Can I have an incorporeal character? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can I have an incorporeal character? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thorofasgard13
07-13-07, 01:40 AM I was wondering whether there was a way to make my current character permanently incorporeal without being a ghost/undead? Even a wish would be ok.

Also would this mean most of my equipment must be ghost touch?
Dheran
07-13-07, 03:21 AM There's the Ghostform spell (Spell Compendium), and you can apply the Persistent Spell metamagic feat to make it last all day. You'll just need a 14th level spell slot to make this work.

Since just to do this on a recurring basis requires Epic spellcasting abilities, I'd say a permanent incorporeal form would be vastly past what a simple Wish can grant.
Yaeri
07-13-07, 11:10 AM Permanent incorporeality sounds like something that should either bring a significant level adjustment with it, or a cost ranging into epic.
Only magic weapons would be able to hit you, and even then everything has a 50% miss chance. That's really big.
tarkin
07-13-07, 11:18 AM You are looking for an incorporeal creature that is not undead.

Take the Vivacious Creature template from the Planar Handbook. It makes you an Positive Material Plane creature that is an incorporeal version of a normal creature.

It costs +3 Level adjustment.

There are also Spirit Animals from Frostburn, but they are not supposed to be player races and don't have a Level Adjustment.
thorofasgard13
07-13-07, 11:25 AM Thank you
:D
About my equipment though, would it need to all be ghost-touch for me to handle it ?
tarkin
07-13-07, 11:29 AM You can either get:

1. Incorporeal equiptment, so it can not touch the real world, etc.

2. Corporela equiptment that has Ghost touched on it.

Generally #2 is a better idea, in part because #1 is so hard to find (Kill a manifested ghost and take his stuff? maybe.)
Sarlax
07-13-07, 12:18 PM The Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm)are a naturally incoporeal psionic race. You get favorable ability score modifers, neat abilities (effectively disguise self and telekinesis at will), and 4 levels of psion for ECL 8. Not bad.

Don't get incorporeal equipment. Don't get ghost touch. Get the Ghostly Grasp feat from Libris Mortis. It allows incorporeal creatures to wear and use items as if corporeal.
thorofasgard13
07-13-07, 12:34 PM The Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm)are a naturally incoporeal psionic race. You get favorable ability score modifers, neat abilities (effectively disguise self and telekinesis at will), and 4 levels of psion for ECL 8. Not bad.

Don't get incorporeal equipment. Don't get ghost touch. Get the Ghostly Grasp feat from Libris Mortis. It allows incorporeal creatures to wear and use items as if corporeal.

I wanted to make a current character incorporeal. But I will look at that Ghostly Grasp feat. Thank you.
HellflameArcanite
07-13-07, 12:50 PM With a carefully worded Wish, anything's possible.
tarkin
07-13-07, 01:29 PM That statement is almost true.

A better wording would be:

"With a carefully worded wish, anything that totally SCREWS the player is possible".

Wishes are 9th level spells. They are NOT some super-powerfull do anything spell that can be used to do anything. They can only do something that a 9th level spell can do. No more, no less.
Thiez
07-13-07, 01:40 PM I think you contradict yourself there. How about: "With a carefully worded wish, anything that is within the limits of Wish is possible". It makes no sense for the power of wish to increase if it has a negative effect on the player.
Crimson_Concerto
07-13-07, 01:49 PM Psion Uncarnate Prestige Class?
sijigs
07-13-07, 06:08 PM Psion Uncarnate Prestige Class?

Ya beat me to it!!! Yeap I recommend this class, too
Part-Human2
07-13-07, 06:41 PM Savage Species' Ritual of Transfiguration is +2 LA and makes you incorporeal.

Races
Unbodied - 4 HD +4 LA (XPH)

Templates
Vivacious Template - +5 LA (PlanarHB)
tarkin
07-13-07, 06:47 PM Of the above, only Vivascious, Unbodied and Sacred Watcher, and the 3.0 ritual from Savage Species do not involve becoming undead (he specifically said no undead).
thorofasgard13
07-13-07, 10:57 PM Now with Ghostly Grasp and incorporeal creatures having no strength scores how much can they actually carry?
bigbythewise
07-13-07, 11:41 PM Now with Ghostly Grasp and incorporeal creatures having no strength scores how much can they actually carry?

