Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shard Blackwing 03-12-04, 01:45 PM	...Gain class features from other classes? What do you think? Specifically, I'm interested in Timeless body and Animal Companion...
Seeker95 03-12-04, 02:09 PM	Depends on your DM. I say no, unless the class feature is replicated by an existing spell.
Merlion 03-12-04, 02:16 PM	Thats one of the wonky things with Wish...they dont give any guidlines on using it to do things other than basic stuff. Me, I'd probably say yes to those to, especialy if you spent a little XP. Especialy Timeless Body cause stories abound of ageless mages..
CuCulain42 03-12-04, 02:22 PM	I'd watch it though because that's one of those things if you don't word the wish right your DM could seriously twist it.
Beamup 03-12-04, 02:43 PM	Originally posted by CuCulain42 I'd watch it though because that's one of those things if you don't word the wish right your DM could seriously twist it. e.g. "Oh, so you want the Animal Companion ability? Fine, you just lost 4 levels of Wizard and gained 4 of Ranger. You now have an Animal Companion." I'd agree it could be done. But it should involve a large XP penalty or some major twisting since the power level is well beyond the listed examples.
fruits and vegetables 03-12-04, 03:05 PM	Depends on class feature. Get evasion: yes. Get improved evasion: maybe after getting evasion first. Get equivalent level in spell casting: NO.
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-12-04, 03:08 PM	I'm with Seeker on this; the abilities of Wish are clearly stated in the spell description, and if another spell can do it then Wish can as well. Anything else is up to your DM. I wouldn't grant class abilities through Wish. Period. If you want the ability, take the class levels.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-12-04, 03:12 PM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade I wouldn't grant class abilities through Wish. Period. If you want the ability, take the class levels. Well, that's cute and all, but the whole point of using wish is not having to get the class level in the first place. A tentative ruling on my part, subject to possibly future retractation, is that I would allow Wish to give any feature that can be had for 5000xp in a class. (or in other words, if you could spend the cost of wish leveling up in the class with the feature you want, then it's okay).
Merlion 03-12-04, 03:13 PM	Wish is supposed to be the most powerful spell a mage can cast. The listed effects are really quite limited..some class abilities, and certainly additional spellcasting, no. But things like Evasion, Timeless Body etc...that seems right up Wish's ally to me.
Vorpal Warhammer 03-12-04, 03:28 PM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji A tentative ruling on my part, subject to possibly future retractation, is that I would allow Wish to give any feature that can be had for 5000xp in a class. (or in other words, if you could spend the cost of wish leveling up in the class with the feature you want, then it's okay). I don't understand. Do you mean you'd allow one wish to give you the abilities of a 2nd level character in another class?
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-12-04, 03:35 PM	So you'd allow a Wish to grant the Undead Turning ability of a 3rd level cleric? Rage, Bardic music, Trackless step, Animal companion (do you use your levels to determine HD?), bonus feats (fighter), Divine health, Smite evil, Divine grace, Lay on hands, Favored enemy, a Ranger's Combat style, +2d6 sneak attack, spontaneous spellcasting......you'd allow Wish to grant all of these? Where does it stop? If they cast Wish a second time, does the experience limit go up another 5,000xp? So now the caster can acquire the ability to Wild shape 1/day? Ki strike (magic), a paladin's special mount, Uncanny dodge.... If Wish can do one, how about all? I understand that Wish is perhaps the most powerful spell in the game. It can do a lot, and I'd allow it to do a lot without punishing the players (unless it was obviously munchkin), but there are some things that are even beyond its scope. Wish can emulate lower level spells, but unless you can find a lower level spell that permanently grants you a class ability, it's too much to say "Yes, Wish can grant class abilities." As the spell is written, it can't grant class abilities. Incidentally, note that the only permanent effect a Wish grants is an inherent bonus to an ability score.
Merlion 03-12-04, 03:43 PM	As the spell is written, it can't grant class abilities this is incorrect. as written it states that using Wish for purposes other than whats listed is in the purview of the DM. And teh granting of some class abilities, one could argue, would be in line with some of the other things it can do as listed...raising ability scores, creating magic items etc.
