Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 06-09-07, 10:33 AM	Versatile spellcaster lets you burn spells to cast a higher level spell that you know. Say I was a 1st level human sorcerer with still spell and versatile spellcaster. Could I burn multiple 1st level spells to cast a still magic missile as a 2nd level spell? Also, would this cover "able to cast Xth level spells" prerequisites?
CantripN 06-09-07, 10:37 AM	Technically, a Metamagicked spell isn't a "higher" level spell (unless you're using Heighten...). You'd be able to cast 2nd level spells at 1st level as a Beguiler or a Warmage, however. As for the second question: Maybe. I allow it.
EvilVegan 06-09-07, 11:40 AM	So you're saying I could use it to cast "Heighten Spell" but not "Still Spell". Odd.
risner 06-09-07, 03:00 PM	1) Versatile spellcaster lets you burn spells to cast a higher level spell that you know. 2) Could I burn multiple 1st level spells to cast a still magic missile as a 2nd level spell? 3) Also, would this cover "able to cast Xth level spells" prerequisites? 4) So you're saying I could use it to cast "Heighten Spell" but not "Still Spell". 1) No, it absolutely does not. 2) No, for the same reason you don't get the bonus spell slots for high INT at 1st level Wizard. 3) No for the reasons given for #1 and #2. 4) Same as #1, #2, #3. I think CantripN took you on your word for #1 and answered it based on #1 being a fact, which it isn't.
CantripN 06-09-07, 04:27 PM	I think CantripN took you on your word for #1 and answered it based on #1 being a fact, which it isn't. Isn't it? Versatile Spellcaster (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Versatile_Spellcaster,all) I agree that Heightened Spells aren't "Known Spells", so can't be used with Versatile Spellcaster as per the RAW; But what's stopping a Beguiler from casting Invisibility at 1st level? Unlike a Sorcerer, a Beguiler has a preset spell-known list, and he starts "knowing" them all. That's even the flavour, for both Beguilers and Warmages (spells instilled in training and you only being able to cast them later...). Also, an Ultimate Magus may know Sorcerer spells of spell levels he can't cast (as a sorcerer). He can still cast those spells using spell slots a level lower with this feat. So I say yes for spells, no for metamagicked spells.
EvilVegan 06-09-07, 06:06 PM	1) No, it absolutely does not. 2) No, for the same reason you don't get the bonus spell slots for high INT at 1st level Wizard. 3) No for the reasons given for #1 and #2. 4) Same as #1, #2, #3. I think CantripN took you on your word for #1 and answered it based on #1 being a fact, which it isn't. #1 is not a reason. And you're wrong. That is word for word what the feat does. #2, wizards get bonus spell slots for high INT based on the spell slots available, the feat does not explicitly state that you must have the spell slot available (as a bonus spell slot does). "...Ability scores ... in addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given level." 3 and 4 continue to be wrong.
risner 06-09-07, 08:22 PM	#1 is not a reason. And you're wrong. That is word for word what the feat does. #2, wizards get bonus spell slots for high INT based on the spell slots available, the feat does not explicitly state that you must have the spell slot available (as a bonus spell slot does). "...Ability scores ... in addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given level." 3 and 4 continue to be wrong. 1) Look, you are misunderstanding the rules. You are wrong, there isn't much point in discussing unless you can produce an Errata or some official source that agrees with you. 2) The feat specifically says you need to cast the spell at the higher level, if you have no 2nd level spell slots, you can't cast a 2nd level spell, period. If you wish to persist in saying you are right, I can show you how you are clearly and undoubtedly wrong. Simply put, Versatile Spellcaster does not allow you to cast a spell (known or otherwise) at a level you can not cast normally. Yes I had read the feat before making my first post here. Providing me a copy of the text of the feat does not help your flaw interpretation. Unlike a Sorcerer, a Beguiler has a preset spell-known list, and he starts "knowing" them all. Go re-read PHB II page 6: "when you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level" In other words, a 1st level Beguiler knows ONLY his first level spells. He does not, in fact, know any 2nd level or higher spells.
Kalarus 06-09-07, 09:50 PM	I'm not going to quote anyone since posts are already displaying a level of agitation so this may be mere repetition. This is the text from the above link and I am assuming it is an accurate reproduction. Bold emphasis is mine: "Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows." Given the example, if you can not cast L3 spells as a Sorcerer, you also do not know any L3 spells. Using metamagic of any kind increases the spell slot used, but does not change the actual level of the spell. Thus a metamagicked L2 spell of any kind, does not become a L3 spell. Thus, the metamagicked L2 spell is not "A L3 spell that you know". Thus, the metamagicked L2 spell does not qualify for this feat. The essential difference lies in a spell being actually level X, and a metamagicked spell using up a slot of spell level X. To clear up the Heighten spell confusion: a Heightened spell is also not a spell of whichever level it is Heigentend to, it is merely treated as such for save DCs. Heighten Spell increases the effective spell level of the spell that it modifies (PHB p. 95), not the actual spell level. So no, Heighten Spell is not an exception to the rule. Is this a clear enough explanation? I feel incoherent due to alcohol. Edit: Understanding this principle should allow you to extrapolate the appropriate answers for your other questions.
CantripN 06-09-07, 10:11 PM	Heh. Figures... Fine, I concede the point about Beguilers/Warmages. But how about the UM, specifically? That's the one I've ruled on in the past... Expanded Spell Knowledge (Ex): At 2nd level, you can select one 0- or 1st-level arcane spell from your spellbook and add it to the list of arcane spells known for a spontaneous casting class, even if you can't yet spontaneously cast spells of that level.(In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn't be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level.) It seems to say you do know the spell, even if you can't cast it.
Kalarus 06-09-07, 10:30 PM	Heh. Figures... Fine, I concede the point about Beguilers/Warmages. But how about the UM, specifically? That's the one I've ruled on in the past... Expanded Spell Knowledge (Ex): At 2nd level, you can select one 0- or 1st-level arcane spell from your spellbook and add it to the list of arcane spells known for a spontaneous casting class, even if you can't yet spontaneously cast spells of that level.(In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn't be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level.) It seems to say you do know the spell, even if you can't cast it. Reading quite literally what this says, you could apparently use Versatile Spellcaster to cast this spell that you know, even though you are not able to cast this spell normally yet. This would seem to be an exception to the general limitations of Versatile Spellcaster. Keep in mind however that this allows you to use Versatile Spellcaster to cast *only* that one spell that you have selected. It is not unbalanced by definition for different abilities to have synergies. It is however unbalanced to infer (wrongly in my opinion) that since you can cast a spell of a level you can't usually cast yet, you can use that higher level spell slot to cast anything you please. In other words, you can use Versatiel Spellcaster to cast that spell and ONLY that spell, you cannot use it to cast a metamagicked spell that happens to be the same level. Expanded Spell Knowledge is meant, in my opinion, to reflect the intimate knowledge you have of that particular chosen spell, not of higher level magic use in general. Thus for this spell alone, the usual rules are bent (if not broken), but for nothing else. By the way, what's an UM?
CantripN 06-09-07, 10:38 PM	By the way, what's an UM? Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3)
Kalarus 06-10-07, 07:50 AM	Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) Ah those, thanks.
SunTzuWarmaster 06-10-07, 08:50 AM	Ask your DM, there are varying opinions here. I would say that casting a spell you know could be a Still <highest level>, because <highest level> is a spell you know temporarily using a higher level slot due to metmagic. Ask your DM.
EvilVegan 06-10-07, 08:55 AM	1) Look, you are misunderstanding the rules. You are wrong, there isn't much point in discussing unless you can produce an Errata or some official source that agrees with you.You keep saying I am wrong as if you have presented anything to show otherwise. You are misunderstanding me. That is what the feat does. The feat lets you cast a spell you know of a higher level by using lower level slots. That isn't the same as saying the rest of my post is absolutely correct. I was just saying that this is what the feat does, and normally it applies to spells you already have access to (such as a 4th level sorcerer or a 1st level sorcerer using 0th level slots to make 1st level spells), but my question wasn't in regards to what it normally does (which is what #1 is about), just if I was finding a new way to get 2nd level spells early. I/He posted: "1) Versatile spellcaster lets you burn spells to cast a higher level spell that you know." You posted: "1) No, it absolutely does not." Just that portion of your argument was not true, the rest of it I had no problem with. . . sort of... 2) The feat specifically says you need to cast the spell at the higher level, if you have no 2nd level spell slots, you can't cast a 2nd level spell, period. It actually doesn't specifically say you have to have spell slots of the said level. The only thing it says about slots is "... spell slots of the same level to cast a spell that you know that is one level higher." It only specifically says you have to cast a spell of the higher level that you know. There are ways to know spells of higher level than you have access to (Ultimate Magus is one). The heighten spell metamagic causes the spell to be a higher level (as opposed to simply requiring a higher level slot). Other metamagics do not, so my initial example was unworkable, but the option is there if used with heighten. Let's pretend and say you're a 4th level sorcerer. "You're a 4th level sorcerer" Now lets say you've got charm person and the heighten spell metamagic feat. "You've got charm person and the heighten spell metamagic feat." What happens when you cast a heightened charm person spell, using a 2nd level spell slot. According to RAW, you are casting a 2nd level spell that you know. Since this is absolutely what the Heighten Spell feat does and absolutely what the Versatile Spellcaster feat does, I'm going to have to say my above question is answered and that it works with heighten spell or any other effect that increases spell level, but not most metamagic. Now if you can show an official source or errata that shows otherwise, please do so. Simply stating "you're wrong, but I don't have to show why you're wrong" won't cut it.
CantripN 06-10-07, 11:09 AM	Problem is this: Metamagicked Spells aren't KNOWN SPELLS. A sorcerer doesn't KNOW Empowered Fireball, nor Heightened Magic Missile; He knows the base spells and the Metamagic feats. THAT is the problem with Heighten Spell. Not the fact that it isn't a higher level spell, but rather that you don't KNOW that spell - you can simply cast it (or can't, as the case may be...).