Nothing corporeal?
I'm a bit confused here but assuming that no STR = no any more load.
Sarlax
07-14-07, 12:52 AM Nothing corporeal?
I'm a bit confused here but assuming that no STR = no any more load.
The feat is unfortunately silent on this matter. While their is precedent for ability substitution (Charisma for Constitution with concentration checks, for instance), I don't what players could do with this. I would just say that an STR (-) creature has STR 10 with ghostly grasp.
thorofasgard13
07-14-07, 01:52 AM The feat is unfortunately silent on this matter. While their is precedent for ability substitution (Charisma for Constitution with concentration checks, for instance), I don't what players could do with this. I would just say that an STR (-) creature has STR 10 with ghostly grasp.

would you say charisma would work since this is basically a strenght of will thing, willing yourself to pick it up?
ArcTan
07-14-07, 02:14 AM The feat is unfortunately silent on this matter. While their is precedent for ability substitution (Charisma for Constitution with concentration checks, for instance), I don't what players could do with this. I would just say that an STR (-) creature has STR 10 with ghostly grasp.

But Ghosts don't have Str (-). They keep their original Str score.

Ghosts would be able to use this feat just fine. It's naturally incorporeal creatures that actually do have Str (-) who couldn't use it, which is also fine.

I'm sad we've gotten this far and not one person has mentioned Ghostwalk.
thorofasgard13
07-14-07, 02:44 AM But Ghosts don't have Str (-). They keep their original Str score.

Ghosts would be able to use this feat just fine. It's naturally incorporeal creatures that actually do have Str (-) who couldn't use it, which is also fine.

I'm sad we've gotten this far and not one person has mentioned Ghostwalk.

But it specifically says an incorporeal character has no strength score, so her dexterity modifier applies to both her melee and her ranged attacks. What exactly is ghost walk?
ArcTan
07-14-07, 03:07 AM But it specifically says an incorporeal character has no strength score, so her dexterity modifier applies to both her melee and her ranged attacks.

That seems to be a description, not a rule. Under the MM entry for Ghost it says

Abilities

Same as the base creature, except that the ghost has no Constitution score, and its Charisma score increases by +4.

Note that it doesn't touch the Ghost's Str score.

Other incorporeal creatures like Wraiths and Shadows indeed have Str (-). But Ghosts have a Str score because while they're on the Ethereal Plane they *aren't* incorporeal -- they're just as solid as everything else. (One way to put it is that their manifestation is corporeal, not themselves.)

So this feat lets Ghosts be solid on both the Material and Ethereal Planes. It doesn't work for Wraiths and Shadows, but, well, sucks to be them (Wraiths and Shadows aren't the type to want to or even think of picking up weapons anyway).

What exactly is ghost walk?

Ghostwalk is an old 3.0 campaign setting/supplement that talked about a world where becoming ghosts is the natural state of dead sentients, and where therefore this kind of "ghost" is just an incorporeal version of the deceased creature rather than the Undead creature it is in the MM. (MM Ghosts in Ghostwalk are said to be a cursed or tainted distortion of the natural processes of death and ghost-formation.)
Sarlax
07-14-07, 11:11 AM Ghosts would be able to use this feat just fine. It's naturally incorporeal creatures that actually do have Str (-) who couldn't use it, which is also fine.
I think that probably runs against the intent of the feat, which is why I houserule as I do. Like many things Libris Mortis, it needs some reworking.
I'm sad we've gotten this far and not one person has mentioned Ghostwalk.Eh, Ghostwalk has a lot of problems, particular the ability score damage-approach to ghost powers. It's also 3.0 and I'm reluctant to go back that far.