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-12-04, 03:57 PM	Wish can't; the DM can. I should have repeated my former disclaimer: "Anything else is up to your DM." Saying that Wish CAN is not accurate, since it's a DM call, and some DMs won't allow it (which difference of ruling can't be done on a spell like, say, mage armor).
fruits and vegetables 03-12-04, 04:59 PM	Or for a slightly more positive spin... Wish can, if the DM lets it. This still leaves it up to the DM as stated in the spell description without the negative tone. But yeah heron, you are correct. Just not as polite.:) Personally though all the DMs i know allow more than what is strictly stated in the book.
Seeker95 03-12-04, 06:06 PM	How I rule wish when it falls outside the guidelines: Is it selfish? The answer is either No. Period or it is Sure. But *I* Set the price. Is it unselfish? The answer is Yes. or In a limited fashion. Wishing for class abilities that are not duplicated by a spell (like many Feats) is going to land you in my No-zone. Wishing that the storeroom of the village just pillaged by a horde of ogres that you failed to stop in time be filled with a year supply of dried foods? Sure. Wishing that all the criminals in the world be safely behind bars? Either the closest criminal will end up in jail, or the criminals end up in jails, but the doors aren't locked. Wish wisely. Make it selfish and you had better stick to the guidelines. Note: Selfish means "for your self" regardless of your reasons.
mbfu3k 03-12-04, 07:52 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 How I rule wish when it falls outside the guidelines: Is it selfish? The answer is either No. Period or it is Sure. But *I* Set the price. Is it unselfish? The answer is Yes. or In a limited fashion. This would seem reasonable guidelines for Miracle, especially when cast by a good cleric. For Wish, however, it makes no sense (to me). It goes against the whole idea of a wizard casting his spells through personal power and force of will. Where would selfishness enter into that? And who, exactly, would be enforcing the selflessness of the spell? The wizard's patron deity? What if the wizard has no patron deity? And even if he does, why should he have to get said deity's permission to work his own will? He's not a cleric, so he should only have his own conscience to answer to... And, of course, the amount of XP he can afford to burn. A Wish being "too powerful," simply means that, as requested, it would require more XP than the character has available. However, the spell would still attempt to mold reality to fulfill the Wish whenever possible. In order to do so within the bounds of the available XP, it would simply incorporate "disadvantages," in the form of a twisted or warped Wish. While I agree that many class features would be to powerful to be granted by Wish, I believe it should be a function of game balance. In general, I would allow Wish to grant most (but not all; it would be decided on a case-by-case basis) low-level (ie, 1st or 2nd) non-spellcasting class features, for an appropriate XP cost. Most high-level class features would be out of reach, though I don't think Timeless Body is game imbalancing enough to make it infeasible. The upshot? Personally, I would grant the OP's Wishes, with an appropriate XP cost. If he's not the one paying the XP, the Timeless Body would become iffy and possibly twisted.
Harsk 03-13-04, 12:36 AM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade Wish can't; the DM can. I should have repeated my former disclaimer: "Anything else is up to your DM." Saying that Wish CAN is not accurate, since it's a DM call, and some DMs won't allow it (which difference of ruling can't be done on a spell like, say, mage armor). If some DMs won't allow it, it follows that some DMs will, and in those cases, Wish most definitely can produce the desired effect. Technically, you're just invoking rule zero, which applies to every spell - not just Wish. If the DM wants to change how mage armor works, then s/he can do so. If the DM wants to allow PCs to wish for things that aren't specifically listed in the text of the spell, then s/he can do so. Any spell is technically limited by what the DM allows it to do, so saying that Wish can't do something just because it requires DM fiat is something of a non sequitur. Any spell having any effect is subject to DM fiat. Rule zero. In the end, if the DM decides that you can wish for class abilities, then the Wish spell has the power to grant class abilities. If the DM decides it doesn't, then it doesn't. Saying that Wish cannot do something is clearly inaccurate, based on my extension of your logic in the first paragraph above. The spell is simply a game mechanic, which was purposely left vague so that it can potentially do a lot of different things. I think what it comes down to is that Wish can grant class abilities, if the DM decides to allow it. But there's no guarantee that the spell will grant class abilities (I think that's what you were trying to say). It is technically possible, but not guaranteed - a design decision I like, since it lets each DM determine the power of the spell in his/her own campaign. ~Harsk
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-13-04, 01:32 AM	Originally posted by Harsk But there's no guarantee that the spell will grant class abilities (I think that's what you were trying to say). Succinctly and accurately stated. :)
Luminosity 03-13-04, 04:04 AM	Technically, you're just invoking rule zero, which applies to every spell - not just Wish. If the DM wants to change how mage armor works, then s/he can do so. If the DM wants to allow PCs to wish for things that aren't specifically listed in the text of the spell, then s/he can do so. Any spell is technically limited by what the DM allows it to do, so saying that Wish can't do something just because it requires DM fiat is something of a non sequitur. Any spell having any effect is subject to DM fiat. Rule zero. So pure-classed barbarians can cast Miracle and dragons aren't in D&D. Good call there. If someone asks if Wish can do something, he or she is asking if it can do it according to the guidelines in the book, otherwise it is an irrelevent question. You're denying a definition to the term "can" and invalidating its meaning. If the assumption behind the question were "Will my DM let me do this?", then the OP wouldn't have posted his question here; he or she would have asked his/her DM. Allowing wish to grant 5000xp worth of class level abilities is a bit overboard in my opinion. Items like Divine Grace require levels of Paladin because the power is divine in nature, a reward for the Paladin's goodness. In addition, this allows the caster of Wish to dance around multiclass rules and gain xp as a lower level character. I do not see that as an acceptible trade.