EvilVegan 06-10-07, 02:58 PM	But you do know it. When you heighten a spell it is a spell of the level you heighten it to. a) You know charm person. b) You have heighten spell. b) When you heighten charm person to 2nd level it is a 2nd level spell. QED you know heightened charm person as a 2nd level spell (and every other level you can heighten it to). You also know it as a 1st level non-heightened spell. You know it. It's 2nd level. You can't cast a spell you don't know. Other metamagics that don't affect spell level are not viable. Side note: Do you think it is over-powered, or are we just arguing semantics at this point?
CantripN 06-10-07, 03:21 PM	Semantics, on my part. I think it's perfectly balanced anyway. I'm not a stickler to RAW in most cases...
EvilVegan 06-10-07, 03:29 PM	Yeah, me neither. I can definitely see it either way and would use it your way if I didn't play higher-powered games. My DM made all metamagic function like heighten, so that's the main reason I was asking. I just like arguing.
Kalarus 06-10-07, 08:12 PM	But you do know it. When you heighten a spell it is a spell of the level you heighten it to. a) You know charm person. b) You have heighten spell. b) When you heighten charm person to 2nd level it is a 2nd level spell. QED you know heightened charm person as a 2nd level spell (and every other level you can heighten it to). You also know it as a 1st level non-heightened spell. You know it. It's 2nd level. You can't cast a spell you don't know. Other metamagics that don't affect spell level are not viable. Side note: Do you think it is over-powered, or are we just arguing semantics at this point? No. You don't know it. There is no such thing as a L2 spell called Heighten Charm Person. Like I said before, Heighten spell increases the effective level of a spell, it does not increase the actual spell level of a spell. Heighten Charm Person is not a level 2 spell. It is a level 1 spell cast from a level 2 slot that causes all effects related to spell level to treat it as a level 2 spell. Similarly a Wizard using Energy Substitution to change a Fireball into a Fireball that does Lightning damage does not create the Lightningball spell. There is in fact such a spell, it is called Scillinating Sphere, I believe it first appeared in Complete Arcane, it certainly appears in the Spell Compendium. A side effect from this is that spell description effects which seem related to damage type but are not in fact related to damage type, are not affected by the metamagic feat. E.g. a Sound Burst substituted to do Fire damage still possibly stuns creatures for 1 round even though the Sonic damage is gone. Metamagic feats do not create new spells, they simply alter existing ones. Incidentally for what you want and what you claim, it cannot be done. You basically wanted to cast a spell as a LX slot without being able to cast level spells of level X. Barring the UM exception, you do not know any L2 spells because you are not of sufficient level to cast any yet. Thus you do not know L2 Heightened Charm Person, even if it *did* exist, because you do not know any L2 spells. Perhaps the FAQ can set a rule precedence here, P38 deals with Metamagic and counterspelling. Can I use my normal 3rd-level fireball to counterspell a fireball spell to which the caster applied a metamagic feat, or would I need to use a version of the spell with the same metamagic feats applied to it? Your normal fireball works just fine to counter a metamagic-affected fireball (and vice versa). As stated on page 170 of the Player’s Handbook, metamagic feats “are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered.” This also applies when using the Improved Counterspell feat (Player’s Handbook, page 95): Only each spell’s original level is used when determining the success of the counterspell attempt. A heightened, maximized fireball still counts only as a 3rd-level spell (both for the caster and the counterspelling character). It is obvious that Metamagicking a spell does not in fact create a new spell that you know, else this would obviously create problems with counterspelling. Thus, for no other intents and purposes either, Metamagicking a spell does not create new spells.
risner 06-10-07, 09:31 PM	Since this is absolutely what the Heighten Spell feat does and absolutely what the Versatile Spellcaster feat does, I'm going to have to say my above question is answered and that it works with heighten spell or any other effect that increases spell level, but not most metamagic. You have a fundamental misunderstand of spell mechanics. You can not cast spells of levels you are unable to cast. If the highest level spell you can cast is level 2, then you can not use any ability to cast a heightened (or any other metamagic effect) at level 3 unless the ability says you can pay the level adjust in a different way (case in point divine metamagic which pays for it in turn attempts.) Even in the case of UM, you may know the 3rd level spell, but without 3rd level slots, you could not make use of Versatile Spellcaster or any other effect to cast it as a 3rd level spell until you gain 3rd level spell slots. Spells effected by metamagic effects take up slots equal to the spell level + the level adjust as if they were spells of the new level, but may or may not actually be spells of that level. They take up the higher levels for example, when making magic items with the metamagic effect built in and other cases. Reference material for you: PHB p170: "If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher." In short, if you can not cast spells of the level in question, then it doesn't matter if you actually know the spell via some unusual trick (like the UM trick to add to spontaneous casters spells known before they are high enough level to add the spell normally.) The problem is that you are running into a situation with this feat (V.S.) where the authors never dreamed someone would interpret the text the way it is being interpreted here, since they assumed the reader would apply all CORE rules to the interpretation (and doing so would prohibit this interpretation.) To prevent this, they would need to put half of the PHB in each feat they write (which isn't a reasonable request.)
EvilVegan 06-11-07, 10:35 AM	No. You don't know it. There is no such thing as a L2 spell called Heighten Charm Person. Like I said before, Heighten spell increases the effective level of a spell, it does not increase the actual spell level of a spell. Heighten Charm Person is not a level 2 spell. It is a level 1 spell cast from a level 2 slot that causes all effects related to spell level to treat it as a level 2 spell.Heighten Spell [Metamagic] Benefit A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
EvilVegan 06-11-07, 10:50 AM	If the highest level spell you can cast is level 2, then you can not use any ability to cast a heightened (or any other metamagic effect) at level 3 unless the ability says you can pay the level adjust in a different way (case in point divine metamagic which pays for it in turn attempts.) [quote] Even in the case of UM, you may know the 3rd level spell, but without 3rd level slots, you could not make use of Versatile Spellcaster or any other effect to cast it as a 3rd level spell until you gain 3rd level spell slots.This is completely unfounded. If you know the spell it most definitely meets the wording of versatile spellcaster. Spells effected by metamagic effects take up slots equal to the spell level + the level adjust as if they were spells of the new level, but may or may not actually be spells of that level. They take up the higher levels for example, when making magic items with the metamagic effect built in and other cases.Heighten works differently. Reference material for you: PHB p170: "If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher."Thanks for pointing this out. Versatile spellcaster lets you use 2 slots to cast a spell you know of a higher level. IE, it makes you "capable of casting spells of that level or higher" if you have a spell that you know at that level. This definitely applies to Ultimate Magus, but I will also say that it applies to Heighten spell, since that makes any spell you know a higher level for all effects dependant on spell level. It would have been delightfully simple to say "You can't cast a spell of a higher level if you don't already have spell slots for that level." No need to include the "whole PHB", as you claim. Compare it to the psionic feat Overchannel, that lets you manifest powers of a higher level than you normally have access too by spending more power points (similar to using more spell slots).
cwslyclgh 06-11-07, 10:52 AM	it is called Scillinating Sphere, I believe it first appeared in Complete Arcane, it certainly appears in the Spell Compendium.try magic of faerun for where scintillating sphere 3e, it appeared previously to that in 2e in FR16 The Shinning South.
Wrong 06-11-07, 12:42 PM	Versatile Spellcaster concerns spells you know, reference to known spells of spontaneous spellcasters. The Heighten Spell metamagic feat allows to alter all effects, nothing else than the spell effects for the casting using this metamagic. Nowhere in the feat is described that you consider that any spell you know is now considered a spell known in each higher spell known level. Heighten Spell [Metamagic] Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the [B]effective levelof the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. "Effective level, effect" : it "only" alters existing effects of the heightened spell. "As a spell of its effective level" : "as" means that an heightened spell is something different than a normal spell of this level. If an heightened Spell was becoming in all way a spell of a higher level, a fireball heightened to 7th spell level would now deal a maximum of 20d6 fire damage at 20th CL and could be delayed for 5 rounds or less. For others metamagic without effective spell level increase, Versatile Spellcaster only concerns spell known one level higher, so it doesn't work. Versatile Spellcasters works if you have a spell known one level higher from another source. Prepared spells are not spell known, so ultimate magus doesn't work.
Kalarus 06-11-07, 02:41 PM	Heighten Spell [Metamagic] Benefit A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. The existence of a spell is not dependent on spell level. The existence of a spell is not dependent on metamagic feats. This is why it's called metamagic. It is a process operating on existing magic, it does not create new magic. It merely alters what already exists. Your entire point rests on the ability to know a certain spell. Wether or not you know a certain spell is also not dependent on spell level, it is in fact dependent on the ability of a person to use spells of that level. Imagine the poor Wizard if your interpretation of metamagick worked that way. For every spell he wanted to metamagic he'd first have to research it and scribe it into his spellbook before he'd be able to prepare it to cast. Metamagic does *not* create new spells.
risner 06-11-07, 06:12 PM	As I said, you can not use Versatile Spellcaster to cast spells higher level than your currently highest spell level you can cast. Heighten Spell does not help alleviate the problem. This simply does not work as it would require a fundamental shift from the CORE rules of traditional spellcasting. Subject Does Versatile Spellcaster allow you to cast spells higher level than you can normally cast? Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 06/11/2007 02:23 PM James, You will not be able to do either of these things. You must be capable of casting a second level spell to be able to do this. Please let me know if you need anymore help! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Andrew Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (James Risner) 06/11/2007 10:33 AM I have several questions. For each assume the following character: 1st level human Sorcerer with Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell and a Knowstone of a 2nd level Sorcerer spell. Normally the 1st level Sorcerer can not cast the 2nd level spell because he has no 2nd level spell slots. 1) Can he use Versatile Spellcaster to use two 1st level slots to cast the 2nd level spell at 1st level (ECL = 1) earlier than any other character (which requires level 4 to cast 2nd level spells.) 2) Can he use Versatile Spellcaster to use two 1st level slots to cast a Heightened spell at 2nd level using a 2nd level slot despite not having any 2nd level spell slots? ******************** Page Number: 101 Book Name: Races of the Dragon
EvilVegan 06-13-07, 05:49 PM	As I said, you can not use Versatile Spellcaster to cast spells higher level than your currently highest spell level you can cast. Heighten Spell does not help alleviate the problem. This simply does not work as it would require a fundamental shift from the CORE rules of traditional spellcasting. HAHA, cust serv. Wow, you really showed me! :rolleyes: He added rules to the text: "You must be capable of casting a second level spell to be able to do this." If he wants to put out an errata that actually states this, I'm going to have to say it's just his opinion. I wouldn't mind that text being added to the rules, I just admit that it isn't there currently. That's actually the text I would recommend adding to make it clearer (as opposed to the entire PHB, as suggested previously). Very succint and clearly prevents doing something that isn't currently prevented. BTW, I don't care what cust-serv says, ever.