It does have a very handy approach for PCs who want to be incorporeal, though. As a ghost, one can just take the Full Manifestation feat to be corporeal for a round.
thorofasgard13
07-14-07, 12:04 PM I wasn't speaking about ghosts, but the ritual of transfiguration that makes you incorporeal says that you lose a strength score. So I wasnt sure what to do.
Molitor
07-14-07, 12:09 PM Don't forget that incorporeal critters have fly speeds, can pass through solid objects(partially) and make no noise unless they wish to. So basically all your ranks in climb, jump, move silent, and hide will have been a total waste.
thorofasgard13
07-14-07, 01:08 PM Don't forget that incorporeal critters have fly speeds, can pass through solid objects(partially) and make no noise unless they wish to. So basically all your ranks in climb, jump, move silent, and hide will have been a total waste.

That will be fine I'm a sorcerer and I'm venerable aged.
ArcTan
07-14-07, 01:59 PM I think that probably runs against the intent of the feat, which is why I houserule as I do. Like many things Libris Mortis, it needs some reworking.

Enh. Libris Mortis is for Undead. The only Incorporeal Undead race that exists that could ever meaningfully be a PC is Ghosts. If it works for Ghosts, then it works (in my opinion).
Sarlax
07-14-07, 06:02 PM Enh. Libris Mortis is for Undead. The only Incorporeal Undead race that exists that could ever meaningfully be a PC is Ghosts. If it works for Ghosts, then it works (in my opinion).
Whether or not ghosts are the only undead suitable for PCs doesn't matter. They're monstrous feats and should apply to monsters. There's no reason why the feat should neglect how it can be used with Shadows and Wraiths for a DM who wants to explore those as variants.
Thiez
07-15-07, 12:33 PM Whether or not ghosts are the only undead suitable for PCs doesn't matter. They're monstrous feats and should apply to monsters. There's no reason why the feat should neglect how it can be used with Shadows and Wraiths for a DM who wants to explore those as variants.

What do you mean with the "They're monstrous feats and should apply to monsters." part?
Sarlax
07-15-07, 01:08 PM What do you mean with the "They're monstrous feats and should apply to monsters." part?
They're feats for monsters. Narrowed Gaze, for instance, gives you an option with your gaze attack. Spit Poison lets you use your bite delivery poison as a ranged touch attack. Gaze attacks and poison bites aren't possessed by the normal races, they are monster abilities. Feats that enhance them are monstrous feats. "Monstrous feats" appeared in Savage Species but it doesn't have any game effects, it's just descriptive.
sigma999
07-15-07, 08:53 PM Yes you can be forever incorporeal.

Have your character stab their own head.

Your DM will poop toads in fury when they realize how unbalanced it is for your character to gain those AWESOME COMBAT BONUSES!!! Can't be hit by normal weapons? 50% miss chance? Move through everything!?!?!

WOW!

That's really unfair, ya know! You should be penalized for that!

And .... your character is also dead. There's a lot of things you can't do... when you're dead...
dndfencer
07-15-07, 09:05 PM You can have incorporeal easy. Just look for that class in XPH that has to do with incorporealty. I can't remember what it's called but eventually it gives you permanent incorporealty but with the ability to become corporeal for a couple of minutes per day
ArcTan
07-15-07, 09:10 PM They're feats for monsters. Narrowed Gaze, for instance, gives you an option with your gaze attack. Spit Poison lets you use your bite delivery poison as a ranged touch attack. Gaze attacks and poison bites aren't possessed by the normal races, they are monster abilities. Feats that enhance them are monstrous feats. "Monstrous feats" appeared in Savage Species but it doesn't have any game effects, it's just descriptive.

Sure, and Ghosts are still a kind of monster, not a default PC race. You have to go to the Monster Manual for the rules for Ghosts, not the PHB. Only having it work for Ghosts still makes sense -- it's *called* "Ghostly Grasp", and all it does is replace the ghost touch weapon/armor enhancement by allowing you to treat all equipment as ghost touch.

One fairly major piece of evidence that failing to account for the Str (-) of non-Ghost Incorporeal characters wasn't an oversight -- at least not an oversight merely of the creator of the Ghostly Grasp feat -- is that the ghost touch enhancement has existed since core, and *also* has no provision for Str (-) characters.