Seeker95 03-13-04, 08:01 AM	Originally posted by mbfu3k This would seem reasonable guidelines for Miracle, especially when cast by a good cleric. For Wish, however, it makes no sense (to me). It goes against the whole idea of a wizard casting his spells through personal power and force of will. Where would selfishness enter into that? And who, exactly, would be enforcing the selflessness of the spell? The wizard's patron deity? What if the wizard has no patron deity? And even if he does, why should he have to get said deity's permission to work his own will?Silly rabbit. The DM enforces it. It is the deity known as the Dungeon Master's whose permission you must get to have an unorthodox wish work. And why should he have to get the DM's permission? Simply because it is the DM that judges whether unorthodox wishes will disrupt the balance of the game. If you want to be a power-hungry player who wants to make a wish outside the parameters fully detailed in the wish spell, then expect to have unintended or unforeseen consequences. When it comes to a battle of wills between a player and the DM, the DM's will wins out. Wishing for yourself? Stick to the guidelines, or at least stay *within them*.
Merlion 03-13-04, 11:50 AM	Well, considering the comparitively narrow guidlines, and weighing them against the concept of a wish, I still disagree. And I think its a matter of degrees. I dont think its saying, this is all you can do unless you happen to talk you DM into it....I think its saying thease are the things you can do easily and with little or no risk...and I think its saying to DMs, this is what you can allow it to do with no worries, but other things are definitly possible. I think wishing for something like Evasion, Fast Movement, Ucanny Dodge etc should be possible with a little extra cost. Now wishing to be immortal, or invulnerable to weapons or something like that...thats where the warped wish comes in.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-13-04, 12:14 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer I don't understand. Do you mean you'd allow one wish to give you the abilities of a 2nd level character in another class? No. I'd allow one wish to give *one* ability that a character of 1st or 2nd level of another class would get. If you wanted Timeless Body, for instance, you'd have to stack up enough wishes to cover the xp-equivalent of being whatever level monk to get Timeless Body.
Archtyrant Terevoth 03-13-04, 04:49 PM	Well, the best way to analyze this would be to calculate the value of a slotless item that does the same thing and then consider if wish can create such an item, and work from there. For evasion, we have the ring of evasion, just double the cost (because it'd be slotless) and there you go. For something scaling, like a familiar or animal companion, I'd probably have to say no. You really can't adequately put a price on a scaling companion. It'd be ok to wish for a static creature, and then possibly use future wishes to buff it up, but tying the creature's power to your wizard levels would be a bit much. Timeless body is a bit tougher as the immunity to magical aging is something unprecedented in terms of magical items.
Merlion 03-13-04, 04:52 PM	And almost irrelevent. How many magical aging effects can you name from PH, DMG, and MM?