EvilVegan 06-13-07, 05:56 PM	The existence of a spell is not dependent on spell level. The existence of a spell is not dependent on metamagic feats. This is why it's called metamagic. It is a process operating on existing magic, it does not create new magic. It merely alters what already exists.Yes, it alters it by making it a 2nd level spell, that you know. Your entire point rests on the ability to know a certain spell. Wether or not you know a certain spell is also not dependent on spell level, it is in fact dependent on the ability of a person to use spells of that level.Not entirely dependent on the said ability. There are ways to cast or know spells of higher level than your class levels give you access to (Divine Metamagic, Ultimate Magus, Versatile Spellcaster, Precocious Apprentice). A sorcerer without Heighten Spell cannot cast a spell of a higher level, because he doesn't know any spells that can be cast at that level, but if he does have heighten, he does know a spell that when cast as a higher level is a higher level (including being known at that higher level). Imagine the poor Wizard if your interpretation of metamagick worked that way. For every spell he wanted to metamagic he'd first have to research it and scribe it into his spellbook before he'd be able to prepare it to cast. Metamagic does *not* create new spells.No, he just needs to prepare the metamagic spell that he knows thanks to his feat. He can only prepare spells he knows in slots he has available. Since the rules allow you to prepare metamagic spells and they only allow you to prepare spells you know, then you know the metamagic spells you prepare (otherwise you couldn't prepare them). Both the sorcerer and the wizard would be unable to cast metamagic spells if they didn't know the metamagic'd spells in question, since they can only cast spells they know.
Evandariel 06-13-07, 06:06 PM	That last post is inane, sorry for being blunt. You can only memorize spells you know. a maximized lightning bolt can be memorized because you know the BASE spell, lightning bolt. metamagic does not create new spells or 'spells known', it merely alters the effects of a known spell, and thus occupies a higher level slot. Heighten spell makes the spell a higher level for respect to DCs and such, but honestly, you don't know a 6th level spell just because you metamagicked a lightning bolt up to 6th level. HA HA HA. In fact, you can't even metamagic it to 6th level unless you have the appropriate slot to store it in.
risner 06-13-07, 06:26 PM	He added rules to the text: "You must be capable of casting a second level spell to be able to do this." If you really believe that, I have a bridge for sale. I don't care if you believe dead people still take actions on their turn. Say it in your underwear, but it just makes you look insane. Have your house rule anyway you wish, but it is a house rule and not substantiated in the rules in any way. Not even remotely.
Kalarus 06-13-07, 09:45 PM	Yes, it alters it by making it a 2nd level spell, that you know. Not entirely dependent on the said ability. There are ways to cast or know spells of higher level than your class levels give you access to (Divine Metamagic, Ultimate Magus, Versatile Spellcaster, Precocious Apprentice). A sorcerer without Heighten Spell cannot cast a spell of a higher level, because he doesn't know any spells that can be cast at that level, but if he does have heighten, he does know a spell that when cast as a higher level is a higher level (including being known at that higher level). No, he just needs to prepare the metamagic spell that he knows thanks to his feat. He can only prepare spells he knows in slots he has available. Since the rules allow you to prepare metamagic spells and they only allow you to prepare spells you know, then you know the metamagic spells you prepare (otherwise you couldn't prepare them). Both the sorcerer and the wizard would be unable to cast metamagic spells if they didn't know the metamagic'd spells in question, since they can only cast spells they know. At this point it doesn't really matter what arguments anyone is going to bring against your point of view. You cling to your interpretation with such tenacity that you will not let any argument count against the assumption that your interpretation is right, and interpret as many arguments possible in such a way that they support your argument, even if the one who submitted the argument provided it as an argument against your perspective. It doesn't matter wether you do this because you actually believe you have the right of it or just to have a discussion. You've apparently made up your mind so there's no more point in discussing this any further.
EvilVegan 06-14-07, 09:33 AM	That last post is inane, sorry for being blunt. You can only memorize spells you know. a maximized lightning bolt can be memorized because you know the BASE spell, lightning bolt. metamagic does not create new spells or 'spells known', it merely alters the effects of a known spell, and thus occupies a higher level slot. Heighten spell makes the spell a higher level for respect to DCs and such, but honestly, you don't know a 6th level spell just because you metamagicked a lightning bolt up to 6th level. HA HA HA. In fact, you can't even metamagic it to 6th level unless you have the appropriate slot to store it in.Inane? That's a bit uncalled for. It does indeed alter the spell, by making it a higher level (in the case of heighten). Is it higher level? Yes, for all effects and purposes it is counted as the higher level. Is it a spell you know? Yes, you can't cast spells you don't know. Is it a higher level spell that you know? Yes. Does Versatile Spellcaster allow you to cast a "higher level spell that you know"? Yes, with conditions (none of which mention being able to cast the spell with spell slots to begin with). QED. Under normal (non-versatile spellcaster + heighten) conditions you would be correct that you could not cast a spell of that level, because you don't have slots. But Versatile spellcaster makes no mention of requiring slots of that level or even the ability to cast spells of that level, merely that you know a spell of that level. A heightened spell is that level and you "know" it, so this means that you can cast spells with +1 DC by using 2 slots if you take the 2 feats. If you really believe that, I have a bridge for sale. I don't care if you believe dead people still take actions on their turn. Say it in your underwear, but it just makes you look insane. Have your house rule anyway you wish, but it is a house rule and not substantiated in the rules in any way. Not even remotely.While I value your opinion of how the RAW should be interpreted (and that is what you've posted) I have to ask you: Is it really that incredibly overpowered that with 2 feats you can increase the save DC of a spell +1 by using two slots of that spell's level? And I don't need a bridge. At this point it doesn't really matter what arguments anyone is going to bring against your point of view. You cling to your interpretation with such tenacity that you will not let any argument count against the assumption that your interpretation is right, and interpret as many arguments possible in such a way that they support your argument, even if the one who submitted the argument provided it as an argument against your perspective. It doesn't matter whether you do this because you actually believe you have the right of it or just to have a discussion. You've apparently made up your mind so there's no more point in discussing this any further.Fair enough, it was just semantics people were bringing to the table anyway. I'd like to pose the same question to you that I posed to risner: Is it over-powered?
risner 06-14-07, 11:49 AM	Is it over-powered? Yes, absolutely for several reasons. One of which is that you are making use of it to enter classes that are designed to not allow early entry. If the feats you are using are not designed (and do not do what you say), and the classes require something you need that you can not get at that level, then why bother with pre-reqs? I mean, why not just go: Wizard 1/Druid 1/MT 10/Arcane Hierophant 8 It is a better build and 100% as legal as any build using Versatile Spellcaster to break into early via an incorrect (on the face of it) interpretation of that feat. All that build above needs is a feat that allows 2nd level casting in any class you have. One feat, make it up. Call it the "bust the pre-req feat" and have a lot of fun. Instead, you choose to become an ostrich and stubbornly ignore the facts of the feat, which you know (probably) is being interpreted incorrect by you and others agreeing with you.
jaelis 06-14-07, 12:18 PM	Personally, I'd say that you need to have a spell slot at the higher level to use it. I'd also say that charm person is a first level spell, whether you heighten it or not.
Wrong 06-14-07, 12:42 PM	1) Is it higher level? Yes, for all effects and purposes it is counted as the higher level. 1) Is it a spell you know? Yes, you can't cast spells you don't know. 2) Is it a higher level spell that you know? Yes. 3) Does Versatile Spellcaster allow you to cast a "higher level spell that you know"? Yes, with conditions (none of which mention being able to cast the spell with spell slots to begin with). 1) It's higher level, but not for all purposes, only for all spell effects (the feat description mention "effective level" and "effects"). 2) No, it's a known spell altered by a metamagic. Spell known are not submitted to special spellcasting rules. 3) True. You can cast known spells of one level higher than the two slots used, but you must have this known spell. To bypass the maximum level of spell known, you must have a higher spell known from another source.
risner 06-14-07, 02:57 PM	I'd also say that charm person is a first level spell, whether you heighten it or not. And you would match nicely with the RAW.
