Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rutibex 07-20-05, 01:08 AM	It seems like the spell would allow for such a use, but the experiance cost is much less than Wish (and you get three out of the deal). Of course you would have to compensate the Genie, but they get three wishes to grant every day, it's not a huge deal for them. Thoughts?
Sildatorak 07-20-05, 02:05 AM	This is based on both game balance and flavor from previous editions: Genies are accountable to their superiors for any wishes they grant. Since efreeti are the only non-noble genies who grant wishes, they will seek to please those higher above them (who are even more strongly lawful evil than John Q. Efreeti) by granting the literal wording of the wish while twisting the intent. I would right more along these lines, but I'll leave that up to you to fill in specifics for your campaign. Plus, my pictures are on[/old] :D
Seeker95 07-20-05, 10:05 AM	Can Gate be used to get Wishes out of Genies?Not in my campaign. At least not without a lot of diplomacy.
tarkin 07-20-05, 11:56 AM	The Sage made the following rulings: 1) A Wish is clearly a longer and more invovled form of service, even if you accomplish it in under the time limit. 2) Creatures that have the innate ability to grant a wish or similar effects DO have to pay the xp costs associated with it. As DM's don't bother keeping track of XP for monsters usually, the assumption is that they always have enough XP to cast their limit for the day. ------------- As a DM, I would let people attempt to get a genie or similar creature to do a wish. But always remember: The genie words the Wish. So this means if you don't make the genie HAPPY about spending his XP (by offering enough contractual payment), then guess what, he words the wish in the WORST possible way, and then the DM gets to screw with it ON TOP of the Genie. I.E. Only a total and COMPLETE idiot uses Gate to get a Wish that he has not earned/bought fair and square.
IMarvinTPA 07-20-05, 12:27 PM	After you gate the Genie in, you ask him who has previously ****** him off and use your first wish against that being. Then you wish for what you want. IMarv
Rutibex 07-20-05, 05:36 PM	After you gate the Genie in, you ask him who has previously ****** him off and use your first wish against that being. Then you wish for what you want. IMarv Hehe, I like the way you think :D . Thanks for the advice everyone!
The Simbul 07-20-05, 09:39 PM	There is nothing to stop the Sultan of the Efreeti or a Genie Lord from using Gate to summon the Wizard, and force him to grant them Wishes, this time forcing the Wizard to actually lose XP. Gate can call any extraplanar creature. Extraplanar is a subjective and conditional subtype that is applied to any creature whose home plane is one other than your own. Conjuration (Summoning) spells have the caveat that states that summoned creatures will refuse to use any spell that has an XP cost, or any spell-like ability that would otherwise incur an XP cost. While Conjuration (Calling) spells (which is the subschool for Gate, Planar Binding, etc) do not duplicate this text in their subschool description, I think it is well within the spirit of the intent for that restriction to be applied universally, especially in light of the Wish issue.
Vaelan 07-21-05, 03:48 AM	Conjuration (Summoning) spells have the caveat that states that summoned creatures will refuse to use any spell that has an XP cost, or any spell-like ability that would otherwise incur an XP cost. While Conjuration (Calling) spells (which is the subschool for Gate, Planar Binding, etc) do not duplicate this text in their subschool description, I think it is well within the spirit of the intent for that restriction to be applied universally, especially in light of the Wish issue. I think such a houserule would be arbitrary and illogical. It is also not within the spirit of the rules, as I will show below. Let us say that I call a genie using the Gate spell. I give said genie the following choice: Grant me a Wish without any payment or I will kill you. Please note the difference between Called and Summoned monsters. A Called monster actually dies when they are killed. A summoned monster does not die when it is killed, it simply reforms on its home plane. The genie has exactly two choices. It can either grant me the wish and exact revenge at a later date or it can die. Assuming that genies are rational beings and able to understand what death means, an assumption that is supported by their mental scores listed in the Monster Manual, the only worthwhile choice as far as they're concerned would be to grant me the Wish and either twist it sufficiently to make me suffer or make me so very sorry for forcing them to do so at some later date. However, according to your supposed house-rule, the genie would rather die (specifically, the genie would refuse to grant a Wish). Not only is this completely illogical, but it also contradicts the Monster Manual entry on genies, which states that. "If trapped, they bargain, offering treasure or favors in return for their lives and freedom." A Wish could certainly be a favor, and I know I would rather lose 5000 XP than die.
Malakant 07-21-05, 01:38 PM	You can not controll a specific being that you call via gate, so you the wizard would not be forced to cast wish if he were called via gate.