Finwe 03-13-04, 05:19 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Silly rabbit. The DM enforces it. It is the deity known as the Dungeon Master's whose permission you must get to have an unorthodox wish work. And why should he have to get the DM's permission? Simply because it is the DM that judges whether unorthodox wishes will disrupt the balance of the game. If you want to be a power-hungry player who wants to make a wish outside the parameters fully detailed in the wish spell, then expect to have unintended or unforeseen consequences. When it comes to a battle of wills between a player and the DM, the DM's will wins out. Wishing for yourself? Stick to the guidelines, or at least stay *within them*. The whole point of his post was to ask why a WIZARD spell would have moral/ethical guideline, when it doesn't have the lawful or good descriptor. Would a chaotic evil wizard really be able to use wish to a greater effect just because he made an unselfish wish? Your wish guidelines make no sense, Seeker, but the would work great if it was miracle cast by a good cleric with a good deity, or something like that. :rolleyes: On the topic of wish granting class abilities: abilities gained from 1st-2nd level would be fair game, although some I might moderate, but anything that comes after 2nd level will require either a big ZP sacrifice, or the wish will be twisted (severity relative to how out of hand the wish was. I.E. a wizard wishing for the ability to cast 1st levle ranger spells might suddenly find himself loding an additional 7,000 or so XP, but one wishing for perfect self or something along those lines would find themselves actually becoming that class, or the spell simply failing, or the ability costing a LOT of extra XP and being only temporary as well).
CuCulain42 03-13-04, 06:02 PM	The point is: 3.5 PHB pg 302 "You may try to use a wish to produce effects greater than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such wishes gives the DM the opportunity to fulfill you request without fullfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirablefulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)" Which in my mid means you CAN wish for ANYTHING but if it is something that the DM rules cannot be accomplished with wish it get perverted or partial effects."You recieve timeless body but it lasts only a day." or "You are now a 17th level Monk please make adjustments to your chacter sheet to reflect this, oh by the way you can't seem to remember how to cast spells and your spell book now looks like it was written in gibberish." or even "Your wish was granted and suddenly you feel strange as if the entire universe was twisting, you feel like the effects of the wish just were stripped from you by some Higer Power, please deduct 5000xp." Regardless of effect that 5000XP is gone. No offence to you Seeker but nothing in the spell desciption implies any morality in the casting of the spell. By the description of the spell you can try to do pretty much anything but it is up to the DM to decide how the wish is fullfilled. So the simple answer to the original question is yes, you can use a wish to (fill in the blank here) BUT do not expect to be happy with the results.
Seeker95 03-13-04, 08:18 PM	Originally posted by Finwe The whole point of his post was to ask why a WIZARD spell would have moral/ethical guideline, when it doesn't have the lawful or good descriptor. Would a chaotic evil wizard really be able to use wish to a greater effect just because he made an unselfish wish? Your wish guidelines make no sense, Seeker, but the would work great if it was miracle cast by a good cleric with a good deity, or something like that. Finwe, you've missed something about why I impose my rulings. It has nothing to do with morality, so foget your completely irrelevent comparison of wish and miracle and talk about deities. I use selfish-versus-unselfish differentiation to prevent game balance abuses. Many players are Power-Hungry Rule Abusers*(tm) who take every opportunity to screw with the balance in a game. I prevent these same PHuRAs from using wish to do this by restricting power grabs. If you the player make a wish for something outside the guidelines, it had better be for a reason other than a Power-Hungry Rule Abuse. The easiest way to do this is to differentiate between over-powered-but-creative solutions to problems (an unselfish wish) and over-powered-and-abusive make-my-character-more-powerful wishes. *Not every player. Just the ones who consistently ask if they can wish for more than the guidelines provide, or otherwise attempt to grab more power than game balance guidelines provide. Nor do I mean to imply that the original question asker is among this group.
Finwe 03-13-04, 08:43 PM	A player who's character is paranoid about getting fireballed should be able to wish to have evasion, whether or not it is "selfish" or not. Wish should be regulated by whether or not the CHARCTER, not the player, would actually ask/could ask for the wish, and whether or not it is feasible by the wish spell (which is the DM's call). Slefish or unselfish should have NO BEARING on wish's potential. Take these two examples: A. Kirby the elven wizard is obseesed with becoming as quick s he can possibly be. However, one day, the BBEG named Bob (tm) decided to fireball him at random intervals as harrassment. Knowing that one of his rouge friends was sometimes able to completely avoid fireballs, Kirby wishes to be able to do that too. Presto, he now has evasion. It may have been a "selfish" wish, but it had a very good in character reason for it. B. Minimax the sorcerer etraordinare decides that he wants to age a little, but not get any less strong or less healthy. Thus he wishes for timeless body which he suddenly knew existed because of a minor artifact that he found in the temple of doughnut evil called the "Player's handbook." Suddenly, he finds that his body IS timeless! he is in temporal stasis! So much for the minimax.... Do you consider wishing for arms so that you can suply an army to be unselfish, and thus more likely to be feasible than wishing for an adamantine dagger with gems enough to make it be worth 15,001 gp because that is selfish (and what's more, it can not be done with spells :rolleyes: )? Maybe you've just had bad experiences with your players....
