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell."
And! My question is : does that mean that a cleric(or any divine caster) can pray at their proper time, prepare some spells into slots, and also save some slots to be prepared later that day before thier next proper spell preparation time? The other way to read it would be to say that those spell slots not prepared are "abandoned"...right? (there was about an hour of debate regarding whether or not that line can be applied to spell slots that were "never prepared in the first place")
Basically can a divine caster pray at their time and leave some spell slots unprepared so that they may take 15+ minutes to the side later that day to prepare a spell into a "hanging" spell slot?
Further, does "(a cleric or druid) can spontaneously cast a (cure, inflict, or nature's ally) spell in place of a prepared spell ..." mean that these theoretical hanging slots are not available for spontaneous casting as there is no prepared spell in the slot?

The One True Shea

ps. me and my fellow GMs (GAME Master for those not fam w/that abbrv. varient) are hard-core house rulers specifically to avoid these kind of arguments in games, particularly sense we have so much fun with them :rolleyes:
Bifford
07-24-04, 05:27 AM Side note: The "abandoned" bit means you had a spell prepared in that slot, but you deliberately chose to forget it without using it; regardless, that slot was "used" and you must rest before it "recharges".

Clerics typically pray at fixed times during the day, but I think this is more of a religious custom than a practical issue. After all, if the god has clerics in all time zones, then He'll be answering prayers 'round-the-clock ;). This could allow for a cleric to pray at unorthodox times to use up "hanging" slots.

I don't know what ramifications this will have in game balancing terms. If clerics are restricted to praying only every 24 hours, then there's no point in leaving "hanging" slots and wizards like to do. This is a signficant handicap, and I wonder if it isn't deliberate (clerics don't need spellbooks, after all).

A cleric cannot spontaneously cast from an unprepared slot.
Tsuul
07-24-04, 05:43 AM Seems as though those lines about filling in unprepaired divine spell slots were done for a reason.
From FAQ:
How many times in a day can a priest have his or her
spells replenished? I have a player who cites the Player’s
Handbook as saying that the priest need meditate for only 1
hour to regain his spells. Please shed some light on this if
you can.
A cleric (or other divine spellcaster) regains spells once a
day. This requires 1 hour of meditation at the correct time of
day (which can vary depending of the character and his deity).
See Preparing Divine Spells in Chapter 10 of the Player’s
Handbook.

Safe to assume that the rest is up to snuff as well. So you can choose not to prepare all of your spells, it's just a waste of spell slots for the day. But you are guaranteed that they[the spell slots] will be available for use on the next day.
Tsuul
07-24-04, 05:45 AM Oh, and you can choose not to forget spells, so the "at once" would kick-in in that case. In other words, I prepare half my spells today, and the other half tomorrow.
Nom
07-24-04, 08:58 AM Originally posted by sheareinke
The line in particular says that; "A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all of his spells at once."
Now it goes on to say that "However, the character's mind is only considered fresh during his first daily spell preparation, so he cannot fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell."Yup. You can only fill a slot that was available but unfilled after preparation, same as a Wizard.

And! My question is : does that mean that a cleric(or any divine caster) can pray at their proper time, prepare some spells into slots, and also save some slots to be prepared later that day before thier next proper spell preparation time?Yes, exactly the same as a Wizard. Remember, "Divine casters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences." Since the rules explicitly say that they don't have to prepare them all at once (like Wizards) and don't say that they can't fill slots that were available but vacant after preparation (like Wizards) then they can do as wizards do and fill them later, requiring at least 15 minutes.

The other way to read it would be to say that those spell slots not prepared are "abandoned"...right? (there was about an hour of debate regarding whether or not that line can be applied to spell slots that were "never prepared in the first place")No, you can't read it that way because it doesn't say that. It says you don't have to prepare them all at once, but you can only later fill slots that were never used, not slots that were used and have become vacant (casting or being abandoned).

Basically can a divine caster pray at their time and leave some spell slots unprepared so that they may take 15+ minutes to the side later that day to prepare a spell into a "hanging" spell slot?Yes, exactly like Wizards. Except they don't need a spell book.

Further, does "(a cleric or druid) can spontaneously cast a (cure, inflict, or nature's ally) spell in place of a prepared spell ..." mean that these theoretical hanging slots are not available for spontaneous casting as there is no prepared spell in the slot?No, because you cast a spontaneous spell "in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher". If the slot is vacant and unused then you can't cast from it because there is no spell to substitute. You could prepare a spell and then spontaneously subsitute it for a cure spell, but in that case why not just prepare the cure spell directly into the vacant slot.