Starmage21 07-21-05, 01:47 PM	also, spell-like abilities do not have XP or Costly Material Components, even if they have them as spells. A genie grants its 3 Wishes/day without spending any XP.
Alvaric 07-21-05, 07:19 PM	There is nothing to stop the Sultan of the Efreeti or a Genie Lord from using Gate to summon the Wizard, and force him to grant them Wishes, this time forcing the Wizard to actually lose XP. Gate can call any extraplanar creature. Extraplanar is a subjective and conditional subtype that is applied to any creature whose home plane is one other than your own. That's ... hilarious ... laughing so hard ... can't breathe ... can't wait ... to use ... on players ...
Lord shadow35 07-23-05, 07:50 PM	All that it would take would be to gate Djinni in politelty ask him for the 3 wish. threre should be no problem with that. But some poeple whine about balence in a game. According to the wording you could ask and receive what you want. The wording from the 3.5MM and the 3.5 PHB. no errata, no crap rules. However you could do better via planar binding spells and spend no xp at all.
Vatras 07-23-05, 08:00 PM	If you read the PHB, it says clearly that summoned creatures cannot use any ability which would normally cost XP. And as the Simbul said above, I dont hesitate to deny all summoned/called/conjured beings the use of such powers. In my game you wouldnt have a chance to use this age-old munchkin trick of producing multiple wishes, which was once known as the "efreeti press" in 1st Edition. You can call it "whining about game balance", but there is a solid reason why wish has the XP entry, and why nobody should get away without paying it. If you think it through to its logical conclusions, it would ruin any game world...
Lord shadow35 07-23-05, 08:08 PM	ok smart guy Summon creatures suck im talking about a real physcical creature. And how game mechanic's work. you are taking about house rules. and keeping the game fair. i am talking about rules. If you have a creature that has an at will ability it does not lose xp for using them any of them!
Lord shadow35 07-23-05, 08:19 PM	Look it's in the srd they don't pay the xp! Spell-Like: Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components). They go away in an antimagic field and are subject to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates would be subject to spell resistance. Plane english i though some of you would know this (The simbul, Tarkin) you guy's masters at the game i thouht you would know! If you want to look it up for your self be my guest SRD go to monsters then special ability's. then look up special ability's under that it will be spell-Like Ability's.
Witchblade 07-23-05, 09:14 PM	It still wouldn't rest til it got its vengeance on yo butt.
He Who Lurks 07-23-05, 10:01 PM	Everyone has been digging as hard as they can to find a reason to deny this tactic, but alas it is in vain. Summoned creatures refuse to use powers that would cost XP if they were spells, but called creatures do not have that option. Genies don't even lose XP for granting wishes, as they are spell-like ablilities. Granting a wish definitively falls into the "immediate task" category of the gate spell's calling feature, as it takes only a standard action, and therefore you do not need to come to an agreement with the genie or pay it for its service. The offended party might be able to gate you back for revenge, or have some other party do it on their behalf, depending on your DM's reading of the word "unique". Not that the genie would be all that put out, in my opinion. It's not like the genie is losing anything other than a few minutes of time and the ability to grant wishes to non-genies for 24 hours. Sure, it might be a bit indignant, but no more indignant than you would be if you were, say, called away from your office to take a random drug test or something. You'd be annoyed and insulted, but not enough to seek bloody vengeance upon your boss, I'd hope. Some people listen to the Sage, but in this case neither of his decisions have any basis in the rules. In fact, they defy them. Edit: Hmm, forgot an important part. I would hope that before allowing this action (legal by the rules or not), any DM would carefully consider the impact on the game. It would vastly overpower pretty much everything. Just because the PCs thought of it doesn't mean no one else has. Fighting a BBEG with unlimited wishes at their disposal is a frightening concept, even for those similarly armed. In my opinion, it would absolutely ruin any campaign, and I personally would never allow it. Indeed, I think it was a mistake to allow any creatures other than gods to grant wishes as a spell-like or supernatural ability, mythologically consitent or not.
Vaelan 07-24-05, 05:21 AM	If you read the PHB, it says clearly that summoned creatures cannot use any ability which would normally cost XP. And as the Simbul said above, I dont hesitate to deny all summoned/called/conjured beings the use of such powers. If you don't want to deal with the alternative cost of summoning some sort of genie to grant Wishes instead of paying the experience cost, I would respect that as one of your players assuming you were to simply explain it as such and not try to weakly bend the rules to justify your preference. He Who Lurks, the comparison to a random drug test is flawed. First of all, the most common type of Wish-granting genie is the Efreeti, which definitely has reason to seek revenge (they abhor being in servitude to others). Further, even if the Gate is just an inconvenience, I know I would take steps to stop somebody from inconveniencing me every single day of my life.
