Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tectorman 08-23-07, 12:40 PM	There was actually a shorter title that I was considering, but it looked vulgar in text. So..., exactly that. Say I'm a Duskblade and I know the Dimension Hop spell; can I touch attack myself and gain it's benefits? Rant Warning! I ask because of all the teleportation spells and effects, the Dimension Door is the only one that I know of where you can't take any more actions after you use it, so I want to use that ability without that particular drawback. Plus, a Duskblade doesn't really have all the extra spell levels in order to metamagic a 4th-level spell.
Mindolin 08-23-07, 12:43 PM	Yeah, if you couldn't use a touch spell on yourself, then Clerics are in trouble as they couldn't heal themselves.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-23-07, 12:52 PM	You can use touch spells on yourself, but you'll go blind, make baby Jesus cry, and gain the werewolf template.
yrogerg 08-23-07, 12:56 PM	Every time you use a touch spell on yourself, Pelor kills a Commoner 1.
Mindolin 08-23-07, 01:09 PM	Every time you use a touch spell on yourself, Pelor kills a Commoner 1. Good, then the benefits are twofold, one the balance shifts to the evil side due to Pelor's corruption, and two: we've got too many of those anyway.
Tectorman 08-23-07, 01:56 PM	Every time you use a touch spell on yourself, Pelor kills a Commoner 1. By doing what, sending a Half-Celestial Cat after them? But seriously, the answer is yes, then? And could anyone cite where the rule comes from (besides good common sense that Clerics should be able to heal themselves)?
risner 08-23-07, 02:33 PM	Say I'm a Duskblade and I know the Dimension Hop spell; can I touch attack myself and gain it's benefits? Can you cast a touch spell on yourself? Yes Can you attack yourself via arcane channeling? Not defined (DM fiat; I say no) Can you Arcane Channel a Dimensional Hop spell to move yourself? Not defined (DM fiat; I say no)
Platstud 08-23-07, 02:46 PM	Touch Spells in Combat Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. I love Pelor, I want Him to love me, When I take damage, I pray he's above me. ... I don't heal anybody else, When I cast a cure spell I touch myself.
Amaril 08-23-07, 03:06 PM	You can use touch spells on yourself, but you'll go blind, make baby Jesus cry, and gain the werewolf template.Please, think of the kittens.
Puca 08-23-07, 04:00 PM	I love Pelor, I want Him to love me, When I take damage, I pray he's above me. ... I don't heal anybody else, When I cast a cure spell I touch myself. :rofl: Because you obviously can deliver a touch-spell to yourself, I came to this thread for no other reason to make a joke referencing that very song. You did it better than I would have.
Platstud 08-23-07, 04:24 PM	:rofl: Because you obviously can deliver a touch-spell to yourself, I came to this thread for no other reason to make a joke referencing that very song. You did it better than I would have. Thanks. :) The Divinyls will always have a special place in my heart.
Jaxgaret 08-23-07, 05:43 PM	Looking at the Dimension Hop spell, it says Saving Throw: Will negates. In every spell that has a range of Touch that you would cast on yourself, it says either Saving Throw: None or Saving Throw: X (Harmless). The latter designates that the spell is harmless to the recipient, so there is no save involved. Since Dimension Hop has no such descriptor, I would say that casting Dimension Hop on yourself triggers a Will save to resist, whether you want to resist it or not. Unless, of course, you can find other potentially beneficial spells that don't follow the same pattern that I stated above. Let me know if you find any.
MareltEkiran 08-23-07, 05:59 PM	Looking at the Dimension Hop spell, it says Saving Throw: Will negates. In every spell that has a range of Touch that you would cast on yourself, it says either Saving Throw: None or Saving Throw: X (Harmless). The latter designates that the spell is harmless to the recipient, so there is no save involved. Since Dimension Hop has no such descriptor, I would say that casting Dimension Hop on yourself triggers a Will save to resist, whether you want to resist it or not. Unless, of course, you can find other potentially beneficial spells that don't follow the same pattern that I stated above. Let me know if you find any. I disagree here... and point to the Plane Shift spell as my argument. Admittedly, there are only a few spells that can be used both offensively and beneficially, but Dimension Hop and Plane Shift are such spells. You can use them either on yourself to get where you want or you can use them on an enemy to get them where you want (generally a not-so-nice place). Plane Shift has the "Will Negates" description, but it also states that you can move yourself with it. A spell will have the "(harmless)" descriptor if it can't be used in a detrimental manner (such as buff spells). Any spell that can potentially be detrimental lists saves as any normal spell. However, some spells can still be used in beneficial manners as well. Other examples of such spells include "Polymorph any Object", "Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere" or "Silence".