William Coburn 03-13-04, 10:55 PM	Well class ablities should be handled on a wish by wish basis. Timless Body is more or less a flavor ablity with really no use except in the longest campagins, so go on ahead. Anyway Timeless body has always been a clasic thing to wish for (the smart version of eternal youth), althogh I wouldn't simply wish for Tmeles Body, but instead something akin to, "halt the ravenges of time upon my self" Now wishing for a life-span long enogh to live with your elven wife would be a seperate wish (take it second not first). Whereas Animal Companions are more comonly used and a simlar ablity (yes a weaker version but still) is already on the Wiz/Sor ablitiy list, Summon Familar, so no.
Lago AM3P 03-13-04, 11:29 PM	I'd allow it. Timeless body has virtually no effect on the game world, and even if you're in a position to have the campaing span 60 or MORE years where it would not even become an issue, there are spells in the game that would make you not care. At all. The animal companion is considerably weaker than it's counterpart, polymorph any object, which is an 8th level spell that lets you create things from NOTHING. These things can even be celestials and golems. And, why, look, polymorph any object is within the bounds of wish. Yes, polymorph any object can be dispelled, but frankly, this is a really bad use of a wish. I'd personally let these two wishes be combined and ask if they want anything else.
Lago AM3P 03-13-04, 11:31 PM	So, the moral of this story is, look around in the damn book to see if there are earlier-level spell effects that will duplicate the spell for FREE. If there are, then there's no need at all to get your panties in a bunch, as actual wishes actually cost a huge wad of experiences.
Harsk 03-14-04, 12:27 AM	Originally posted by Luminosity So pure-classed barbarians can cast Miracle and dragons aren't in D&D. Good call there. In your game world, if single-class barbarians can cast Miracle and there are no dragons, who am I to question how you run your game? What matters is that you and your players are having fun, not that you're following the narrowest possible interpretation of the rules. The most important rule is, and always has been, rule zero. If the assumption behind the question were "Will my DM let me do this?", then the OP wouldn't have posted his question here; he or she would have asked his/her DM. I rather assumed that the question came about after a discussion between player(s) & DM, and one or the other decided to consult the community here on the boards for opinions. You seem to imply that the OP never read the DMG, or wouldn't have answered a question whose answer was in the printed guidelines. As I said before, the rules are intentionally vague to allow for DM latitude in interpretation. Asking for other opinions is perfectly valid, and what I believe the OP did. You'll note that I never said any of these things should be done with the spell - just that if the DM decided to allow it, that they could be done. I also think some or most of the things that might be allowed if a DM chose to allow wishing for class abilities would be beyond what Wish should be allowed to do. But that wasn't the question. The question was whether the spell could create the effects, and the answer to that is, "Yes, if the DM says so." It's 9th-level magic, after all. Virtually anything is possible. It's just how the universe (DM) chooses to bring that possibility into reality. :) ~Harsk
Luminosity 03-14-04, 02:32 AM	Yeah, that's just wrong. I can't say any more than I've already said, and you appear to not have understood my meaning, so I'll have to leave you in ignorance. I blame mysef for not speaking your language, so to speak.
Seeker95 03-14-04, 07:52 AM	Finwe, your hang-up on the term selfish is your problem. We aren't disagreeing on case-by-case bases, but you have an inherent desire to disagree with the general approach. I apologize for not using words that you like. I understand me. My players understand me. I don't need you to understand me.
gino 03-14-04, 09:04 AM	hello everyone, as far as I am concerned, I have a way to trick your wish true : if you cannot have access to the "animal companion" class feature, you can stilll have the "wild cohort" feat from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) he he he voila, first problem solved (you may check the other "wild life" options), and it this seems reasonnable, even banning the prerequisites (it is a wish, not regular training) as for the "timeless body" part, I would not grant it as such : too powerful an ability, plus it's not a low-level one, but why not losing age, and only physical age (= not xp, memory, or whatever...) this way you have to spend many wishes if you want to get time-proof, and the quest is an evergoing one, since the world won't run out of time just my two coppers, hopes this helps (this is what the boards are for)
Lago AM3P 03-14-04, 10:06 AM	too powerful an ability, plus it's not a low-level one, but why not losing age, and only physical age (= not xp, memory, or whatever...) How is this too powerful an ability? There are ways to bypass normal aging, and regardless trying to sit on your ass to rack up stat bonuses hurts the rest of your party as well.