You can still see this as an oversight if you want, and houserule something about counting Cha as Str for this purpose -- the fact that Ghostly Grasp has a minimum Cha requirement to take the feat is a flavor argument for this idea -- but all I'm saying is I don't think it's absolutely necessary.
thorofasgard13
07-15-07, 10:41 PM Yes you can be forever incorporeal.

Have your character stab their own head.

Your DM will poop toads in fury when they realize how unbalanced it is for your character to gain those AWESOME COMBAT BONUSES!!! Can't be hit by normal weapons? 50% miss chance? Move through everything!?!?!

WOW!

That's really unfair, ya know! You should be penalized for that!

And .... your character is also dead. There's a lot of things you can't do... when you're dead...

Not undead...Not ghost. Just Incorporeal, and if there is a force effect I'm just as stuck as any one else and with a level adjustment it evens out as the other casters in the group can cast etherealness and teleport without error and many other things that I cant.
And Ghostly grasp can be for any incorporeal, would you say only dragons can get draconic toughness or any other such named feat that is not racial.
ArcTan
07-16-07, 02:09 AM Not undead...Not ghost. Just Incorporeal, and if there is a force effect I'm just as stuck as any one else and with a level adjustment it evens out as the other casters in the group can cast etherealness and teleport without error and many other things that I cant.
And Ghostly grasp can be for any incorporeal, would you say only dragons can get draconic toughness or any other such named feat that is not racial.

Yeah, but like I said, the thing is that Ghostly Grasp doesn't give you a Str score, and if your Str is still (-) then you're not strong enough to pick anything up, ghost touch or no ghost touch.
Part-Human2
07-16-07, 06:50 PM Yeah, but like I said, the thing is that Ghostly Grasp doesn't give you a Str score, and if your Str is still (-) then you're not strong enough to pick anything up, ghost touch or no ghost touch.

Actually it says "You can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal." If you were not incorporeal you'd have a STR score.

The sample Ephemeral Exemplar (pg 53) is a Spectre with the Ghostly Grasp feat.