Jaxgaret 08-23-07, 06:14 PM	I disagree here... and point to the Plane Shift spell as my argument. Admittedly, there are only a few spells that can be used both offensively and beneficially, but Dimension Hop and Plane Shift are such spells. You can use them either on yourself to get where you want or you can use them on an enemy to get them where you want (generally a not-so-nice place). Plane Shift has the "Will Negates" description, but it also states that you can move yourself with it. A spell will have the "(harmless)" descriptor if it can't be used in a detrimental manner (such as buff spells). Any spell that can potentially be detrimental lists saves as any normal spell. However, some spells can still be used in beneficial manners as well. Other examples of such spells include "Polymorph any Object", "Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere" or "Silence". Except for Plane Shift, none of those spells follow the same pattern of a spell that can be either beneficial or not, are Touch spells, and are Saving Throw: X negates. And Plane Shift says right in the text that "you move yourself or another creature". Dimension Hop has no such text. Look a little harder, please - I really would like to know if I am right or not. If you read my post again, I didn't say "I am unequivocally right". Take a look at the last paragraph.
tvar1 08-23-07, 06:21 PM	You can always decide to fail a save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow). Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
MareltEkiran 08-23-07, 09:41 PM	Also, I believe that the caster himself is always a valid target for his own spells (unless the spell specifies a type of target that he is not, such as Enlarge Person on a Lich). A person can cast Finger of Death on himself and willingly fail his saving throw, if he so chooses (don't really see why, but that's besides the point). It doesn't matter whether the spell is beneficial or not, if the spell can target a creature (range is irrelevant) and the caster is a creature, then the caster can target himself. Combine this with the fact that a creature can always willingly fail a saving throw and I see no reason why Dimension Hop would not work on the caster.
bigbythewise 08-23-07, 10:09 PM	Also, I believe that the caster himself is always a valid target for his own spells (unless the spell specifies a type of target that he is not, such as Enlarge Person on a Lich). Of course you are. For example, you can cast mind affecting *beneficial* spells onself even if you are immune to mind affecting effects or you can cast spells onself even if Immune to magic.
ArcTan 08-24-07, 01:33 AM	Looking at the Dimension Hop spell, it says Saving Throw: Will negates. In every spell that has a range of Touch that you would cast on yourself, it says either Saving Throw: None or Saving Throw: X (Harmless). The latter designates that the spell is harmless to the recipient, so there is no save involved. Since Dimension Hop has no such descriptor, I would say that casting Dimension Hop on yourself triggers a Will save to resist, whether you want to resist it or not. Untrue. Anyone can always choose to fail a saving throw voluntarily. Unless, of course, you can find other potentially beneficial spells that don't follow the same pattern that I stated above. Let me know if you find any. Enlarge person. Inflict light wounds (on your Undead troops, or if you're a Lich). Plane shift. (I assume you do want to leave the Abyss and go back home?) There are others. Any time it's situational whether or not something would be positive (some people don't want to be enlarged, some people get hurt by negative energy rather than healed by it, sometimes you *do* want to go back from the Abyss to the Prime but sometimes the Slaad you're touching doesn't want to go from Limbo to Mechanus) then it's simply a Will save rather than Will (harmless) or whatever. That's because if you yourself know that *in this situation* it's harmless, you can choose to fail the save.
ArcTan 08-24-07, 01:34 AM	Of course you are. For example, you can cast mind affecting *beneficial* spells onself even if you are immune to mind affecting effects or you can cast spells onself even if Immune to magic. ...Um, no, you can't. Otherwise the fact that Warforged Juggernauts from Eberron are immune to healing magic would make no sense.