Finwe 03-14-04, 10:14 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Finwe, your hang-up on the term selfish is your problem. We aren't disagreeing on case-by-case bases, but you have an inherent desire to disagree with the general approach. I apologize for not using words that you like. I understand me. My players understand me. I don't need you to understand me. Words that I dont like? More like words that are a little too ambiguous. The is not to show people something (many of whom don't have english as their first language), and expect them to be able to understand it, and then when your post's last of lucidity makes what you were trying to say look like something else, say that only poeple on your end have to be able to understand you. The point of posting is so that people can understant you, not so that you can understand you.
Kyuketsukiouji 03-14-04, 10:35 AM	I too was wondering what being "selfish" has to do with it. It sounds a lot to me as if you're not being impartial when it comes to adjucating wishes, which is definitely not a good things. Or do your evil NPC mages who cast wishes have to be unselfish about theirs too? Wishes should be adjucated by the numbers, and DMs should try to be as impartial about it as possible.
Archtyrant Terevoth 03-14-04, 11:19 AM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P How is this too powerful an ability? There are ways to bypass normal aging, and regardless trying to sit on your ass to rack up stat bonuses hurts the rest of your party as well. The immunity to magical aging is really the powerful part of it, and that's only powerful if you use a lot of 3rd party monsters that use magical aging effects. Quite simply Timeless body is one of the only ways to get immunity to magical aging, and that can be significant or worthless depending on how often the situation comes up. Because it's such an unused core mechanic I think the value of the ability is up to each DM to decide. As for the party waiting around to get the aging bonuses, I think that reeks of metagaming so bad it deserves several XP penalties. And unless your group is a total bunch of metagamers, your PCs won't agree to do so. They are going to go off adventuring on their own instead of settling down in semipermanent retirement so the wizard can get a few minor stat bonuses.
Merlion 03-14-04, 11:22 AM	He's a DM who's had bad experiences with power-gamey players, and now tends to jump just a little to quickly to the conclusion that things have a power-gaming selfpish reason behind them. So he's decided not to let Wish grant anything that increases a PC's power that isnt specficaly mentioned in the descreption. And thats fine. But, as written, Wish states that you can Wish for anything, but the DM has the power to veto or warp the wish. Although I've always felt that was only meant to be used in cases where the mage was doing something completely outrageous...like wishing to be invulnerable, or to have full access to the cleric spell list.
ASCIISkull 03-14-04, 12:57 PM	For protection vs. aging, become a 1 HD fey or something.
Lago AM3P 03-14-04, 02:51 PM	Aging is just a bad core mechanic to use. It should never be an irreversable attack the DM inflicts upon players, because not only will it have virtually no effect on the gaming world (and it's bypassable at any rate) but it also has the unfortunate side effect of making your characters LESS LIKE HOW YOU WANT TO PLAY THEM. Aging is like a mechanic that would make your character's gut permanently and irrevocably bulge out past their pants or changing everyone into horny drow bimbos. So, quite frankly, anything that bypasses the 'make your character less how you want him to be yet with no effect on the game system' paradigm that 2E often inflicted on us is okay by me. It really is. Otherwise, you could get into using reincarnate or miracle or polymorph to avoid these unfortunate effects. Which is not outside the means of 17+ level players.-
The Hanged Man 03-14-04, 02:57 PM	Has anybody, anywhere, really had fun in a campaign where aging was actually an important mechanic, instead of an aftershot?
Seeker95 03-14-04, 04:15 PM	Originally posted by The Hanged Man Has anybody, anywhere, really had fun in a campaign where aging was actually an important mechanic, instead of an aftershot? Not countering THM's comments at all. Only adding to them: Has anybody, anywhere, really had a campaign where aging was actually an important mechanic? (Fun or not)
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-14-04, 10:15 PM	I'd do it if you gave something up. Possibly a feat or a class feature. Maybe loose 2 points of Int permanently.