EvilVegan 06-15-07, 05:59 PM	Yes, absolutely for several reasons. One of which is that you are making use of it to enter classes that are designed to not allow early entry. If the feats you are using are not designed (and do not do what you say), and the classes require something you need that you can not get at that level, then why bother with pre-reqs? I mean, why not just go: Wizard 1/Druid 1/MT 10/Arcane Hierophant 8Well, other than needing spontaneous spell casting to qualify for the feat and you won't qualify for arcane hierophant ever (I'll pretend you said "Sorcerer") there are other reasons to not do this, such as wildshape, feats, familiar progression, etc. Other than Mystic theurge I couldn't find any classes that didn't also have skill or class ability requirements that made the earlier casting of 1 higher level the only qualifier. Nor were those classes (that you couldn't get into because of skill requirements) over-powered by early entry. Pretend you could get into Shadowcraft Mage early. You get the ability to turn spells into shadow spells at 10% fo the spell level. Even if you got into this class at 1st level you'd have the ability to duplicate 0th level spells at 10% chance/effectiveness. WOW! Overpowered. You don't get the feats that truly overpower the class until 9th level, which you would be able to have normally anyway. I picked shadowcraft because of its power and utility. Your knee jerk to my suggested option is understandable, but I think unwarranted. PrCs are typically designed with early entry prevented as a rule, but I've seen very few prestige classes that would actually be overpowered if allowed earlier. Personally if one of my players is obviously constructing his character to qualify ASAP for a particular PrC and planning on going through the whole thing, I typically work with them to make a 20 level build that incorporates the class features of the PrC and elements of the classes they'd need to get into that PrC. That way they get the "cool" abilities earlier and don't get things they don't want to have or that don't fit their concept. (This isn't important to this debate though, just wanted to bring it up). PrCs aren't necessarily more powerful if allowed earlier. Especially spell-casting PrCs that require a lot of feats and higher-level spells to benefit from the PrC abilities. You also avoided the question of "is +1 save DC for 2 spell slots overpowered?" by answering a different question. Instead, you choose to become an ostrich and stubbornly ignore the facts of the feat, which you know (probably) is being interpreted incorrect by you and others agreeing with you.No one has agreed with me. That doesn't mean I'm wrong. The fact of the feat is that it doesn't mention needing to be able to cast spells of that level. 1) It's higher level, but not for all purposes, only for all spell effects (the feat description mention "effective level" and "effects"). 2) No, it's a known spell altered by a metamagic. Spell known are not submitted to special spellcasting rules. 3) True. You can cast known spells of one level higher than the two slots used, but you must have this known spell. To bypass the maximum level of spell known, you must have a higher spell known from another source. 1) "effective level". Its effective level is the higher level. It is effectively that level. 2) They are [subject to special spellcasting rules] if you apply metamagic to them. You still know the spell and it is still effectively that spell level. 3) "To bypass the maximum level of spell known, you must have a higher spell known from another source." Where did you get that? I mean, it makes sense and wouldn't have been a bad thing to include in the feat, but it isn't there currently.
risner 06-16-07, 01:57 AM	No one has agreed with me. That doesn't mean I'm wrong. The fact of the feat is that it doesn't mention needing to be able to cast spells of that level. Well, you are wrong. The fact that no one agrees with you should give you a clue. The feat doesn't say you can cast spells higher level than normal, so by the rules in the PHB, you can not cast 2nd level spells at 1st level with or without this feat. That is a fact that you choose to stubbornly ignore. You can provide no evidence of your position, none, zilch, nada. Your position is simply of "I think it is so, therefore since I am never wrong, it is so." That doesn't here. You need to prove your side and the burden of proof is absolutely on your shoulders.
Wrong 06-16-07, 06:18 AM	1) "effective level". Its effective level is the higher level. It is effectively that level. 2) They are [subject to special spellcasting rules] if you apply metamagic to them. You still know the spell and it is still effectively that spell level. 3) "To bypass the maximum level of spell known, you must have a higher spell known from another source." Where did you get that? I mean, it makes sense and wouldn't have been a bad thing to include in the feat, but it isn't there currently. 1) Nowhere in the Heighten Spell metamagic feat is said that you now know any of your spells at each higher spell level with accordingly higher spell effects. A fireball doesn't become a delayed blast fireball when using Heighten Spell. Same for lightning bolt and chain lightning, invisibility and greater invisibility, lesser globe of invulnerability and globe of invulnerability. 2) "They are [subject to special spellcasting rules] if you apply metamagic to them. You still know the spell and it is still effectively that spell level." You are saying that a heightened spell is a known spell subject to special spellcasting rules if you apply metamagic to them (I said : No, it[Heightened Spell]'s a known spell altered by a metamagic. Spell known are not submitted to special spellcasting rules [I was refering to the comparison between heightened spell and spell known, this sentence makes no sense otherwise]). 3) I just read the feat description. Versatile Spellcaster : "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.There's no precision about the spell known source. Just that you have to have a spell known of one level higher. Heighten Spell is a metamagic effect on a known spell. I do not understand how a metamagic effect can be considered as a new known spell as there's no such rule anywhere in the books.
EvilVegan 06-16-07, 11:52 AM	Well, you are wrong. The fact that no one agrees with you should give you a clue. The feat doesn't say you can cast spells higher level than normal, so by the rules in the PHB, you can not cast 2nd level spells at 1st level with or without this feat.It states you can use 2 slots to cast 1 higher level spell you know. By the rules of the PHB a heightened spell is a higher level spell you know. What about Ultimate Magus? It definitely allows you to know spells of a higher level that you cannot yet cast. Would Versatile Spellcaster allow you to cast those higher level spells that you know? Could you cast a heightened charm person using Versatile Spellcaster if you were a 4th level sorcerer? You still haven't said whether you feel it is overpowered to cast a spell with +1 save DC using 2 slots. . . 1) Nowhere in the Heighten Spell metamagic feat is said that you now know any of your spells at each higher spell level with accordingly higher spell effects. A fireball doesn't become a delayed blast fireball when using Heighten Spell. Same for lightning bolt and chain lightning, invisibility and greater invisibility, lesser globe of invulnerability and globe of invulnerability.I never claimed it became an improved version of the spell, I said it is "effectively" the higher level. Meaning you know the spell and it is effectively a higher level, so it effectively qualifies for the benefits of this feat. 2) "They are [subject to special spellcasting rules] if you apply metamagic to them. You still know the spell and it is still effectively that spell level." You are saying that a heightened spell is a known spell subject to special spellcasting rules if you apply metamagic to them (I said : No, it[Heightened Spell]'s a known spell altered by a metamagic. Spell known are not submitted to special spellcasting rules [I was refering to the comparison between heightened spell and spell known, this sentence makes no sense otherwise]). I know what you were saying. I'm saying that you still know the spell and it is effectively a higher level. Spells known are not subject to special spellcasting rules, unless they have a metamagic applied to them. But just because they have a metamagic applied to them doesn't mean you don't know the spell that you are casting. If you have 2nd level slots available and you heighten a charm person it is a 2nd level spell that you know. If you don't have 2nd level slots available normally, but still have access to heighten charm person and the ability to burn 1st level slots to cast a higher level spell that you know, the exact same logic applies to allow it. Can you use versatile spellcaster to cast a heightened charm person if you were a 4th level sorcerer? If the answer to that is "yes", then there is no reason it shouldn't work exactly the same if you were 1st level. You use 2 slots to increase the save DC +1. Or are you claiming that you couldn't cast a heightened charm person with versatile spellcaster as a 4th level sorcerer? 3) I just read the feat description. There's no precision about the spell known source. Just that you have to have a spell known of one level higher. Heighten Spell is a metamagic effect on a known spell. I do not understand how a metamagic effect can be considered as a new known spell as there's no such rule anywhere in the books.It isn't a new spell known, it is a spell you know and it is higher level (thanks to the feat). When you cast this spell you know as a higher level spell (that you still know) you have special spellcasting conditions to meet.
risner 06-16-07, 01:02 PM	1) Would Versatile Spellcaster allow you to cast those higher level spells that you know? 2) Could you cast a heightened charm person using Versatile Spellcaster if you were a 4th level sorcerer? 3) You still haven't said whether you feel it is overpowered to cast a spell with +1 save DC using 2 slots. . . 4) Can you use versatile spellcaster to cast a heightened charm person if you were a 4th level sorcerer? 5) Or are you claiming that you couldn't cast a heightened charm person with versatile spellcaster as a 4th level sorcerer? 1) No of course not, there is little doubt of this as a fact. You have doubt, but it comes from exploitation and purposfully inserting words into the meaning of the RAW. RAW absolutely prohibits it. You have modified RAW to add this line "This feat allows a character to cast spells higher level than his spell casting classes allow." That line doesn't exist and no amount of your ranting is going to make it appear in the book. 2) Heighten Charm Person (SL1) to SL2 and pay for it via two 1st level slots in a Sorcerer CL4 who has 1st and 2nd level slots? Absolutely, but this is 100% unrelated in any way to what we are discussing. 3) Yes 4) See #2 5) See #2 Basically, your position has no merit and utilizes a willful misreading or adding lines that don't exist in the RAW. There is no valid position you can take to demonstrate your theory.
Kalarus 06-16-07, 01:49 PM	To answer a question directed earlier at me, if I felt it is actually overpowered: I don't know. Playtest it. I won't say right off the bat that it's too powerful to let people cast metamagicked spells in this way, you'll be burning lower level slots like a bad habit after all. I will say right off the bat that it is too powerful to warrant entry into prestige classes. If you want to force your interpretation on this to make it work, it should work because the combination of lower level slots allows you to create a higher level spell *effect*, not to actually cast a higher level spell. If you don't see it that way, you would qualify for PrCs and I think that one is, without a doubt, too much.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-16-07, 01:59 PM	Time to end this. As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.Not enough proof? Okay. In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.This is getting pretty conclusive in proving Risner right. But, just a little more! A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.Note that Heighten Spell does not contradict this line of text: This does not change the level of the spellThe defense rests. You cannot use Versatile Spellcaster the way you want to. A 1st level spell Heightened to levl 2 is still a first level spell, eventhough the level dependant effects have changed. Risner is right, you are wrong.
angryscrub 06-16-07, 04:32 PM	It states you can use 2 slots to cast 1 higher level spell you know. By the rules of the PHB a heightened spell is a higher level spell you know. i completely disagree with you on this point. effective spell level is not the same as actual spell level. the wording of versatile spellcaster quite clearly looks for actual spell level. a heightened spell acts in all ways as a higher level spell it is true, but the spell is not acting when you use the feat, your character is acting by initiating the versatile spell caster feat, which only looks for higher level spells, and a heightened spell, even if you had one prepared somehow, still isn't actually the higher level. What about Ultimate Magus? It definitely allows you to know spells of a higher level that you cannot yet cast. Would Versatile Spellcaster allow you to cast those higher level spells that you know? i would be tempted to say yes to this question, based on the wording of the feat and the UM class ability, except that i can't quite figure out how you are accomplishing this. what combination of classes with ultimate magus ever lets you actually put a spell of higher level than you can cast on your list? i know it says you can do this, but HOW are you doing this? a wizard sorcerer is always going to be able to cast spells of the level he's allowed put on to his spontaneous list. if you can't show a build that actually accomplishes this, the point is moot. Could you cast a heightened charm person using Versatile Spellcaster if you were a 4th level sorcerer? by RAW, i would have to say this quite clearly is not allowed, though i can't imagine there are too many games that actually disallow this. but once again the wording is clear, you have actually know a spell that is one level higher than the spell levels you are sacrificing. i doubt this was the intent, but until whomever wrote actually shares his/her intent with us, all we have to go by is what is actually written.