Jaxgaret 08-24-07, 02:24 AM	You can always decide to fail a save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow). Untrue. Anyone can always choose to fail a saving throw voluntarily. Enlarge person. Inflict light wounds (on your Undead troops, or if you're a Lich). Plane shift. (I assume you do want to leave the Abyss and go back home?) There are others. Any time it's situational whether or not something would be positive (some people don't want to be enlarged, some people get hurt by negative energy rather than healed by it, sometimes you *do* want to go back from the Abyss to the Prime but sometimes the Slaad you're touching doesn't want to go from Limbo to Mechanus) then it's simply a Will save rather than Will (harmless) or whatever. That's because if you yourself know that *in this situation* it's harmless, you can choose to fail the save. I knew about the rule, thank you. I was really just playing Devil's Advocate - of course you can fail a save voluntarily whenever you want. I really wanted to know if I could disprove the people who were saying that "Dimension Hop can't possibly work that way!". Enlarge Person is evidence enough that Dimension Hop should work perfectly well as a personal travel spell. They follow the exact same text structure, so if you ban Dimension Hop from working as a personal spell you must also ban Enlarge Person from working as a personal spell - which is ridiculous, obviously.
Platstud 08-24-07, 08:57 AM	...Um, no, you can't. Otherwise the fact that Warforged Juggernauts from Eberron are immune to healing magic would make no sense. I may be mistaken as I don't have my books here, but I don't think the Warforged Juggernaut is so much immune to healing spells; rather, I think that healing magic just doesn't affect him as he isn't the right type of target for it. Sort of the way a brick wall is immune to healing spells.
ArcTan 08-24-07, 02:22 PM	I may be mistaken as I don't have my books here, but I don't think the Warforged Juggernaut is so much immune to healing spells; rather, I think that healing magic just doesn't affect him as he isn't the right type of target for it. Sort of the way a brick wall is immune to healing spells. Yes, but this relationship is expressed in the form "The Warforged Juggernaut becomes immune to all spells of the healing subschool". In other words, the word "immune" means it CAN'T affect you, not just that you can choose to have it not affect you.
yrogerg 08-24-07, 02:38 PM	I may be mistaken as I don't have my books here, but I don't think the Warforged Juggernaut is so much immune to healing spells; rather, I think that healing magic just doesn't affect him as he isn't the right type of target for it. Sort of the way a brick wall is immune to healing spells. Err, no. They gain immunity to healing as part of a class ability, and it's immunity that works the same way immunity is ever presented as working in the rules. It would, as Arctan pointed out, really defeat the purpose of this aspect of the class ability if casting the spells yourself allowed you to circumvent it. Also, y'know, it's not what the rules say. You can't choose not to be immune to things you're immune to, even if you're the one casting the spells. The only thing that works even remotely like this is SR, in that they can voluntarily lower their spell resistance for 1 round as a standard action.
bigbythewise 08-26-07, 10:13 PM	...Um, no, you can't. Otherwise the fact that Warforged Juggernauts from Eberron are immune to healing magic would make no sense. You're right Arctan. I should have specified that more closely. It depends on what of type is the immunity. If it's Supernatural, Extraordinary, granted from a spell, by nature of the creature and its physiology and soo on. For example: A skeleton can't critically hit itself (have no vital organs) but a Lich can Polymorph itself even if he has immunity to polymorphing. Further, a Golem can use Spells and Spell-like abilities onself even if he has Immunity to magic and you can cast Heroism onself under Mind Blank.
Johnny_Angel 08-26-07, 10:26 PM	Looking at the Dimension Hop spell, it says Saving Throw: Will negates. In every spell that has a range of Touch that you would cast on yourself, it says either Saving Throw: None or Saving Throw: X (Harmless). The latter designates that the spell is harmless to the recipient, so there is no save involved. Since Dimension Hop has no such descriptor, I would say that casting Dimension Hop on yourself triggers a Will save to resist, whether you want to resist it or not. Unless, of course, you can find other potentially beneficial spells that don't follow the same pattern that I stated above. Let me know if you find any. You can voluntarily choose to fail a save.
Jaxgaret 08-26-07, 11:24 PM	You can voluntarily choose to fail a save. Please read threads before you post, this has already been gone over: You can always decide to fail a save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow). Untrue. Anyone can always choose to fail a saving throw voluntarily. I knew about the rule, thank you. I was really just playing Devil's Advocate - of course you can fail a save voluntarily whenever you want. I really wanted to know if I could disprove the people who were saying that "Dimension Hop can't possibly work that way!". Enlarge Person is evidence enough that Dimension Hop should work perfectly well as a personal travel spell. They follow the exact same text structure, so if you ban Dimension Hop from working as a personal spell you must also ban Enlarge Person from working as a personal spell - which is ridiculous, obviously.
yrogerg 08-26-07, 11:40 PM	You're right Arctan. I should have specified that more closely. It depends on what of type is the immunity. If it's Supernatural, Extraordinary, granted from a spell, by nature of the creature and its physiology and soo on. For example: A skeleton can't critically hit itself (have no vital organs) but a Lich can Polymorph itself even if he has immunity to polymorphing. Further, a Golem can use Spells and Spell-like abilities onself even if he has Immunity to magic and you can cast Heroism onself under Mind Blank. Source? I'm pretty sure this is all completely untrue, and I have no idea where you're getting this information from.