Lord shadow35 07-24-05, 11:25 AM	First off a noble djinni is not an effreti it has stats like on but it is not one. and they grant wishes. and are not Lawful evil.
Lord shadow35 07-24-05, 11:28 AM	Witchblade, by the way if someone is casting the spell gate they are at least 17th level. they have nohing to fear from this effreti.
Disme 07-24-05, 11:47 AM	Of course, whats there to stop the genie from saying: "Oops, sorry. Your the 5th person today to try and do that. Im all out. You know, we do have a waiting list for this kinda thing." *pulls out pad of paper, puts on glasses* "Yes, it seems that if you call on Gahosavus in exactly 52 years, 32 days, 12 minutes, he should have a wish available. You would not BELIEVE how many of us get gated out daily. It takes me HOURS to have breakfast." Actually, come to think of it. Why wouldn't being that can cast wish have dimensional anchor on the asap to avoid such annoyances as being gated in the middle of a shower.
Psifon 07-24-05, 11:53 AM	There is nothing by RAW that says you can't do this. It is well within the perview of any old wizard to use Planar Binding to generate free wishes. The only limit on this tactic is a role-playing limit. That is to say the efritti would probably seek revenge, and he could use his wishes against you. Why would he seek revenge? Because he is an Efritti. A noble race of great power, and you are but a puny mortal wizard, and benieth his contempt. He would not let the indignity stand. How would he seek revenge? Well, he would probably seek out your enemy and offer him 3 wishes to use against you, such as: I wish he had a duck bill I wish he had the naughty bits of a whale I wish he had flippers for hands That would screw you up pretty good I would think, and he and your enemy would get a good laugh out of it. That said, what if you enlisted the Efritti into the task of making a magic item that used wishes (like a tome of understanding for instance). Hmm. Probably the same thing, but who knows, It's a bit more controlled than a standard wish, so you might be able to negotiate such a thing without incurring the wrath of the creature. BTW, killing the efritti off to avoid it's wrath will only make sure that ALL efritti are after you. That's a LOT of wishes.
SigilSigul 07-24-05, 02:22 PM	This sort of thing simply boggles my mind. When players defeat an Efreeti other times, do you have the 'entire Efreeti nation' rise up to deal with them? This is simply DM vs Players. Why can't you simply let the player do it once or twice, at that level, and then ... if they start abusing it, /then give ICC that make sense/? Rather than the sort of confrontational 'I will destroy you puny players!' stuff listed above? I thought that sort of DMing went out long ago.
Derren S. 07-24-05, 02:34 PM	By the rules it is perfectly legal. Gate in a noble genie, use two wishes at your leisure, use the third to let him forget that he was gated and send him back. As you have complete controll over him he can't twist the wishes. Works equally well with effreti
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-24-05, 02:50 PM	IMC, I rule that genies only grant strings-free wishes if released from prisons, out of gratitude. If you gate one in, they have to follow a simple law stolen wholesale from Full metal alchemist: Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. ... and the genie decides what 'equal value' is.
Psifon 07-24-05, 04:50 PM	This sort of thing simply boggles my mind. When players defeat an Efreeti other times, do you have the 'entire Efreeti nation' rise up to deal with them? This is simply DM vs Players. Why can't you simply let the player do it once or twice, at that level, and then ... if they start abusing it, /then give ICC that make sense/? Rather than the sort of confrontational 'I will destroy you puny players!' stuff listed above? I thought that sort of DMing went out long ago. Not at all. If an efritti let's himself get killed, well that is just too bad for him. But if mortals start summoning up efritti and forcing them to servitude... well, you just can't let puny mortals get away with such impudence. Remember it is no more troublesome for an efritti to use a wish for you than against you, and if he can screw you over, why shouldn't he?
SigilSigul 07-24-05, 05:47 PM	Actually, Efreeti grant wishes to nondjinni only. They can't use the wishes themselves.
Vaelan 07-24-05, 06:27 PM	First off a noble djinni is not an effreti it has stats like on but it is not one. and they grant wishes. and are not Lawful evil. Too bad you can't call a noble djinni unless you're extremely lucky or know one's name. As per the Monster Manual, a noble djinni is not a different type of creature as a normal djinni, and thus calling "a djinni" will give you a 1% chance of getting one capable of granting Wishes. Calling an Efreeti or the often-overlooked Glabrezu is much more reliable, in that sense at least. Gate in a noble genie, use two wishes at your leisure, use the third to let him forget that he was gated and send him back. And the third Wish would do so, in the form of a Modify Memory spell. Modify Memory is a Permanent effect, and thus is subject to Dispel Magic. When it is dispelled, the genie will remember that you not only forced him into servitude, but used his power to grant Wishes against him. Given that genies are Chaotic beings and that your actions in this situation are borderline Evil (exploiting a sentient, even Good, entity for personal gain), I'm guessing that particular genie wouldn't be particularly thrilled about your continued existence.