The easiest way to think of it is that at some point in time each day a spell caster must clean out all their spell slots to make room for new stuff. When you prepare a spell it leaves dirty stuff in the slot and you can't use it again until you clean it out. Moreover, you can't clean out a slot for at least 8 hours after you last used it (maybe it's still too hot?). During preparation, you spend an hour (or 15 minutes for sorcs and bards) cleaning out all your spell slots. If you wish, you can fill the slots with new spells at this time, or you can leave them unfilled and fill them later (taking more time to do so). However, once you've dirtied up a slot by putting a spell in it you can't use it again until you clean it again next preparation time.

You always have the option of not cleaning out a slot occupied by an uncast spell, or even not cleaning out anything at all, but you can't reuse a slot unless you clean it out, and you can't clean it within 8 hours of casting a spell from it. If that means a slot is unvailable this preparation time, then too bad; wait until tomorrow.

The main differences between the various caster types:

* Arcane casters require a period of rest before they can prepare. Divine casters prepare at a particular time each day.

* An arcane caster who is late for his usual preparation time can do it later, subject to being able to rest. A divine caster must do it as close as possible to the time or miss out.

Note: the assumption is that arcane casters still only get their spells once per day. Sleep 8, prepare 1, cast, sleep 8, ... is NOT once per day, even if you could convince your body to oversleep that badly. It's "daily preparation" of "daily spells".

* Wizards and divine casters require 1 hour of preparation time, and take at least 15 minutes if filling unused slots later. Sorcerers and bards require 15 minutes preparation time.

* Sorcerers and bards prepare their spells on the fly. During preparation, all their slots become unused (exception: 8 hour restriction), and may be filled as required during the day.

* Sorcerers and bards spontaneously prepare and cast spells from unused slots. Clerics and druids spontaneously convert prepared spells into different spells. Other divine casters and wizards can do neither, nor can clerics spontaneously convert domain spells.

* To prepare spells, wizards require spellbooks. Divine casters get to choose from whatever their deity provides (usually the whole list). Sorcerers and bards have a list of know spells and prepare from this list on the fly.

* Clerics and specialist wizards get bonus slots that have restrictions on what spells may be placed into them and cast from them. Otherwise these function as normal slots.

All the above are on PH 3.5, pg 177-180.
Edymnion
07-24-04, 01:15 PM A wizard can choose not to study a spell to leave that slot open. Later on, he can memorize a spell later in 15 minutes of study.

I see no reason why a cleric can't do the same thing. Leave a slot un-prayed-for, then later on spend 15 minutes praying and fill it with whatever he needs.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, IMO.
Tsuul
07-24-04, 03:42 PM After some good sleep:
Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does.
Let's refer to how wizards prepare spells.
Spell Preparation Time: After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.

The only difference in preparation is how the two recieve 'fresh' minds and lack of spellbook. Which are spelled out in each of the sections.
sheareinke
08-04-04, 10:51 PM Hey great comments. I think I have it pretty clear now.
Funny thing is ...
Its really a moot point in regards to the games I run most times. I have my own setting wherin I allow clerics to spontaniously cast pretty much all the time. The deal is that their spells known are'nt consistently the ones in the PHB. I have a very solid idea of what a cleric's god can/wants to let their clerics get away with at any given time. In other words, cast what you will when you will but dont waste your miracles or your god will stop wasting them on you. I also revoke the characters top level spell access as a warning before having them compleatly fall from grace.
The thing about this method is that I actually get characters beseaching thier gods for miracles. Instead of taking powers as granted automatically. I think the best part is when, near the end of some of the more questionable requests, you get stuff like : "and I'll never do xxx again" , "I promise I'll get on that quest you told me about" , "You gotta want this one dead, dont you?" , or simply "please!"
To anyone who thinks this overpowers clerics in respect to wizards should understand that this method was devised after I decided that clerics were overpowered in compared to wizards as per basic rules. That there was no real solid excuse for what was on the clerical spell list and not on the wizards. So the footnote of this system is that all spell in the phb are available to wizards and sorcerers(druids are exceptions). the thing that differentiates clerics from the others is that they dont have a list of spells(other than domains -gotta have some stability). They pray and get something for their spell slot expenditure. I decide based off their request what they get from their god. They have miracles, not formulae that they prepare. If they ask for something I think their god wants them to do then it works well. If it is something their god doesnt want them to do then it will work poorly, it might take longer, or mishap is some way. Only in extreem cases (water cleric summoning fire elementals to kill water elementals because they have too many HD to turn) do spells fail altogether.