ArcTan 08-27-07, 04:50 AM	You're right Arctan. I should have specified that more closely. It depends on what of type is the immunity. If it's Supernatural, Extraordinary, granted from a spell, by nature of the creature and its physiology and soo on. The rules don't really specify any difference between these kinds of immunity. The word "immunity" just has one definition in the core rules. For example: A skeleton can't critically hit itself (have no vital organs) but a Lich can Polymorph itself even if he has immunity to polymorphing. Further, a Golem can use Spells and Spell-like abilities onself even if he has Immunity to magic and you can cast Heroism onself under Mind Blank. Can you please provide a citation for this concept? Because I've never seen it, nor do I believe it. Immunity is immunity to immunity. The only difference between Immunity to X (Su) and Immunity to Y (Ex) is that the latter doesn't go away in an AMF. The most you can say is that you treat "Immunity to Magic" as though it were "infinite Spell Resistance", but that's more a convention to help you understand what works on Immunity to Magic (SR: Yes spells) and what doesn't than anything else. I've *never* seen anything that implied to me that Immunity to Magic was intended to *actually be* infinite SR, with the same ability to lower and raise it at will. In any case, none of that applies to, say, Immunity to Mind-Affecting Effects, which has no relationship to SR whatsoever.
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 02:43 PM	The rules don't really specify any difference between these kinds of immunity. The word "immunity" just has one definition in the core rules. Can you please provide a citation for this concept? Because I've never seen it, nor do I believe it. The most you can say is that you treat "Immunity to Magic" as though it were "infinite Spell Resistance", but that's more a convention to help you understand what works on Immunity to Magic (SR: Yes spells) and what doesn't than anything else. I've *never* seen anything that implied to me that Immunity to Magic was intended to *actually be* infinite SR, with the same ability to lower and raise it at will. In any case, none of that applies to, say, Immunity to Mind-Affecting Effects, which has no relationship to SR whatsoever. Look up the Monster Manual (Golem, Lich) and 3.5 FAQs about Golem's spell immunity. Further. A Colossus (ELH) constantly generates AMF as Extraordinary ability and its Supernatural attacks and abilities are not suppressed by its own AMF field. Not every immunity or protection is absolute. Immunity is immunity to immunity. The only difference between Immunity to X (Su) and Immunity to Y (Ex) is that the latter doesn't go away in an AMF.. Yes. One is magical and the other isn't. One *can* be negated and ineffective (and doesn't really matter how) and the other *never* can be. So, "ooh, my immunity is not an immunity now". There is difference.
ArcTan 08-27-07, 02:55 PM	Look up the Monster Manual (Golem, Lich) and 3.5 FAQs about Golem's spell immunity. Spell Immunity A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity. *shrug* All right, I'll bite and say that if Immunity to Magic works *exactly* as Spell Resistance, then it means you can affect yourself with your own spells. Not that Golems have spells in the first place, so this is mostly moot. However, this is not true for any *other* kind of immunity that I can see. Immunity to Mind-Affecting doesn't act like SR, *whichever* source it comes from, nor does Immunity to Critical Hits (even if you're getting it from a magical source, like armor of fortification), or anything else. FWIW, there is contradictory text about this -- the Golem's own entry says that its Immunity to Magic trumps all spells *and* supernatural effects, while the DMG's glossary entry for Immunity to Magic instead defines it as infinite SR (meaning it *never* blocks (Su) abilities). I think this is one of those instances of an incomplete updating from 3.0 to 3.5. (I actually like the 3.0 ruling better, as headache-inducing as it is.) Further. A Colossus (ELH) constantly generates AMF as Extraordinary ability and its Supernatural attacks and abilities are not suppressed by its own AMF field. Not every immunity or protection is absolute. Um, this is because the Colossus' AMF *explicitly says* it makes an exception for the Colossus' own (Su) abilities, *not* because of any general rule about how (Su) and (Ex) abilities interact.