Anyways there is precedence for CHA for STR in Libris Mortis (pg 143) for when 2 incorporeal creatures grapple and for losing incorporealness.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thorofasgard13 07-13-07, 01:40 AM	I was wondering whether there was a way to make my current character permanently incorporeal without being a ghost/undead? Even a wish would be ok. Also would this mean most of my equipment must be ghost touch?
Dheran 07-13-07, 03:21 AM	There's the Ghostform spell (Spell Compendium), and you can apply the Persistent Spell metamagic feat to make it last all day. You'll just need a 14th level spell slot to make this work. Since just to do this on a recurring basis requires Epic spellcasting abilities, I'd say a permanent incorporeal form would be vastly past what a simple Wish can grant.
Yaeri 07-13-07, 11:10 AM	Permanent incorporeality sounds like something that should either bring a significant level adjustment with it, or a cost ranging into epic. Only magic weapons would be able to hit you, and even then everything has a 50% miss chance. That's really big.
tarkin 07-13-07, 11:18 AM	You are looking for an incorporeal creature that is not undead. Take the Vivacious Creature template from the Planar Handbook. It makes you an Positive Material Plane creature that is an incorporeal version of a normal creature. It costs +3 Level adjustment. There are also Spirit Animals from Frostburn, but they are not supposed to be player races and don't have a Level Adjustment.
thorofasgard13 07-13-07, 11:25 AM	Thank you :D About my equipment though, would it need to all be ghost-touch for me to handle it ?
tarkin 07-13-07, 11:29 AM	You can either get: 1. Incorporeal equiptment, so it can not touch the real world, etc. 2. Corporela equiptment that has Ghost touched on it. Generally #2 is a better idea, in part because #1 is so hard to find (Kill a manifested ghost and take his stuff? maybe.)
Sarlax 07-13-07, 12:18 PM	The Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm)are a naturally incoporeal psionic race. You get favorable ability score modifers, neat abilities (effectively disguise self and telekinesis at will), and 4 levels of psion for ECL 8. Not bad. Don't get incorporeal equipment. Don't get ghost touch. Get the Ghostly Grasp feat from Libris Mortis. It allows incorporeal creatures to wear and use items as if corporeal.
thorofasgard13 07-13-07, 12:34 PM	The Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm)are a naturally incoporeal psionic race. You get favorable ability score modifers, neat abilities (effectively disguise self and telekinesis at will), and 4 levels of psion for ECL 8. Not bad. Don't get incorporeal equipment. Don't get ghost touch. Get the Ghostly Grasp feat from Libris Mortis. It allows incorporeal creatures to wear and use items as if corporeal. I wanted to make a current character incorporeal. But I will look at that Ghostly Grasp feat. Thank you.
HellflameArcanite 07-13-07, 12:50 PM	With a carefully worded Wish, anything's possible.
tarkin 07-13-07, 01:29 PM	That statement is almost true. A better wording would be: "With a carefully worded wish, anything that totally SCREWS the player is possible". Wishes are 9th level spells. They are NOT some super-powerfull do anything spell that can be used to do anything. They can only do something that a 9th level spell can do. No more, no less.
Thiez 07-13-07, 01:40 PM	I think you contradict yourself there. How about: "With a carefully worded wish, anything that is within the limits of Wish is possible". It makes no sense for the power of wish to increase if it has a negative effect on the player.
Crimson_Concerto 07-13-07, 01:49 PM	Psion Uncarnate Prestige Class?
sijigs 07-13-07, 06:08 PM	Psion Uncarnate Prestige Class? Ya beat me to it!!! Yeap I recommend this class, too
Part-Human2 07-13-07, 06:41 PM	Savage Species' Ritual of Transfiguration is +2 LA and makes you incorporeal. Races Unbodied - 4 HD +4 LA (XPH) Templates Vivacious Template - +5 LA (PlanarHB)
tarkin 07-13-07, 06:47 PM	Of the above, only Vivascious, Unbodied and Sacred Watcher, and the 3.0 ritual from Savage Species do not involve becoming undead (he specifically said no undead).
thorofasgard13 07-13-07, 10:57 PM	Now with Ghostly Grasp and incorporeal creatures having no strength scores how much can they actually carry?
bigbythewise 07-13-07, 11:41 PM	Now with Ghostly Grasp and incorporeal creatures having no strength scores how much can they actually carry? Nothing corporeal? I'm a bit confused here but assuming that no STR = no any more load.
Sarlax 07-14-07, 12:52 AM	Nothing corporeal? I'm a bit confused here but assuming that no STR = no any more load. The feat is unfortunately silent on this matter. While their is precedent for ability substitution (Charisma for Constitution with concentration checks, for instance), I don't what players could do with this. I would just say that an STR (-) creature has STR 10 with ghostly grasp.