EvilVegan 06-16-07, 07:09 PM	1) No of course not, there is little doubt of this as a fact. You have doubt, but it comes from exploitation and purposfully inserting words into the meaning of the RAW. RAW absolutely prohibits it. You have modified RAW to add this line "This feat allows a character to cast spells higher level than his spell casting classes allow." That line doesn't exist and no amount of your ranting is going to make it appear in the book.Such a line does not need to be added. An ultimate magus knows spells of a higher level that he may not be able to cast yet. Versatile spellcaster lets you cast spells you know of a higher level with no mention of needing to be able to cast the spell to begin with. I am not adding anything, you are adding "Even if a sorcerer knows a spell of a higher level he would be unable to cast it unless normally able to do so with spell slots." 2) Heighten Charm Person (SL1) to SL2 and pay for it via two 1st level slots in a Sorcerer CL4 who has 1st and 2nd level slots? Absolutely, but this is 100% unrelated in any way to what we are discussing.It is 100% related to what we are discussing. If a 4th level sorcerer can heighten a 1st level spell to 2nd level using 2 slots, even though he doesn't technically know that spell as a 2nd level heightened spell (by your interpretation), then there is no reason a 1st level sorcerer could not do exactly the same thing. It is identical in all ways to casting it at 1st level vs 4th level. There is no rules contradiction that prevents this, and the only contradiction is your stating that you can do it at 4th but not at 1st. 3) Yes [it is overpowered to use 2 slots to cast a spell at +1 save DC]This is ludicrous. I understand your reluctance to allow early entry into classes, and you've stated previously that even if this feat did work the way I'm stating that you would ban early entry on other grounds. But using 2 spell slots to increase the DC 5% is way underpowered compared to casting the same spell 2 times. Basically, your position has no merit and utilizes a willful misreading or adding lines that don't exist in the RAW. There is no valid position you can take to demonstrate your theory.So stating that 4th level sorcerer can do something identically to the way I'm describing at 1st level that doesn't require any extra rules or strange interpretation is an invalid position? You are wrong. The only correct interpretation is either 1) You cannot use versatile spellcaster to cast a heightened spell. Or 2) You can use versatile spellcaster to cast a heightened spell. Since versatile spellcaster makes no mention of being able to cast spells of the higher level to begin with, you can't do #2 at 4th but not at 1st. Since I feel that a sorcerer can cast a heightened spell at 4th level using 1st level slots to duplicate a 2nd level heightened spell that he knows, I freely admit that the correct interpretation of the feat is that he could also do so at 1st level (since the spellcasting mechanic is 100% identical and there are no rules to prevent it, and no further rules text needed to allow it).
EvilVegan 06-16-07, 07:44 PM	Time to end this. As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.Not enough proof? Okay. In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.This is getting pretty conclusive in proving Risner right. But, just a little more! A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.Note that Heighten Spell does contradict this line of text: Metamagic This does not change the level of the spell The defense rests. You can use Versatile Spellcaster the way you want to. A 1st level spell Heightened to level 2 is a second level spell, because this is how heighten spell alters the spell. Risner is wrong, you are right. Corrected for truth. Changes in red. I'm sorry you wasted your time posting all that information about other metamagic feats that due to the "unlike other metamagic feats" clause in Heighten Spell has absolutely no relevance to the discussion at hand. Please, don't stop resting though.
EvilVegan 06-16-07, 08:00 PM	i completely disagree with you on this point. effective spell level is not the same as actual spell level. the wording of versatile spellcaster quite clearly looks for actual spell level. a heightened spell acts in all ways as a higher level spell it is true, but the spell is not acting when you use the feat, your character is acting by initiating the versatile spell caster feat, which only looks for higher level spells, and a heightened spell, even if you had one prepared somehow, still isn't actually the higher level. by RAW, i would have to say this quite clearly is not allowed, though i can't imagine there are too many games that actually disallow this. but once again the wording is clear, you have actually know a spell that is one level higher than the spell levels you are sacrificing. i doubt this was the intent, but until whomever wrote actually shares his/her intent with us, all we have to go by is what is actually written.Well at least you're in line with my previous either/or statement: Either you can heighten with versatile spellcaster or you can't. i would be tempted to say yes to this question, based on the wording of the feat and the UM class ability, except that i can't quite figure out how you are accomplishing this. what combination of classes with ultimate magus ever lets you actually put a spell of higher level than you can cast on your list? i know it says you can do this, but HOW are you doing this? a wizard sorcerer is always going to be able to cast spells of the level he's allowed put on to his spontaneous list. if you can't show a build that actually accomplishes this, the point is moot. And ultimate magus has the ability to add spells to his sorcerer spells known even if he can't yet cast them (with the assumption that he will be able too within the next few levels). And actually now that I have access to CM (I didn't previously), I may have to say that RAW it is unavailable (but not for any reasons previously posted, and it may still be DM call). "Ultimate Magus - Expanded Spell knowledge: [You] may add [X spell] to [your] list of spells known for a spontaneous caster, even if you can't spontaneously cast spells of that level." This part definitely meets the requirements of versatile spellcaster. Then there is this clause: "In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn't be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level." So, you'd have to decide whether the Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast spells you know or whether the clause specifically excludes the casting of higher level spells, even if you know it. Either way, this clause would need to also be in the wording of Versatile Spellcaster to prevent the use of heighten spell with it (in my opinion). The only thing that needs to be proved is that a heightened spell is not a spell you know or that it isn't a higher level. I don't believe you can cast spells that you don't know and it is obviously a higher level. So that's the part that's left to DM interpretation. Risner (et al) are pretty clearly in the "with Heighten spell you can cast spells you don't really know" camp, but he still needs to come to terms with properly using Versatile Spellcaster to cast heightened spells (one way or the other).
stoicfaux 06-16-07, 08:02 PM	It is 100% related to what we are discussing. If a 4th level sorcerer can heighten a 1st level spell to 2nd level using 2 slots, even though he doesn't technically know that spell as a 2nd level heightened spell (by your interpretation), then there is no reason a 1st level sorcerer could not do exactly the same thing. It is identical in all ways to casting it at 1st level vs 4th level. There is no rules contradiction that prevents this, and the only contradiction is your stating that you can do it at 4th but not at 1st. This is ludicrous. I understand your reluctance to allow early entry into classes, and you've stated previously that even if this feat did work the way I'm stating that you would ban early entry on other grounds. But using 2 spell slots to increase the DC 5% is way underpowered compared to casting the same spell 2 times. So stating that 4th level sorcerer can do something identically to the way I'm describing at 1st level that doesn't require any extra rules or strange interpretation is an invalid position? Firstly, kudos on the rules lawyering. It's always fun to find those weird cases. However, here's a fly for the ointment: 1) Does a heightened (to level 2) charm person spell count against the 2nd level spells that a sorcerer can know? 2) Can a wizard copy a heightened (to level 2) charm person spell into his spellbook as a level 2 spell? 3) Are heightened Warmage spells listed on their spell charts? 4) Does the Extra Slot feat allow a first level sorcerer the ability to add a 2nd level spell slot just because he knows the heightened level 2 version of charm person? The answer is no to all cases. Therefore the heightened spell isn't a real spell per se. Therefore you cannot claim a heightened spell is something you know and can use the Versatile Spellcaster feat on. Your interpretation is also extremely munchkin because you could chain up several levels of spells. Your 1st level sorcerer with four 1st level spells would convert them to two 2nd level spells. Then you could convert the two 2nd into a single 3rd level spell. Does it really make sense for a 1st level Sorcerer to cast a 3rd level spell? (Even if it is "just" a 3rd level version of a 1st level spell.) I also imagine that there's a feat or class ability that can convert a spell into another spell or effect that you plan on using.[1] It would be really munchkin if your 3rd level charm spell could be turned into a fireball. Again, kudos on getting *that* close to finding such a rules munchy loophole. :) P.S. Read up on the Warmage. Warmages do know all levels of their spells at 1st level. Your rules interpretation would be a dramatic boon to warmages (except for the fact that heightened spells are not listed as known spells for warmages.) edit: syntax and footnote [1] Which turns out to be the Expanded Spell Knowledge feat.
EvilVegan 06-16-07, 08:12 PM	To answer a question directed earlier at me, if I felt it is actually overpowered: I don't know. Playtest it. I won't say right off the bat that it's too powerful to let people cast metamagicked spells in this way, you'll be burning lower level slots like a bad habit after all. I will say right off the bat that it is too powerful to warrant entry into prestige classes. If you want to force your interpretation on this to make it work, it should work because the combination of lower level slots allows you to create a higher level spell *effect*, not to actually cast a higher level spell. If you don't see it that way, you would qualify for PrCs and I think that one is, without a doubt, too much.I don't feel the direct effect of heightening a spell with 2 slots is overpowered (nor do I think using multiple spell slots to apply other metamagics is). I view it in the same light as I view psionics, and those scale even better than this and don't require a feat (on augmentable spells anyway). With psionics you could manifest a 1st level charm person twice or you could spend the same number of extra PSP to cast it as effectively as a 2nd level power (to greater effect typically). I don't view psionics as overpowered in this regard and it is similar in outcome. Indirectly, early entry into spellcasting classesis much less of a problem than people think (as I posted earlier), except for dual-caster classes such as mystic theurge, but those tend to balance out at the higher levels of play when you run out of dual casting PrCs to advance in. Still, true necromancer, mystic theurge, maybe arcane heirophant (it has other requirements that delay entry), and a few others may be slightly overpowered. If anything the worst abuse of this would be mystic theurge into true necromancer a single level early, or fochluchan lyrist with less loss of spellcasting. And true necromancer is typically seen as a sub-par prestige class, and doesn't really benefit any more for early entry. I'm having trouble thinking of other examples that would be overpowered, but you can feel free to your opinion. Please post an example of an overpowered class that allows early entry, other than mystic theurge / dual-casters.