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 03:04 PM	FAQ: Note that a golem cannot voluntarily lower its magic immunity so that it can receive a harmless spell, but a golem’s magic immunity does not extend to magic the golem uses on itself (just as spell resistance doesn’t apply to such effects). A golem can make use of any magic item that works continuously or is use activated. I'am asking you. *Why* have Undead immunity to mind affecting effects?
ArcTan 08-27-07, 03:05 PM	Yes. One is magical and the other isn't. One *can* be negated and ineffective (and doesn't really matter how) and the other *never* can be. So, "ooh, my immunity is not an immunity now". There is difference. One can be negated by an antimagic field. Possibly also by the Truenamer's Utterance that negates or strips a (Su) ability (although since Truenamer's Utterances are themselves subject to spell resistance, IIRC, this doesn't work on a Golem). Otherwise, no, I can't think of any way you can negate a (Su) ability. Someone who's Immune to Mind-Affecting as a (Su) ability is no longer Immune to Mind-Affecting if he goes inside an AMF, but then you can't cast mind-affecting spells on him either. It's pretty clear. There is no general rule that (Su) abilities are abilities the owner can turn off. There's *certainly* no general rule that (Su) abilities are abilities that function all the time but act like they don't exist when the owner would find it useful, which is what you're actually saying.
ArcTan 08-27-07, 03:07 PM	Note that a golem cannot voluntarily lower its magic immunity so that it can receive a harmless spell, but a golem’s magic immunity does not extend to magic the golem uses on itself (just as spell resistance doesn’t apply to such effects). A golem can make use of any magic item that works continuously or is use activated. Yes, I caught that, and edited my post to match. Still means nothing regarding other forms of immunity.
ArcTan 08-27-07, 03:10 PM	By the way, bigbythewise, I do generally think a lot of the things the FAQ says aren't worth the paper they're printed on. I would also like to point out that this (Su) vs. (Ex) thing is moot, for most of the specific examples you've given. Liches, for instance, have immunity to polymorph *as an Extraordinary Ability*, not a (Su) ability, and therefore remain immune to it all the time. Same for the immunity to mind-affecting that all Liches and all Undead possess. I actually don't remember any monsters that have immunity to mind-affecting as a (Su) ability, at all. You can be immune to mind-affecting thanks to mind blank, of course, but the rules for *spells* are pretty clear that spells simply overlap and one spell has the power to make another's effect irrelevant, rather than one spell *overriding* the effect of another. Nothing in the rules says casting heroism on yourself with mind blank up is any different from casting heroism on the Fighter when he has mind blank up.
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 03:18 PM	Yes, I caught that, and edited my post to match. Still means nothing regarding other forms of immunity. From SRD: A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities. You don't need to care about SR if you casting onself, no matter if the SR can be lowered or not. That's why the FAQ is correct. Hey, can you answer my previous question?
ArcTan 08-27-07, 03:21 PM	From SRD: A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities. You don't need to care about SR if you casting onself, no matter if the SR can be lowered or not. That's why the FAQ is correct. If you accept that the FAQ is correct that Immunity to Magic is infinite SR, yes. However, Immunity to Mind-Affecting is *not* and *cannot be* related to SR, in any way. Otherwise it would not work on mind-affecting Supernatural Abilities, which it does. I'm still waiting for any citation that says you can cast heroism on yourself with mind blank up, since mind blank never says, anywhere at all, that it works like Spell Resistance.
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 03:26 PM	I'm still waiting for any citation that says you can cast heroism on yourself with mind blank up, since mind blank never says, anywhere at all, that it works like Spell Resistance. Mind Blank protects you. It doesn't make you immune nor it does make all [mind-affecting] effects irrelevant.
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 03:28 PM	If you accept that the FAQ is correct that Immunity to Magic is infinite SR, yes. This is written in SRD as well. Under monster types and abilities.
ArcTan 08-27-07, 03:31 PM	Mind Blank protects you. It doesn't make you immune nor it does make all [mind-affecting] effects irrelevant. Okay. That's a kind of specious usage of the word "protects" (I fail to see how this is meant to imply the spell has a perfect ability to filter "harmless" from "harmful" effects), but I don't want to argue about this in particular. What about the Lich casting heroism on himself? How do you justify that? Remember the Lich is immune to mind-affecting effects as an Extraordinary Ability. And if he weren't, I still want to hear how it being a Supernatural Ability implies he can cast mind-affecting spells on himself.