Babo 07-24-05, 06:36 PM	Since the Efreeti gains only 3 wishes per day, using one is not quite an immediate action. Although the actual wishing can be done in a single round, that action represents 8 hours of Efreeti time. Claiming it is an immediate action would be like claiming that making a sword is an immediate action, because handing it over takes but a moment. Spellcasters must pay for or extort their wishes from the Efreet. Rather than come up with various reasons why gaining Wishes this way won't work, make it part of the game. Claiming that every wish for the next 50 years is accounted for is extreme, but a very wealthy wizard might well put an individual Efreeti on retainer. Threaten that Efreeti with death to extort its wishes, and even though the Grand Sultan doesn't care, the wizrad who already paid good money for those wishes might. Wizards really will do this. I had a player once put an entire family of Efreet on retainer, all on his own initiative. He would buy dozens of wishes at a time. Mainly he used them to switch around feats, boost his stats, and make magic items. If the wizard pays the Efreeti, have the Efreeti begin to court the wizard with various favors and opportunities. Get him involved with City of Brass intrigue. Don't worry about the 'oh all the wizards are too powerful', just have fun roleplaying the consequences of the wishing. Any character can get in on the action if they have the means to get to the City of Brass. It's tough to imagine why the Efreeti wouldn't set up a shop for wishes there, since they can't use them on themselves. Why not become wealthy as mighty wizards dote upon them? In one of my old games I made the Efreeti servants of the god of greed and ill-gotten gains. If characters are bold enough to cross an Efreet, let them try it, but there really should be some kind of enforcement to prevent this. Bringing down the whole nation is absurd, but remember Efreeti have wishes to offer as payment to parties of adventurers and the bounty might prove rather attractive. I think it is quite possible to run a balanced (if epic and high magic) campaign with wishes for sale like this. It leans toward the planar adventure side of things. If you don't want to do it this way, take away or amend the wish ability. Otherwise it's a really phat way to get your characters to visit the City of Brass.
Vaelan 07-24-05, 06:49 PM	Since the Efreeti gains only 3 wishes per day, using one is not quite an immediate action. Although the actual wishing can be done in a single round, that action represents 8 hours of Efreeti time. Claiming it is an immediate action would be like claiming that making a sword is an immediate action, because handing it over takes but a moment. Spellcasters must pay for or extort their wishes from the Efreet. Your example is flawed. Making a sword requires some amount of effort from the crafter, while regaining spell-like abilities requires none. I believe this is an important distinction.
Lord shadow35 07-24-05, 07:27 PM	All i want to say is by game mechanic's you can abuse this. Don't try to come up with corny house rules. This is a fact. Yes you can get a noble djinni every hear of the spell vision. you can use vision to get a noble djinni's name. or you can ask a more speific way like: tell me the name of a noble djinni who has now used his wishes for the day.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-24-05, 08:23 PM	All i want to say is by game mechanic's you can abuse this. Don't try to come up with corny house rules. This is a fact. Why, may I ask, are we not allowed to houserule to block this abuse? We all know the rules have failed us in this respect. As DMs, some of us here have a responsabilty to our players to fix it.