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-14-04, 11:03 PM	Originally posted by Merlion He's a DM who's had bad experiences with power-gamey players, and now tends to jump just a little to quickly to the conclusion that things have a power-gaming selfpish reason behind them. I assume this means you know Seeker IRL, since you wouldn't be so SILLY as to make such observations about a person if you didn't know that they were true.... Originally posted by Merlion So he's decided not to let Wish grant anything that increases a PC's power that isnt specficaly mentioned in the descreption. And thats fine. Glad you realize it. That's fine. As is someone's allowing Wish to grant all 1st-3rd class abilities of every class. Whatever floats your boat. Wish is already the most powerful spell in the game, just from what's listed in the spell description. Why make it more powerful? If you want Evasion, why not buy a ring of evasion? If you want an Animal Companion, why not take the feat (Wild Cohort) or a level of Druid? Originally posted by Merlion Although I've always felt that was only meant to be used in cases where the mage was doing something completely outrageous...like wishing to be invulnerable, or to have full access to the cleric spell list. No, it's applicable to any request that's more powerful than what's listed in the spell description. Gaining class special abilities (regardless of what the abilities are, just the ability to GAIN them) is, IMO, more powerful than what's in the spell description. Notice that you can't even, according to what's listed in the spell description, gain a feat through Wish. Period. And gaining a class ability is more powerful than gaining a feat. But again, whatever floats your boat. If you think it's a good idea, I'm certainly not going to stop you.
Lago AM3P 03-14-04, 11:39 PM	Uh, 'scuse me, but wish is not the most powerful spell in the game. The actual title goes to Astral Projection which, among other things, gives you infinite money and items (and infinite wishes if you're set up for it) and effectively an extra life. I just wanted to point that out.
fruits and vegetables 03-15-04, 12:50 AM	Couple points. -Pretty much everything can be a class ability. There is a class or prestige class for everything. -The ability to cast cleric spells is granting a class ability. Wish says you can do that. So, IMO, it all depends on what it is....IMO. I can agree that it needs much scrutiny by the DM before allowing things outside what is stated is allowed.
Seeker95 03-15-04, 07:08 AM	Originally posted by fruits and vegetables -Pretty much everything can be a class ability. There is a class or prestige class for everything. The ability to cast cleric spells is granting a class ability. Wish says you can do that.No it can't. Wish cannot grant you the ability to cast spells. The wish itself can duplicate a cleric spell. Subtle distinction, but very different in game effects. You can wish for the effects of a cleric spell to have occured. You cannot wish for the ability to cast cleric spells. However, if you did make the latter wish, the DM could easily come up with a lot of different ways to "grant" the request: 1. Remove one level of any single class from the wish maker and replace it with one level of cleric. The condition is that the cleric must then worship the wish granter's deity to access the ability. In many campaigns, this could very easily result in an experience point penalty for multiclassing, and an alignment conflict. Or it could simply result in the character having potential abilities that s/he can never use. 2. The wish granter could twist this in such a way as to turn all arcane spells cast by the wish maker into their divine counterparts (for a time), if the spell has one. In no other way does the outcome of said spells change, and the caster may not even realize it is happening.
Bedevere 03-15-04, 08:27 AM	I'd like to point out that to people playing 3.0 rules, having an animal companion is not exceedingly powerful. It is possible to a 1st level rogue or bard, for instance. IIRC, animal friendship was a 3.0 ed spell used to obtain animal companions, yes? well, since casting from a scroll uses the scrolls caster level, not the casters, it is possible for someone with the UMD skill to obtain the animal companion with a scroll. Even if a DM insisted that you had no effective druid / ranger level, so you could not have an animal companion, a quick UMD check gets you a simulated effective level for an hour. A high level rogue with skill mastery UMD could keep it up indefinitely. Anyway. Just making a point here. There are many things in D&D that seem to be one class only. Similar things exist in many cases that do the job just as well. When it comes down to it, the wish may well not be granting evasion, or whatever, it could be granting a permanent force screen that helps deflect certain area effects, simplified into something following the rules for evasion. I am not arguing the case for or against any specific use of wish, just pointing out that inventive use of wishes, and indeed anything in D&D should not be supressed. The game is meant to be about imagination, after all...
fruits and vegetables 03-15-04, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 The wish itself can duplicate a cleric spell. You can wish for the effects of a cleric spell to have occured. You cannot wish for the ability to cast cleric spells. I did not mean to complicate the statement. I agree with those comments. My point is that it lets you cast cleric spells, or duplicate cleric spells if you like that wording better, (like i said, i am not trying to twist any statement or use any loophole) which is a class ability. So, it can duplicate class abilities (or maybe duplicate the effects of a class ability for you word nit-pickers:)). Just try your best to use good judgement on what you allow outside what is stated.