ArcTan 08-27-07, 03:36 PM	FAQ: Note that a golem cannot voluntarily lower its magic immunity so that it can receive a harmless spell, but a golem’s magic immunity does not extend to magic the golem uses on itself (just as spell resistance doesn’t apply to such effects). A golem can make use of any magic item that works continuously or is use activated. I'am asking you. *Why* have Undead immunity to mind affecting effects? What do you want? Flavor or rules? Rules? Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Flavor? Flavor is mutable. I dunno what's true in your campaign world. In mine, I say that because Undead are negative-energy "shadows" or "mockeries" of real living creatures rather than being fully alive themselves, their souls are locked into a certain configuration by the negative energy that keeps them alive. Much as Undead bodies are no longer capable of growing and maturing and aging as living bodies are, Undead minds are no longer capable of changing their attitude or mindset, or being affected by the same emotional and spiritual forces of magic that control the truly living. The Undead are, in the end, dead-but-functional, both outside and inside. Their hearts and souls, like their bodies, are capable of moving and acting but on the inside *dead* -- incapable of real change, incapable of losing old attitudes and habits for new ones, incapable of letting go of obsessions and moving forward into the future. A lot of this comes from Libris Mortis, which says that sentient Undead minds are characterized by a tendency to obsessions, compulsions, and what, in a normal human being, we would call "insanity" -- the capacity to *change their minds*, to feel the pull of compassion or empathy, or even to really understand fear and loathing the way a human feels it is beyond them. This explains why Undead are almost always Evil-aligned -- they've lost the capacity to understand the thoughts and feelings of others, never mind their own. But that's all flavor. Undead are immune to mind-affecting, is the point. It's not a "power" or "shield" they can raise or lower, it's a part of who they are. (Notice that it's a Type feature, and like *all* Type features unless explicitly specified otherwise, it's (Ex) -- it doesn't go away in an AMF.)
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 04:20 PM	Undead are immune to mind affecting effects because they have no INT score, no brain, at least no working.. :) - they're mindless. It's a physiological issue. If you look at the Lich. Lich has INT, so he's not mindless, but still immune. However, he's immune to mind affecting attacks and not effects, because the immunity is not natural but Extraordinary. There is a change, and it seems (by your correct wording) that it doesn't matter what type is it, but he can cast beneficial spells onself now. Even if there isn't any rule which would specifically says which one ability (Ex, Su or whatever) can be "deactivated", there are still these cases which implies that it can be done sometimes. So you should be able to cast Heroism onself even while polymorphed to Undead or under a Veil of Undeath spell for example, because the immunity is not a part of who you are, it's just that "shield" or "power" as you have said.
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 04:31 PM	But that's all flavor. Undead are immune to mind-affecting, is the point. It's not a "power" or "shield" they can raise or lower, it's a part of who they are. (Notice that it's a Type feature, and like *all* Type features unless explicitly specified otherwise, it's (Ex) -- it doesn't go away in an AMF.) I don't think so. If there is no specification (Ex, Su or Sp), then it should be Natural ability - Skeleton's Immunity to Cold or Dragon's Immunity to Fire should be natural abilities and not Ex. edit: Just have read the MM and it seems that i gave bad examples here, but i still think that's the right way.
yrogerg 08-27-07, 07:14 PM	From SRD: A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. *cough* For an entire round as a standard action. It's a little different from lowering one's immunity to mind-affecting and re-raising it as immediate actions while casting a spell in between. Also note that the FAQ states pretty unambiguously that a creature like a Golem *cannot* voluntarily lower their magic immunity. Admittedly, though, it makes it a bit bizarre that they ported over some of the rules of SR, but not all of them.
locustechpriest 08-27-07, 07:56 PM	A couple of things: I actually like the 3.0 ruling better, as headache-inducing as it is. *cough* masochist *cough* So you should be able to cast Heroism oneself even while polymorphed to Undead... You cannot polymorph into an undead creature, the resultant critter must be living. That aside, I read in wonder and anxiously await further discussion.