EvilVegan 06-16-07, 08:20 PM	Firstly, kudos on the rules lawyering. It's always fun to find those weird cases. Thanks! However, here's a fly for the ointment: 1) Does a heightened (to level 2) charm person spell count against the 2nd level spells that a sorcerer can know? 2) Can a wizard copy a heightened (to level 2) charm person spell into his spellbook as a level 2 spell? 3) Are heightened Warmage spells listed on their spell charts? 4) Does the Extra Slot feat allow a first level sorcerer the ability to add a 2nd level spell slot just because he knows the heightened level 2 version of charm person? 1)Nope. They have a feat that lets them cast it as a higher level spell. They still know the spell, and it is still higher level. 2)Yes. You can write heightened spells into your spellbook. 3)Technically yes, they're listed at the lower level, but when heightened are effectively the level they are heightened to. In effect when you use 2 1st level slots to cast a 2nd level spell you know, you still know the 1st level spell you are heightening, but it is effectively a 2nd level spell. 4)No, but it would allow you to add a 1st level slot. Extra slot adds 1 slot of a level lower than the highest spell you can currently cast. But that would be 3 feats to get a 1st level slot, I can think of better things to use it on (like taking it at 18th level and getting an extra 9th level slot. :P) The answer is no to all cases. Therefore the heightened spell isn't a real spell per se. Therefore you cannot claim a heightened spell is something you know and can use the Versatile Spellcaster feat on. Your interpretation is also extremely munchkin because you could chain up several levels of spells. Your 1st level sorcerer with four 1st level spells would convert them to two 2nd level spells. Then you could convert the two 2nd into a single 3rd level spell. Does it really make sense for a 1st level Sorcerer to cast a 3rd level spell? (Even if it is "just" a 3rd level version of a 1st level spell.)Actually no, you don't have 2nd level slots to convert into a higher level spell. You wouldn't be able to cast a 3rd level spell with 4 1st level slots, because Versatile Spellcaster doesn't grant higher level slots, only the ability to cast higher level spells that you know with lower level slots. P.S. Read up on the Warmage. Warmages do know all levels of their spells at 1st level. Your rules interpretation would be a dramatic boon to warmages (except for the fact that heightened spells are not listed as known spells for warmages.)But they still know them when they heighten them. The beauty is that neither heighten spell nor versatile spellcaster mention needing slots of the higher level, only that they allow you to cast spells of the higher level if you know them. Typically you can't cast higher level spells via heighten without higher level slots to put them in, but versatile spellcaster bypasses this by using lower level slots to cast the higher level spell that you know.
risner 06-16-07, 09:48 PM	2)Yes. You can write heightened spells into your spellbook. You have shown again an utter lack of knowledge of the rules. This is absolutely not true. You just made 4 posts of inaccurate and false statements. Unless you can point to a SRD/PHB page that plainly says a 1st level Sorcerer can cast 2nd and 3rd level spells if they know them (like if they had a 3rd level Knowstone), then you have no case. Please post evidence and not rhetoric. Provide us with the proof of your case or please stop posting.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-16-07, 10:02 PM	A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way.. End of Arguement. A sorcerer or bard cannot use versatile spellcaster the way he wants
angryscrub 06-16-07, 11:23 PM	Well at least you're in line with my previous either/or statement: Either you can heighten with versatile spellcaster or you can't. well, the phrasing seems quite clear to me. i would definitely say that by RAW, you can't cast any metamagicked spell with versatile spellcaster, unless it's a 0 level adjustment to it. And ultimate magus has the ability to add spells to his sorcerer spells known even if he can't yet cast them (with the assumption that he will be able too within the next few levels). i think you missed the point of my question. a wizard / sorcerer (or warmage or beguiler) isn't going to be able to add spells of a higher level than he/she can cast due to the restrictions on the maximum level of spell you can add at each level you can do it. i suppose you could manage it with a wizard/bard, or a wizard/sorcerer/warmage, but i really fail to see why or how anyone would think such a character was a good idea. "In this case, you would know the spell but wouldn't be able to cast it until you had spell slots of the appropriate level." So, you'd have to decide whether the Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast spells you know or whether the clause specifically excludes the casting of higher level spells, even if you know it. Either way, this clause would need to also be in the wording of Versatile Spellcaster to prevent the use of heighten spell with it (in my opinion). hrm, actually, this would quite clearly be a case of a more specific rule (ultimate magus) overriding a more general rule (versatile spellcaster). it quite clearly states you can't cast it. The only thing that needs to be proved is that a heightened spell is not a spell you know or that it isn't a higher level. I don't believe you can cast spells that you don't know and it is obviously a higher level. So that's the part that's left to DM interpretation. Risner (et al) are pretty clearly in the "with Heighten spell you can cast spells you don't really know" camp, but he still needs to come to terms with properly using Versatile Spellcaster to cast heightened spells (one way or the other). well, i disagree with the first part. i'm still not seeing your insistance on a heightened spell actually being higher level. but i do agree with you on the second. and by RAW, i don't see a level 4 sorcerer being able to cast a heightened charm person with versatile spellcaster.
stoicfaux 06-17-07, 12:44 AM	Thanks! 1)Nope. They have a feat that lets them cast it as a higher level spell. They still know the spell, and it is still higher level. Incorrect. Sorcerers apply meta-magic feats to spells when they are cast. Pg 88 of the PHB under the Sorcerers and Bards section: "They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher level spell slot." The heightened spell isn't "known" as an independent spell. Instead you cast a 1st level spell and then heighten it be 2nd level, if and only if you have a 2nd level spell slot available. Say I was a 1st level human sorcerer with still spell and versatile spellcaster. Could I burn multiple 1st level spells to cast a still magic missile as a 2nd level spell? So the answer to your initial question is clearly and definitely a "no." 2)Yes. You can write heightened spells into your spellbook. No. Even though you can scribe a scroll with a metamagic'd charm person spell, if you attempt to scribe the spell into your spell book, you would just get the un-metamagic'd charm person spell. On a similar note, you can counterspell a heightened fireball (say 5th level) with a regular 3rd level fireball. Metamagic modifies spells, it doesn't create known spells. 3) Technically yes, they're listed at the lower level, but when heightened are effectively the level they are heightened to. In effect when you use 2 1st level slots to cast a 2nd level spell you know, you still know the 1st level spell you are heightening, but it is effectively a 2nd level spell. Now you're just being silly. If heightened spells are known spells, then you have to treat them as known spells. Which for sorcerers means they count against your list of known spells. Which would mean if sorcerers took metamagic feats they would completely break the limits on sorcerers' known spells. Obviously, this is a rules contradiction, a contradiction which undermines your interpretation of metamagic'd spells as being known spells. The beauty is that neither heighten spell nor versatile spellcaster mention needing slots of the higher level, only that they allow you to cast spells of the higher level if you know them. No joy on heighten. Page 88 does state that metamagic'd spells require a spell slot. The feat doesn't mention needing slots, but the rules for metamagic require an open spell slot. However, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't seem to explicitly exclude classes (but then it doesn't explicitly allow cross class spells.) So a Wiz3/Cleric3/Sorc1 could use two 1st level sorcerer arcane spells to cast a 2nd level cleric or wizard spell. However, that would be a gross interpretation of the feat. Anyway, as much fun as rules lawyering can be, you're dead in the water concerning metamagic as known spells. As for Versatile Spellcaster, you would need an odd DM to accept such a liberal interpretation.
Wrong 06-17-07, 04:32 AM	With the logic noted on the other side noted: • You can use Empower Spell to increases by 50% any caster level related spell parameters, as there's so many way to alter CL that now CL can be considered as a variable numeric effect. • Maximize Spell maximizes all variable, numeric effects of a spell, so the DM must determine what is the maxumum caster possible in his campaign, or just consider that the spell CL is now equal to infinity (see Empower Spell for CL considered as a variable number). Then the damage dice number is the maximum allowed by the spell, as this number is determined by the CL. • Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You may cast it when you want, even when it's not your turn, but only once per round. As you can otherwise perform any number of free action, you still can use the swift or immediate action allowed for the round, because quickened action is not the same type of action.Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Ca sting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. • Delay Spell sets another numeric, variable number to a spell (a delay of one to five rounds), so with Empower Spell, you can delay a spell by seven rounds. • Energy Substitution, a spell altered by this feat uses a spell slot of the normal spell level. So if you apply Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, Twin Spell, and then apply Energy Substitution to a fireball, for example, the spell uses a spell slot of the normal spell level, a third level spell slot. • Repeat Spell repeats the spell in the following round. It repeats every round thereafter if it's possible. Only dispelling or dismissing the spell can stop the spell to repeat if there's no limitation to stop repeating the effects. Nowhere in the feat is set a limitation on the number of rounds for repeating the spell. • Split Ray sets another numeric, variable number to a spell (the ray number as it varies between castings when you apply split ray and casting without split ray). Then an empowered, splitted scorching ray can fire 6 rays, all of them dealing +50% damage. With a twinned, empowered, splitted, energy admixtured, maximized, energy substituted scorching ray, it's 12 rays, of all of them dealing 48+50% damage, using a second level spell slot. • Twin Spell : if you twin a teleport on a creature or object, the target is also twinned by the teleportation. Teleport is not an overlapping or stacking effect, it's an instantaneous effect that takes place twice and simultaneously. So the target is teleported, but each teleport effect carry its own target. Then, the target can consider its own number as a variable, numeric effect related to the possibility of being targeted with a twinned teleport… And no, I do not consider these options as overpowered as there are allowed by the rules !