thorofasgard13 07-14-07, 01:52 AM	The feat is unfortunately silent on this matter. While their is precedent for ability substitution (Charisma for Constitution with concentration checks, for instance), I don't what players could do with this. I would just say that an STR (-) creature has STR 10 with ghostly grasp. would you say charisma would work since this is basically a strenght of will thing, willing yourself to pick it up?
ArcTan 07-14-07, 02:14 AM	The feat is unfortunately silent on this matter. While their is precedent for ability substitution (Charisma for Constitution with concentration checks, for instance), I don't what players could do with this. I would just say that an STR (-) creature has STR 10 with ghostly grasp. But Ghosts don't have Str (-). They keep their original Str score. Ghosts would be able to use this feat just fine. It's naturally incorporeal creatures that actually do have Str (-) who couldn't use it, which is also fine. I'm sad we've gotten this far and not one person has mentioned Ghostwalk.
thorofasgard13 07-14-07, 02:44 AM	But Ghosts don't have Str (-). They keep their original Str score. Ghosts would be able to use this feat just fine. It's naturally incorporeal creatures that actually do have Str (-) who couldn't use it, which is also fine. I'm sad we've gotten this far and not one person has mentioned Ghostwalk. But it specifically says an incorporeal character has no strength score, so her dexterity modifier applies to both her melee and her ranged attacks. What exactly is ghost walk?
ArcTan 07-14-07, 03:07 AM	But it specifically says an incorporeal character has no strength score, so her dexterity modifier applies to both her melee and her ranged attacks. That seems to be a description, not a rule. Under the MM entry for Ghost it says Abilities Same as the base creature, except that the ghost has no Constitution score, and its Charisma score increases by +4. Note that it doesn't touch the Ghost's Str score. Other incorporeal creatures like Wraiths and Shadows indeed have Str (-). But Ghosts have a Str score because while they're on the Ethereal Plane they aren't incorporeal -- they're just as solid as everything else. (One way to put it is that their manifestation is corporeal, not themselves.) So this feat lets Ghosts be solid on both the Material and Ethereal Planes. It doesn't work for Wraiths and Shadows, but, well, sucks to be them (Wraiths and Shadows aren't the type to want to or even think of picking up weapons anyway). What exactly is ghost walk? Ghostwalk is an old 3.0 campaign setting/supplement that talked about a world where becoming ghosts is the natural state of dead sentients, and where therefore this kind of "ghost" is just an incorporeal version of the deceased creature rather than the Undead creature it is in the MM. (MM Ghosts in Ghostwalk are said to be a cursed or tainted distortion of the natural processes of death and ghost-formation.)
Sarlax 07-14-07, 11:11 AM	Ghosts would be able to use this feat just fine. It's naturally incorporeal creatures that actually do have Str (-) who couldn't use it, which is also fine. I think that probably runs against the intent of the feat, which is why I houserule as I do. Like many things Libris Mortis, it needs some reworking. I'm sad we've gotten this far and not one person has mentioned Ghostwalk.Eh, Ghostwalk has a lot of problems, particular the ability score damage-approach to ghost powers. It's also 3.0 and I'm reluctant to go back that far. It does have a very handy approach for PCs who want to be incorporeal, though. As a ghost, one can just take the Full Manifestation feat to be corporeal for a round.
thorofasgard13 07-14-07, 12:04 PM	I wasn't speaking about ghosts, but the ritual of transfiguration that makes you incorporeal says that you lose a strength score. So I wasnt sure what to do.
Molitor 07-14-07, 12:09 PM	Don't forget that incorporeal critters have fly speeds, can pass through solid objects(partially) and make no noise unless they wish to. So basically all your ranks in climb, jump, move silent, and hide will have been a total waste.
thorofasgard13 07-14-07, 01:08 PM	Don't forget that incorporeal critters have fly speeds, can pass through solid objects(partially) and make no noise unless they wish to. So basically all your ranks in climb, jump, move silent, and hide will have been a total waste. That will be fine I'm a sorcerer and I'm venerable aged.
ArcTan 07-14-07, 01:59 PM	I think that probably runs against the intent of the feat, which is why I houserule as I do. Like many things Libris Mortis, it needs some reworking. Enh. Libris Mortis is for Undead. The only Incorporeal Undead race that exists that could ever meaningfully be a PC is Ghosts. If it works for Ghosts, then it works (in my opinion).
Sarlax 07-14-07, 06:02 PM	Enh. Libris Mortis is for Undead. The only Incorporeal Undead race that exists that could ever meaningfully be a PC is Ghosts. If it works for Ghosts, then it works (in my opinion). Whether or not ghosts are the only undead suitable for PCs doesn't matter. They're monstrous feats and should apply to monsters. There's no reason why the feat should neglect how it can be used with Shadows and Wraiths for a DM who wants to explore those as variants.