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 09:01 PM	You cannot polymorph into an undead creature, the resultant critter must be living. I meant that with a Shapechange spell of course, but thanks for nit-pick correction. :)
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 09:18 PM	*cough* For an entire round as a standard action. It's a little different from lowering one's immunity to mind-affecting and re-raising it as immediate actions while casting a spell in between. If you cast a spell onself, you don't need to lower your SR, you just ignore it, there is no action. A Lich can ignore his immunity to mind-affecting (as well as immunity to Polymorph) without any action. A Golem can cast spell effects onself, they simply do not interfere at all with its Magic Immunity, so he need not to care about that.
yrogerg 08-27-07, 09:31 PM	And as a *non* nitpick on the polymorph thing: a Lich can Polymorph itself even if he has immunity to polymorphing. Wrong-O. Even if you think immunity is somehow conditional on whether you benefit from the spell in this case, a Lich can't Polymorph itself. Why? It's not a valid target for Polymorph, anyway: Polymorph Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Polymorph only affects living creatures, period. Now, given this, the simplest reasonable interpretation is that the target line here and the Undead immunity to Polymorph are saying exactly the same thing WRT Undead spellcasters casting polymorph on themselves. They can't. They're Undead, they're not living, and thus are not valid targets and are immune. Everything's saying the same thing. On the other hand, by your interpretation, these two lines are in conflict, as by undead immunities, an undead spellcaster should be a valid target for its own Polymorph spells, because that's what immunity means. Sometimes. By this interpretation, the primary source (the Polymorph spell) supercedes the secondary reference, though, and thus, the line in undead immunities about polymorph isn't *repetitive*, as it was in the first interpretation. It's saying something different, and therefore wrong. Undead aren't immune to Polymorph, and they can't be targeted by Polymorph. I do hope you can see why the latter interpretation gets dizzyingly confusing quickly, and doesn't actually change anything meaningful in this case.
yrogerg 08-27-07, 09:39 PM	Undead are immune to mind affecting effects because they have no INT score, no brain, at least no working.. :) - they're mindless. It's a physiological issue. If you look at the Lich. Lich has INT, so he's not mindless, but still immune. However, he's immune to mind affecting attacks and not effects, because the immunity is not natural but Extraordinary. Ummm, WHAT? Undead Immunities are Undead Immunities. In this case, they're using the SAME EXACT TEXT. And the text clearly states EFFECTS, not attacks. Seriously, this is like saying that some creatures' Light Fortification stops Vorpal, but other creatures' Light Fortification doesn't. Ultimately, this isn't crazy because of the bad things it does to balance, it's crazy because YOU ARE READING OPPOSED MEANINGS IN COMPLETELY IDENTICAL PASSAGES OF TEXT.
yrogerg 08-27-07, 09:44 PM	A couple of things: *cough* masochist *cough* Hey, admittedly, the 3.5 FAQ's interpretation of Golem's magic immunity opens the doors for some ridiculously unbalanced stuff. Top of the list: a creature with magic immunity who is capable of buffing itself. Able to cast buff spells on itself (from items if nothing else), but still immune to Dispel Magic!
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 10:15 PM	yrogerg: Immunities (Ex) Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks. source: d20srd.org
bigbythewise 08-27-07, 10:18 PM	Hey, admittedly, the 3.5 FAQ's interpretation of Golem's magic immunity opens the doors for some ridiculously unbalanced stuff. Top of the list: a creature with magic immunity who is capable of buffing itself. Able to cast buff spells on itself (from items if nothing else), but still immune to Dispel Magic! Dude, Dispel Magic has SR: No. Likewise, you can change your shape with Shapechange spell as a free action.
ArcTan 08-28-07, 12:23 AM	I don't think so. If there is no specification (Ex, Su or Sp), then it should be Natural ability - Skeleton's Immunity to Cold or Dragon's Immunity to Fire should be natural abilities and not Ex. edit: Just have read the MM and it seems that i gave bad examples here, but i still think that's the right way. ...And this matters why? Do "natural abilities" now follow special rules that mean they don't exist when it would be useful to you for them not to?
ArcTan 08-28-07, 12:25 AM	yrogerg: Immunities (Ex) Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks. source: d20srd.org *sigh* Notice, again, that this is a *special* exception called out *specifically* for polymorph, and there is no such exception given for mind-affecting or cold or electricity. There is no text, anywhere in the game, that says Liches can use mind-affecting effects on themselves.