EvilVegan 06-17-07, 08:50 AM	You have shown again an utter lack of knowledge of the rules. This is absolutely not true. You just made 4 posts of inaccurate and false statements. Unless you can point to a SRD/PHB page that plainly says a 1st level Sorcerer can cast 2nd and 3rd level spells if they know them (like if they had a 3rd level Knowstone), then you have no case. Please post evidence and not rhetoric. Provide us with the proof of your case or please stop posting. Does a knowstone specifically mention needing a spell slot of the appropriate level before being able to cast the spell? If it doesn't specifically require a spell slot (as Ultimate Magus does) and treats the spell as if you know it then it would be a viable choice for versatile spellcaster, as long as it was only 1 level higher than your current maximum. It isn't in the PHB/SRD that a 1st level spellcaster can cast 2nd level spells if he knows them. It is in Races of the Dragon and its called "Versatile Spellcaster". The PHB doesn't have any way for a sorcerer to know spells before he's able to cast the spells nor ways to cast the spells before he knows them, but thanks to splats we now have ways to do so. And what changes at 4th level to allow a heightened charm person to function? It still isn't a 2nd level spell known and you're still using 1st level slots to power it. It's a 1st level spell that you know that you can cast as a higher level spell (that you still know).
EvilVegan 06-17-07, 08:52 AM	A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way.. End of Arguement. A sorcerer or bard cannot use versatile spellcaster the way he wants Except for Knowstones, Ultimate Magus, Extra Spell feat, etc. There are exceptions to the rules of the PHB in other books. Deal with it.
EvilVegan 06-17-07, 09:13 AM	well, the phrasing seems quite clear to me. i would definitely say that by RAW, you can't cast any metamagicked spell with versatile spellcaster, unless it's a 0 level adjustment to it.I agree that this is a correct interpretation. I also think my interpretation is correct (that you can use specific metamagic to alter a spell and it qualifies as "a higher level spell you know") I think that heighten specifically functions to make the spell a higher level spell. If you didn't know the spell you wouldn't be able to cast it. It is (effectively) a higher level spell that you know, even though it is a 1st level spell altered by metamagic. I personally don't think it is overpowered to allow other metamagics to apply, as long as you don't stack them above the level your capable of casting with versatile spellcaster, but that would just be a house rule. If anything Versatile Spellcaster I think it would need a clause that stated that you cannot use metamagic.i think you missed the point of my question. a wizard / sorcerer (or warmage or beguiler) isn't going to be able to add spells of a higher level than he/she can cast due to the restrictions on the maximum level of spell you can add at each level you can do it. i suppose you could manage it with a wizard/bard, or a wizard/sorcerer/warmage, but i really fail to see why or how anyone would think such a character was a good idea.Oh, you're right. I hadn't looked at Ultimate Magus before someone brought it up earlier (I was arguing for their point mostly). I did miss it, my bad. How about "his charisma is too low", but that would just be silly. :P hrm, actually, this would quite clearly be a case of a more specific rule (ultimate magus) overriding a more general rule (versatile spellcaster). it quite clearly states you can't cast it.Yes, it does state that you can't cast it and I noticed that you can't even add spells you can't cast yet unless you gimped your character. But if you gimped your character, maybe your DM would be nice and let you qualify for casting the spell via Versatile spellcaster :D. well, i disagree with the first part. i'm still not seeing your insistance on a heightened spell actually being higher level. but i do agree with you on the second. and by RAW, i don't see a level 4 sorcerer being able to cast a heightened charm person with versatile spellcaster.Fair enough. I think heighten spell clearly makes a spell a higher level spell, if you limit that to spell effects only that is a correct interpretation. I don't limit it in that way, I treat it as "effectively a higher level spell" for all effects. Which to me, qualifies it for Versatile Spellcaster ([effectively] a higher level spell you know).
EvilVegan 06-17-07, 09:50 AM	Incorrect. Sorcerers apply meta-magic feats to spells when they are cast. Pg 88 of the PHB under the Sorcerers and Bards section: "They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher level spell slot." The heightened spell isn't "known" as an independent spell. Instead you cast a 1st level spell and then heighten it be 2nd level, if and only if you have a 2nd level spell slot available.And that is the semantics portion of the argument. I see no rules stating this is the case. Quite the contrary actually: Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.The first part of this sentence is directly overridden by Heighten spell, and we're not discussing prepared spells, so we have to focus on "cast as a higher-level spell." It is cast as a higher level spell, not as a lower level spell and raised by the feat to a higher level after the casting. As for it not being an independently "known" higher level spell, I'm not saying it needs to be, I'm saying when cast as a heightened spell, it is a higher level spell and you know it. A higher level spell that you know. So the answer to your initial question is clearly and definitely a "no."Yea, I figured that out, but I've switched to heighten now which works differently than other metamagics. :P No. Even though you can scribe a scroll with a metamagic'd charm person spell, if you attempt to scribe the spell into your spell book, you would just get the un-metamagic'd charm person spell. On a similar note, you can counterspell a heightened fireball (say 5th level) with a regular 3rd level fireball. Metamagic modifies spells, it doesn't create known spells.The rules specifically state that you can counter metamagic spells with their non-metamagic base spell. That has nothing to do with creating known spells though. I'm not saying it "creates" spells known, I'm saying you still know it when you cast it as a higher level version. Now you're just being silly. If heightened spells are known spells, then you have to treat them as known spells. Which for sorcerers means they count against your list of known spells. Which would mean if sorcerers took metamagic feats they would completely break the limits on sorcerers' known spells. Obviously, this is a rules contradiction, a contradiction which undermines your interpretation of metamagic'd spells as being known spells.They do count against your spells known. A charm person is a 1st level spell that you would have to know to be able to heighten it. It counts against your 1st level spells known. Metamagic does help a sorcerer "break" the limits on sorcerer's known spells in a way. The feats give them the ability to use their higher level slots for increased effectiveness of their lower level spells. It doesn't directly affect their number of spells known, but it does have a nearly identical effect. A sorcerer could learn fireball and take the delay spell feat, or learn delayed blast fireball as a spell known. He gets diminishing return for the feat (since it caps at the lower level and doesn't increase save DC, but it is a level lower), but it does free up a higher level slot for a spell that may be better than delayed blast fireball for nearly the same effect. I'm not saying delay spell feat lets him "know" delayed blast fireball for free at 6th level, but it frees up a spell known well enough. No joy on heighten. Page 88 does state that metamagic'd spells require a spell slot. The feat doesn't mention needing slots, but the rules for metamagic require an open spell slot.This point is the best one I've seen so far against my argument. Kudos! Its about time someone mentioned this. This feeds into my other argument "You can either heighten with versatile spellcaster or you can't" regardless of level. A 4th level sorcerer couldn't heighten charm person any more than he could at 1st level with versatile spellcaster. But I don't think that is the only correct interpretation available. However, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't seem to explicitly exclude classes (but then it doesn't explicitly allow cross class spells.) So a Wiz3/Cleric3/Sorc1 could use two 1st level sorcerer arcane spells to cast a 2nd level cleric or wizard spell. However, that would be a gross interpretation of the feat.I noticed that as well, but its silly, so I didn't bring it up. Also it doesn't specifically limit it to spontaneous slots. It is a poorly described feat. Anyway, as much fun as rules lawyering can be, you're dead in the water concerning metamagic as known spells. As for Versatile Spellcaster, you would need an odd DM to accept such a liberal interpretation.A reasonable one would do fine. It isn't even slightly overpowered and if you've got a problem with "early entry" into PrCs, just go with the rule that you can't enter the class before you'd normally be able to do so (similar to the gestalt rules). No big. Anyway, in light of needing an actual "spell slot" to heighten a spell I have to say that you can't use any metamagic with Versatile Spellcaster (aside from +0 adjustments). Congratulations! You actually argued your point without being a complete ass. I concede the point. (But I still don't think its overpowered and will allow it in all of my campaigns as a houserule, with the necessary added text limiting it to spells known of the same class). The jury is still out on Knowstones however, and any of these (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=616344) that may add spells known before you can cast them. :P
NobodyRemembersThis 06-17-07, 09:57 AM	Except for Knowstones, Ultimate Magus, Extra Spell feat, etc. There are exceptions to the rules of the PHB in other books. Deal with it.But Versatile Spellcaster does not make such an exception. If it did, it would say so in the feat. Versatile Spellcaster does not say so, so you are still bound by the rule I quoted. This argument is over, you are very, very wrong.
risner 06-17-07, 11:43 AM	1) Does a knowstone specifically mention needing a spell slot of the appropriate level before being able to cast the spell? ... treats the spell as if you know it. 2) It is in Races of the Dragon and its called "Versatile Spellcaster" ... thanks to splats we now have ways to do so. 3) And what changes at 4th level to allow a heightened charm person to function? It still isn't a 2nd level spell known and you're still using 1st level slots to power it. 1) Knowstone adds the spell to your spells known. A 2nd level Knowstone doesn't do a 1st level Sorcerer any good, but it would help a 4th level Sorcerer that has 2nd level spell slots. 2) False, you are wrong, sorry. Please post the rule in the PHB that allows 1st level Sorcerers to cast 2nd level spells or shut up. 3) False, a 4th level Sorcerer has 2nd level spell slots so his heightened Charm Person is +1+1 = +2 or 2nd level. It would reside in his 2nd level slot or he could burn two of his 1st level slots to pay for it via V.S. Simple logic, and hard to refute. Please, post the rule in the PHB or the SRD that allows your interpretation. I take the refusal to post this rule as a hint that you know of no such rule. If you know you are wrong, why are you posting? Naw, you are right, so just post the rule proving you are right. Please. Except for Knowstones, Ultimate Magus, Extra Spell feat, etc. There are exceptions to the rules of the PHB in other books. Deal with it. Except that Extra Spell can't add any spell not already on your class spell list and the other things don't do anything special like what you are arguing here.
stoicfaux 06-17-07, 12:26 PM	This feeds into my other argument "You can either heighten with versatile spellcaster or you can't" regardless of level. A 4th level sorcerer couldn't heighten charm person any more than he could at 1st level with versatile spellcaster. A 4th level Sorcerer should be able to. Use Versatile Spellcaster to burn two 0th level spells to cast a first level spell. Apply Heighten to make the spell 2nd level. You would need an open 2nd level slot to make this work, because metamagic requires spell slots.