Thiez 07-15-07, 12:33 PM	Whether or not ghosts are the only undead suitable for PCs doesn't matter. They're monstrous feats and should apply to monsters. There's no reason why the feat should neglect how it can be used with Shadows and Wraiths for a DM who wants to explore those as variants. What do you mean with the "They're monstrous feats and should apply to monsters." part?
Sarlax 07-15-07, 01:08 PM	What do you mean with the "They're monstrous feats and should apply to monsters." part? They're feats for monsters. Narrowed Gaze, for instance, gives you an option with your gaze attack. Spit Poison lets you use your bite delivery poison as a ranged touch attack. Gaze attacks and poison bites aren't possessed by the normal races, they are monster abilities. Feats that enhance them are monstrous feats. "Monstrous feats" appeared in Savage Species but it doesn't have any game effects, it's just descriptive.
sigma999 07-15-07, 08:53 PM	Yes you can be forever incorporeal. Have your character stab their own head. Your DM will poop toads in fury when they realize how unbalanced it is for your character to gain those AWESOME COMBAT BONUSES!!! Can't be hit by normal weapons? 50% miss chance? Move through everything!?!?! WOW! That's really unfair, ya know! You should be penalized for that! And .... your character is also dead. There's a lot of things you can't do... when you're dead...
dndfencer 07-15-07, 09:05 PM	You can have incorporeal easy. Just look for that class in XPH that has to do with incorporealty. I can't remember what it's called but eventually it gives you permanent incorporealty but with the ability to become corporeal for a couple of minutes per day
ArcTan 07-15-07, 09:10 PM	They're feats for monsters. Narrowed Gaze, for instance, gives you an option with your gaze attack. Spit Poison lets you use your bite delivery poison as a ranged touch attack. Gaze attacks and poison bites aren't possessed by the normal races, they are monster abilities. Feats that enhance them are monstrous feats. "Monstrous feats" appeared in Savage Species but it doesn't have any game effects, it's just descriptive. Sure, and Ghosts are still a kind of monster, not a default PC race. You have to go to the Monster Manual for the rules for Ghosts, not the PHB. Only having it work for Ghosts still makes sense -- it's called "Ghostly Grasp", and all it does is replace the ghost touch weapon/armor enhancement by allowing you to treat all equipment as ghost touch. One fairly major piece of evidence that failing to account for the Str (-) of non-Ghost Incorporeal characters wasn't an oversight -- at least not an oversight merely of the creator of the Ghostly Grasp feat -- is that the ghost touch enhancement has existed since core, and also has no provision for Str (-) characters. You can still see this as an oversight if you want, and houserule something about counting Cha as Str for this purpose -- the fact that Ghostly Grasp has a minimum Cha requirement to take the feat is a flavor argument for this idea -- but all I'm saying is I don't think it's absolutely necessary.
thorofasgard13 07-15-07, 10:41 PM	Yes you can be forever incorporeal. Have your character stab their own head. Your DM will poop toads in fury when they realize how unbalanced it is for your character to gain those AWESOME COMBAT BONUSES!!! Can't be hit by normal weapons? 50% miss chance? Move through everything!?!?! WOW! That's really unfair, ya know! You should be penalized for that! And .... your character is also dead. There's a lot of things you can't do... when you're dead... Not undead...Not ghost. Just Incorporeal, and if there is a force effect I'm just as stuck as any one else and with a level adjustment it evens out as the other casters in the group can cast etherealness and teleport without error and many other things that I cant. And Ghostly grasp can be for any incorporeal, would you say only dragons can get draconic toughness or any other such named feat that is not racial.
ArcTan 07-16-07, 02:09 AM	Not undead...Not ghost. Just Incorporeal, and if there is a force effect I'm just as stuck as any one else and with a level adjustment it evens out as the other casters in the group can cast etherealness and teleport without error and many other things that I cant. And Ghostly grasp can be for any incorporeal, would you say only dragons can get draconic toughness or any other such named feat that is not racial. Yeah, but like I said, the thing is that Ghostly Grasp doesn't give you a Str score, and if your Str is still (-) then you're not strong enough to pick anything up, ghost touch or no ghost touch.
Part-Human2 07-16-07, 06:50 PM	Yeah, but like I said, the thing is that Ghostly Grasp doesn't give you a Str score, and if your Str is still (-) then you're not strong enough to pick anything up, ghost touch or no ghost touch. Actually it says "You can wear, wield, and otherwise use corporeal items as though you were not incorporeal." If you were not incorporeal you'd have a STR score. The sample Ephemeral Exemplar (pg 53) is a Spectre with the Ghostly Grasp feat. Anyways there is precedence for CHA for STR in Libris Mortis (pg 143) for when 2 incorporeal creatures grapple and for losing incorporealness.