Seeker95 07-24-05, 09:40 PM	LordShadow, I just want to thank you for making me smile. More than once. In a single thread. :D
Babo 07-24-05, 09:45 PM	You don't think gaining access to a spell the casting of which requires 5,000 XP? While I wouldn't say (and didn't say) that ALL spell-like abilities require some effort to gain, I do think a decent argument can be made for this particular case. Otherwise we're stuck in the school that says you can gate an Efreeti and force him to wish for you as a function of the gate spell. This makes gate far more powerful then wish and no one wants that to happen. Even if it doesn't require any actual effort on the part of the Efreet, a wish has value (25,000 gp to be precise) and so represents labor, because it does take time to obtain this value. The wish represents 8 hours of Efreeti labor. While the actual transfer of this value takes only 3 rounds, the production of this value takes 8 hours even if no other resources whatever are required. A similar case is the Vorpal blade of the Balor. You wouldn't dream of calling a Balor and expect it to hand over the simply as a function of the gate spell, would you? Where do you think they get these blades? Someone or something must be forging them, maybe deities make them and grant them to the Balors. Producing that magnificent sword requires labor, a lot more labor than manifested in a single wish, but it's the same principle. Now if, given 17 rounds, a Balor could manufacture its Vorpal Blade using a completely renewable source of energy and negligible material resources, I would have to say that a mere 17th level wizard could get them so simply. The point is that the Efreet power to grant wishes is a great way to put the Energy planes into the campaign. Allowing wizards to gate in Efreet, and get wishes from them through purchase or extortion, leads to numerous adventure ideas. I structured an entire campaign around the idea. The City of Brass wound up besieged by a demonic Hecatoncheires (100-handed monster) that the very wizard who purchased dozens of wishes accidentally released from an artifact- while in the midst of an attempt to steal a horde with which to buy more wishes! The Grand Sultan raised an unheard-of mercenary army using 1,001 wishes as payment as the demon took control of several Lower Planes. They never did figure out who released it. If ideas like that sound cool to you, allow wizards to gate Efreet (or other creature of your creation) and get the wishes. If they don't appeal to you, run it differently. I certainly wouldn't allow it to become a distraction in a game where it would detract from the focus.
childofbhaal 07-24-05, 10:53 PM	as ive said many many times, the characters can argue and squable all they want about the rules, in the end, the DM can throw the book, say its broken, and thats that. OR, he could say, good idea, nice job, 500 xp for thinking up such a notion, but you can only use it so many times. dont take the power of such a ruling away from the DM, it has consequences (believe me, i know)
Klytus 07-24-05, 11:37 PM	All i want to say is by game mechanic's you can abuse this. Don't try to come up with corny house rules. This is a fact. Yes you can get a noble djinni every hear of the spell vision. you can use vision to get a noble djinni's name. or you can ask a more speific way like: tell me the name of a noble djinni who has now used his wishes for the day. You are right that it can be done By The Book. But why should DMs be forbidden form making house-rules to prevent it? I've got pages and pages of House Rules to "fix" things I think are broken in the RAW. Why should Gating in a Djinni for wishes be any different?
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-25-05, 12:07 AM	I've got pages and pages of House Rules to "fix" things I think are broken in the RAW. Why should Gating in a Djinni for wishes be any different? Because the designers are ineffable GAWDS and 3.5 is the Single Perfect System and all other systems shall spring from its loins. Those who houserule to fix things are blasphemers, heretics and harlots! You don't want to be a harlot, do you Klytus? Then lockstep with the crowd and let your game take a nosedive because some rules lawyer (or four year old for that matter) was able to notice the gaping flaw in the rules.
Quetzy 07-25-05, 04:25 AM	First of all, if you're calling a specific individual by name he does not have to come through the gate. Thus, noble genies are more or less out of the equasion (unless you want to gate in 50-100 genies to find a noble one). In the case of Efretti, my DM would either rule it as not an immediate task (therefore requiring bargaining) or use his own devious interpretation of "granting three wishes" in which case the efretti grants you three wishes - to cast (and pay their XP cost yourself :P). I know it's a bit OOC if we look into stories where they simply fulfill your wishes (though in those cases they do it out of gratitude!), but it's ok for game balance and can still be useful. Another matter is planar binding, which *is* broken in this case. Why? Because even though there are many saves/opposed check involved (binding/anchor/SR/charisma), at lvl17 you *can* make a secure trap and hold the creature indefinitely (when the spell ends, just call it again right away). This would make a wizard able to get unlimited amount of wishes (or any other service, which here does not have to be an 'immediate task') for no XP cost at all. Time is the only factor, and it's not really a problem (you could get tons of wishes in a single month, let alone year). This would make for some very powerful wizards indeed, and there is not much chance the efretti/genie would ever get his revenge (as it would spend most of its life bound in your circle).
Vaelan 07-25-05, 08:48 AM	Then lockstep with the crowd and let your game take a nosedive because some rules lawyer (or four year old for that matter) was able to notice the gaping flaw in the rules. I wouldn't call this a gaping flaw in the rules. It just requires a little creativity to ensure that, due to entirely reasonable motivations of the parties involved, the PC ends up paying some sort of cost that is roughly the equivalent of the XP he got out of paying by making a genie grant the Wishes instead of casting them himself. I can see where a lot of DMs wouldn't want to deal with this, but I don't think that claiming it is a flaw in the rules or that it is breaking the rules is the solution. I think a far more reasonable solution is to tell your players that you would prefer not to deal with the consequences of them taking such an action. If you have conditioned your players correctly and do not overuse such statements, your players will be able to figure out that they probably won't want you to deal with the consequences of such an act either. ;)