the one true shea

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sheareinke 07-24-04, 05:09 AM	Myself and two of my GM buddies were having a discussion regarding rule varients of the cleric spellcasting ability, particularly in regards to the difference between clerics(or druids) and mages. This, of course, leads to the old "lets review exactly how it works in the books" statment. When reviewing the spell selection and preparation subheading of the divine spellcasting section we found a strange line that sparked several hours of heated debate. The line in particular says that; "A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all of his spells at once." Now it goes on to say that "However, the character's mind is only considered fresh during his first daily spell preparation, so he cannot fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell." And! My question is : does that mean that a cleric(or any divine caster) can pray at their proper time, prepare some spells into slots, and also save some slots to be prepared later that day before thier next proper spell preparation time? The other way to read it would be to say that those spell slots not prepared are "abandoned"...right? (there was about an hour of debate regarding whether or not that line can be applied to spell slots that were "never prepared in the first place") Basically can a divine caster pray at their time and leave some spell slots unprepared so that they may take 15+ minutes to the side later that day to prepare a spell into a "hanging" spell slot? Further, does "(a cleric or druid) can spontaneously cast a (cure, inflict, or nature's ally) spell in place of a prepared spell ..." mean that these theoretical hanging slots are not available for spontaneous casting as there is no prepared spell in the slot? The One True Shea ps. me and my fellow GMs (GAME Master for those not fam w/that abbrv. varient) are hard-core house rulers specifically to avoid these kind of arguments in games, particularly sense we have so much fun with them :rolleyes:
Bifford 07-24-04, 05:27 AM	Side note: The "abandoned" bit means you had a spell prepared in that slot, but you deliberately chose to forget it without using it; regardless, that slot was "used" and you must rest before it "recharges". Clerics typically pray at fixed times during the day, but I think this is more of a religious custom than a practical issue. After all, if the god has clerics in all time zones, then He'll be answering prayers 'round-the-clock ;). This could allow for a cleric to pray at unorthodox times to use up "hanging" slots. I don't know what ramifications this will have in game balancing terms. If clerics are restricted to praying only every 24 hours, then there's no point in leaving "hanging" slots and wizards like to do. This is a signficant handicap, and I wonder if it isn't deliberate (clerics don't need spellbooks, after all). A cleric cannot spontaneously cast from an unprepared slot.
Tsuul 07-24-04, 05:43 AM	Seems as though those lines about filling in unprepaired divine spell slots were done for a reason. From FAQ: How many times in a day can a priest have his or her spells replenished? I have a player who cites the Player’s Handbook as saying that the priest need meditate for only 1 hour to regain his spells. Please shed some light on this if you can. A cleric (or other divine spellcaster) regains spells once a day. This requires 1 hour of meditation at the correct time of day (which can vary depending of the character and his deity). See Preparing Divine Spells in Chapter 10 of the Player’s Handbook. Safe to assume that the rest is up to snuff as well. So you can choose not to prepare all of your spells, it's just a waste of spell slots for the day. But you are guaranteed that they[the spell slots] will be available for use on the next day.
Tsuul 07-24-04, 05:45 AM	Oh, and you can choose not to forget spells, so the "at once" would kick-in in that case. In other words, I prepare half my spells today, and the other half tomorrow.
Nom 07-24-04, 08:58 AM	Originally posted by sheareinke The line in particular says that; "A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all of his spells at once." Now it goes on to say that "However, the character's mind is only considered fresh during his first daily spell preparation, so he cannot fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell."Yup. You can only fill a slot that was available but unfilled after preparation, same as a Wizard. And! My question is : does that mean that a cleric(or any divine caster) can pray at their proper time, prepare some spells into slots, and also save some slots to be prepared later that day before thier next proper spell preparation time?Yes, exactly the same as a Wizard. Remember, "Divine casters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences." Since the rules explicitly say that they don't have to prepare them all at once (like Wizards) and don't say that they can't fill slots that were available but vacant after preparation (like Wizards) then they can do as wizards do and fill them later, requiring at least 15 minutes. The other way to read it would be to say that those spell slots not prepared are "abandoned"...right? (there was about an hour of debate regarding whether or not that line can be applied to spell slots that were "never prepared in the first place")No, you can't read it that way because it doesn't say that. It says you don't have to prepare them all at once, but you can only later fill slots that were never used, not slots that were used and have become vacant (casting or being abandoned). Basically can a divine caster pray at their time and leave some spell slots unprepared so that they may take 15+ minutes to the side later that day to prepare a spell into a "hanging" spell slot?Yes, exactly like Wizards. Except they don't need a spell book. Further, does "(a cleric or druid) can spontaneously cast a (cure, inflict, or nature's ally) spell in place of a prepared spell ..." mean that these theoretical hanging slots are not available for spontaneous casting as there