Nirid 08-28-07, 01:25 AM	Ok. My 2cp You can not forfeit a type trait, ever. If I'm a good outsider I can not suppress my aura of good because it's convenient for me to do so. Likewise I could not forsake having dark vision because it was somehow unhealthy for me (other then closing my eyes of course). When it comes down to individual creatures of a type, that's what they are, individuals. They should note any exceptions relevant to their abilities in their stat block. Magic Immunity has been haggled over, but as far as I'm aware that is the only ability where the word immune had so many permutations. If WotC wanted to imply that creatures such as undead could benefit from mind affecting they've had ample time to establish precedent. They haven't, unless of course you can cite source. As for Mind Blank The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. It does not say “if he doesn’t want to be affected” or "unless the subject would like to receive the benefit of whatever spell was being cast." It says they fail. Pretty much clears up "protected".
yrogerg 08-28-07, 06:11 AM	yrogerg: Immunities (Ex) Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks. source: d20srd.org polymorph effects (all lower case), not the Polymorph spell, which you've repeatedly referenced here. They remain invalid targets for the Polymorph spell, just as Outsiders are invalid targets for Hold Person *whether or not* they're also immune to paralysis or mind affecting spells. Also, y'know, whatever. You're mainly asserting a general principle here that non-mindless undead are only immune to the "bad stuff" of mind-affecting abilities and polymorph, despite the fact that other non-mindless undead: Vampires, Morghs, Ghosts, Ghasts, Ghouls, Wights, Specters, Death Knights, etc. etc. etc. all use the standard undead immunities as well. Even if Liches are an exception, this would make them an *exception*, not the rule.
bigbythewise 08-28-07, 04:08 PM	polymorph effects (all lower case), not the Polymorph spell I've *never* talked about a spell. Liches are immune to attacks, so they can cast onself. That's pretty logical. Maybe that this is an exception, so a Golem's MI and Spell resistance (Ex) are exceptions as well.
yrogerg 08-28-07, 05:01 PM	I've *never* talked about a spell.You definitely used the phrase "cast Polymorph" repeatedly in the abovegoing conversation. You can't really cast nonspells. Also note that with the Polymorph errata, there are now phenominally few polymorph effects as defined by the SRD, that aren't actually the Polymorph spell. Everything's now an Alternate Form effect, which Undead were never immune to. Liches are immune to attacks, so they can cast onself. That's pretty logical. Maybe that this is an exception, so a Golem's MI and Spell resistance (Ex) are exceptions as well. But again, the exceptions to a Lich's immunity are spelt out specifically in the stat block, which is a very different situation from, say, a Vampire spellcaster trying to cast Polymorph on itself, or someone trying to cast Heroism on a Ghoul (both examples of Sentient Undead that are completely immune to mind-affecting spells). If you're actually trying to set out to prove that "immunity to X," or even a meaningful subset of "immunity to X" abilities provide an automatic exception for helpful versions of X that are self-inflicted, using the two instances of this where it's specifically called out as your examples kinda does the opposite of proving your point, and rather, makes it fairly clear that if this was automatically the case, these two monsters wouldn't have explicitly (or implictly, until the FAQ decided to run with it) have this spelled out. In this discussion, SR is a complete non-sequitor (it's not immunity in any manner), except insofar as the FAQ decided to interpret a Golem's magic immunity as infinite SR. For example, in the abovegoing conversation, you claim that a Lich is able to ignore its own immunity to Mind-Affecting effects. And, it ends up, on a second's look, they're not! It just happens to be that for the specific Lich creature, a certain interpretation holds that they're not completely immune to Mind-Affecting effects at all, only Mind-Affecting *attacks*! In which case, they're *not* ignoring their own immunity: they're abiding by it.
ArcTan 08-28-07, 11:50 PM	I've *never* talked about a spell. Liches are immune to attacks, so they can cast onself. That's pretty logical. Maybe that this is an exception, so a Golem's MI and Spell resistance (Ex) are exceptions as well. Liches are still Undead. Undead are still immune to mind-affecting *effects*, "attacks" or not "attacks". This is just bad wording. It's no different from the bad wording we just looked at in the Golem entry that seems to imply that Golems are immune to (Su) abilities.
yrogerg 08-28-07, 11:59 PM	Liches are still Undead. Undead are still immune to mind-affecting *effects*, "attacks" or not "attacks". Meh, I would be willing to accept that there's *an* interpretation of the Lich's Immunities entry by which it would override normal undead immunities and narrow the scope of those immunities. However, even then, this would expressly a variation from the normal Undead immunities, and it would expressly be a narrowing of the scope of those immunities, not permission of the Lich to ignore them. That said, I don't think it's an interpretation that I would use, as I'd be inclined to agree that, as written, this would overlap with Undead immunities, not override them.