is no prepared spell in the slot?No, because you cast a spontaneous spell "in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher". If the slot is vacant and unused then you can't cast from it because there is no spell to substitute. You could prepare a spell and then spontaneously subsitute it for a cure spell, but in that case why not just prepare the cure spell directly into the vacant slot. The easiest way to think of it is that at some point in time each day a spell caster must clean out all their spell slots to make room for new stuff. When you prepare a spell it leaves dirty stuff in the slot and you can't use it again until you clean it out. Moreover, you can't clean out a slot for at least 8 hours after you last used it (maybe it's still too hot?). During preparation, you spend an hour (or 15 minutes for sorcs and bards) cleaning out all your spell slots. If you wish, you can fill the slots with new spells at this time, or you can leave them unfilled and fill them later (taking more time to do so). However, once you've dirtied up a slot by putting a spell in it you can't use it again until you clean it again next preparation time. You always have the option of not cleaning out a slot occupied by an uncast spell, or even not cleaning out anything at all, but you can't reuse a slot unless you clean it out, and you can't clean it within 8 hours of casting a spell from it. If that means a slot is unvailable this preparation time, then too bad; wait until tomorrow. The main differences between the various caster types: * Arcane casters require a period of rest before they can prepare. Divine casters prepare at a particular time each day. * An arcane caster who is late for his usual preparation time can do it later, subject to being able to rest. A divine caster must do it as close as possible to the time or miss out. Note: the assumption is that arcane casters still only get their spells once per day. Sleep 8, prepare 1, cast, sleep 8, ... is NOT once per day, even if you could convince your body to oversleep that badly. It's "daily preparation" of "daily spells". * Wizards and divine casters require 1 hour of preparation time, and take at least 15 minutes if filling unused slots later. Sorcerers and bards require 15 minutes preparation time. * Sorcerers and bards prepare their spells on the fly. During preparation, all their slots become unused (exception: 8 hour restriction), and may be filled as required during the day. * Sorcerers and bards spontaneously prepare and cast spells from unused slots. Clerics and druids spontaneously convert prepared spells into different spells. Other divine casters and wizards can do neither, nor can clerics spontaneously convert domain spells. * To prepare spells, wizards require spellbooks. Divine casters get to choose from whatever their deity provides (usually the whole list). Sorcerers and bards have a list of know spells and prepare from this list on the fly. * Clerics and specialist wizards get bonus slots that have restrictions on what spells may be placed into them and cast from them. Otherwise these function as normal slots. All the above are on PH 3.5, pg 177-180.
Edymnion 07-24-04, 01:15 PM	A wizard can choose not to study a spell to leave that slot open. Later on, he can memorize a spell later in 15 minutes of study. I see no reason why a cleric can't do the same thing. Leave a slot un-prayed-for, then later on spend 15 minutes praying and fill it with whatever he needs. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, IMO.
Tsuul 07-24-04, 03:42 PM	After some good sleep: Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. Let's refer to how wizards prepare spells. Spell Preparation Time: After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state. The only difference in preparation is how the two recieve 'fresh' minds and lack of spellbook. Which are spelled out in each of the sections.
sheareinke 08-04-04, 10:51 PM	Hey great comments. I think I have it pretty clear now. Funny thing is ... Its really a moot point in regards to the games I run most times. I have my own setting wherin I allow clerics to spontaniously cast pretty much all the time. The deal is that their spells known are'nt consistently the ones in the PHB. I have a very solid idea of what a cleric's god can/wants to let their clerics get away with at any given time. In other words, cast what you will when you will but dont waste your miracles or your god will stop wasting them on you. I also revoke the characters top level spell access as a warning before having them compleatly fall from grace. The thing about this method is that I actually get characters beseaching thier gods for miracles. Instead of taking powers as granted automatically. I think the best part is when, near the end of some of the more questionable requests, you get stuff like : "and I'll never do xxx again" , "I promise I'll get on that quest you told me about" , "You gotta want this one dead, dont you?" , or simply "please!" To anyone who thinks this overpowers clerics in respect to wizards should understand that this method was devised after I decided that clerics were overpowered in compared to wizards as per basic rules. That there was no real solid excuse for what was on the clerical spell list and not on the wizards. So the footnote of this system is that all spell in the phb are available to wizards and sorcerers(druids are exceptions). the thing that differentiates clerics from the others is that they dont have a list of spells(other than domains -gotta have some stability). They pray and get something for their spell slot expenditure. I decide based off their request what they get from their god. They have miracles, not formulae that they prepare. If they ask for something I think their god wants them to do then it works well. If it is something their god doesnt want them to do then it will work poorly, it might take longer, or mishap is some way. Only in extreem cases (water cleric summoning fire elementals to kill water elementals because they have too many HD to turn) do spells fail altogether. the one true shea