EvilVegan 06-17-07, 02:01 PM	But Versatile Spellcaster does not make such an exception. If it did, it would say so in the feat. Versatile Spellcaster does not say so, so you are still bound by the rule I quoted. This argument is over, you are very, very wrong.No, I am not. At least not for the reasons you are saying I'm wrong. The rules you quoted have nothing to do with the rules as they apply to my question, and you simply stating I'm wrong also does not prove anything. Thank you for trying, but you're going to need more information that refutes what I am saying. Such as on page 88 of the PHB where it says you have to put a heightened spell into a higher level spell slot. This prevents the use of any metamagic with versatile spellcaster, but does not preclude the use of other options to add spells to your spells known at levels you can't yet access. Such as knowstones. . . 1) Knowstone adds the spell to your spells known. A 2nd level Knowstone doesn't do a 1st level Sorcerer any good, but it would help a 4th level Sorcerer that has 2nd level spell slots.It does if he has an ability to cast a higher level spell that he knows using lower level slots via Versatile Spellcaster. Versatile spellcaster doesn't require higher level slots, so if the knowstone doesn't require higher level slots, it would work fine. I imagine that it does specifically state that it needs slots to function, but I already told you I don't have information on Knowstones. Dragon Magazine is typically a stupid source for new material anyway. 2) False, you are wrong, sorry. Please post the rule in the PHB that allows 1st level Sorcerers to cast 2nd level spells or shut up.Please post something, anything, from anywhere that shows I am wrong. You keep saying I'm wrong and need to shut up without POSTING ANYTHING RELEVANT. If a Knowstone adds to your spells known at a higher level it 100% meets the requirements of Versatile Spellcaster. You would need to add something to the RAW for it NOT to work. I don't have the information on a Knowstone, so I'm taking your word for it that it adds the spell to your spells known. I imagine that you're leaving out part of the rules on knowstones that would preclude its use, but that's not really my fault. 3) False, a 4th level Sorcerer has 2nd level spell slots so his heightened Charm Person is +1+1 = +2 or 2nd level. It would reside in his 2nd level slot or he could burn two of his 1st level slots to pay for it via V.S.If you can use versatile spellcaster to duplicate a slot to heighten a spell to 2nd level, then you can do so just as well at 1st level. The only other option (and the correct reading of the RAW) is that you CANNOT cast a heightened spell relying solely on Versatile spellcaster at any level. Simple logic, and hard to refute. Please, post the rule in the PHB or the SRD that allows your interpretation. I take the refusal to post this rule as a hint that you know of no such rule. If you know you are wrong, why are you posting? Naw, you are right, so just post the rule proving you are right. Please. The HINT may have been when I said there was no such rule. I said that Versatile Spellcaster overrides the rule in the PHB, much as Extra spell overrides the PHB rule on sorcerers gaining new spells. Just because it isn't in the PHB doesn't mean it isn't 100% RAW. That is what new rulebooks sometimes do, rework material/rules. Please try and keep up with what I'm saying before refuting things I'm not claiming. The fact is that you can't heighten a spell via versatile spellcaster, regardless of your level. This is because versatile spellcaster doesn't specifically create a higher level spell slot, it merely lets you cast a higher level spell that you know with lower level slots. If you know a higher level spell (via knowstones or another source) then you would be able to cast those spells via versatile spellcaster. There is 100% no reason you would not be able to do so within the RAW, anything you decide from that point forward would be a houserule. More power to ya. Personally I think that at 4th level you should be able to heighten a charm person via versatile spellcaster, and that means that you would also be able to do so at 1st level (there is absolutely no mechanical difference between the two scenarios). Except that Extra Spell can't add any spell not already on your class spell list and the other things don't do anything special like what you are arguing here.I didn't say that it did let you use it for Versatile Spellcaster, it was an example of a PHB rule being overridden by splat book feat. I was waiting on you for information on knowstones, and if what you posted is correct then you can use them as I am stating within the RAW, with no questions about the validity. A 4th level Sorcerer should be able to. Use Versatile Spellcaster to burn two 0th level spells to cast a first level spell. Apply Heighten to make the spell 2nd level. You would need an open 2nd level slot to make this work, because metamagic requires spell slots.? I don't see how this would work. You'd use 2 0th level slots and a 2nd level slot to cast a 2nd level spell? Because you heighten the spell to the level it is cast as by putting it in a higher level slot. The way you're saying looks like it would take 2 0th level slots and 1 2nd level slot. Otherwise you could add any number of metamagics. For instance if you had a 6th level slot available and you used 2 0th level slots to cast an empowered maximized magic missile or a heightened +5 charm person. It just doesn't work like that. Or does it. . . muahahahah!
NobodyRemembersThis 06-17-07, 02:23 PM	A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way.When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct.You can't use a secondary source (non-SRD) to justify another secondary source. Consequently, unless the feat itself directly contradicts the SRD I have provided as proof against your claim, then there is no exception. I have proved that you cannot use versatile spellcaster the way you want. Just now, in this post. I have provided SRD facts to back my arguement. You have not.
stoicfaux 06-17-07, 02:24 PM	? I don't see how this would work. You'd use 2 0th level slots and a 2nd level slot to cast a 2nd level spell? Because you heighten the spell to the level it is cast as by putting it in a higher level slot. The way you're saying looks like it would take 2 0th level slots and 1 2nd level slot. Correct. Otherwise you could add any number of metamagics. For instance if you had a 6th level slot available and you used 2 0th level slots to cast an empowered maximized magic missile or a heightened +5 charm person. It just doesn't work like that. Or does it. . . muahahahah! It should work unless the Versatile Spellcaster feat requires an action. Applying metamagic to a Sorcerer spell makes it a full round casting (again refer to page 88.)
Kalarus 06-17-07, 06:20 PM	The HINT may have been when I said there was no such rule. I said that Versatile Spellcaster overrides the rule in the PHB, much as Extra spell overrides the PHB rule on sorcerers gaining new spells. Just because it isn't in the PHB doesn't mean it isn't 100% RAW. That is what new rulebooks sometimes do, rework material/rules. Actually if I recall correctly, where rule conflicts occur, primary sources are always correct. Primary sources means Core rules. Feats and such can add things to Core rules, that is why they're called supplements. They cannot alter.
risner 06-17-07, 09:09 PM	The rules you quoted have nothing to do with the rules as they apply to my question, and you simply stating I'm wrong also does not prove anything. I (and others) have posted numerous times the rules that prove (without a shadow of doubt) that you are wrong. Put up or shut up, post the rule allowing Sorcerers (or any spell caster) to cast spells higher level than they can cast. There isn't a single way to accomplish this in the game. The closest is Precocious Apprentice, but it doesn't allow you to cast the spell (just activate it with a caster level check.) Post the rule or stop trying to shove your house rule off as a rule.
EvilVegan 06-19-07, 06:37 PM	A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way.When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct.You can't use a secondary source (non-SRD) to justify another secondary source. Consequently, unless the feat itself directly contradicts the SRD I have provided as proof against your claim, then there is no exception. I have proved that you cannot use versatile spellcaster the way you want. Just now, in this post. I have provided SRD facts to back my arguement. You have not.I'm sorry to say that this post does not in any way contradict or disallow what I've been saying. The only thing that disallows what I've said is that heighten spell requires a spell slot of a higher level and Versatile Spellcaster doesn't create a spell slot. It has nothing to do with when a spellcaster can add spells to his known spells. The only thing it does have an affect on is possibly knowstones and the other instances where new rules text specifically overrides what you've posted in exactly the way it states it needs to override it. In other words, there is no point to what you just posted. It doesn't prove anything at all. It shows you know how to find information in the SRD, thats about it. If you know the spell (through one of the many means that does specifically override the PHB text, or levelling) and it is higher level, you can use 2 lower level slots to cast it via Versatile Spellcaster. The end. What you are stating follows does not follow from what you posted.
EvilVegan 06-19-07, 06:52 PM	I (and others) have posted numerous times the rules that prove (without a shadow of doubt) that you are wrong. Put up or shut up, post the rule allowing Sorcerers (or any spell caster) to cast spells higher level than they can cast. There isn't a single way to accomplish this in the game. The closest is Precocious Apprentice, but it doesn't allow you to cast the spell (just activate it with a caster level check.) Post the rule or stop trying to shove your house rule off as a rule. Are you being purposefully obtuse? 1) I've already conceded the point on heighten spell and requested more information from you on knowstones. If you don't want to provide said information or don't have it then I guess the point is moot and my case rests fully within RAW with the information You provided. If they do add a spell to your spells known regardless of any other factor then they meet the requirements of Versatile Spellcaster, ie "a spell you know of a higher level". These are all if statements that I cannot personally answer, since I don't have access to the subject matter, as I dislike dragon magazine as a source for anything. But if all the IF's are correct, then versatile spellcaster is the rule that allows "sorcerers to cast spells higher level than they can cast", simply because of how it is worded. Versatile Spellcaster "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher." IF knowstones give you access to a spell "KNOWN" at a level one level higher than you normally have access to, every word of the feat allows you to cast it. If that isn't how knowstones works I don't care. But until you show that that isn't how knowstones work I'm going to have to assume that it is. I would never use them, nor would I force anyone else to, but the fact is with the information you provided it is fully within RAW. 2) You never posted anything that would lead me to concede the point on heighten + versatile spellcaster. You stated things you felt solved the argument, but were really semantics and had nothing to do with RAW, then called me wrong and told me to shut up. 3) You can't use versatile spellcaster to cast a metamagic spell unless it has +0 adjustments to level, at any class level. If you can do so at 4th level you would just as easily be able to do so at 1st level, there is absolutely no mechanical difference. Nothing magically happens at 4th level to make a heightened charm person "a higher level spell that you know" any more than it was at 1st level. You get slots in which you can cast the spell, but that doesn't mean it fulfills the requirements of Versatile Spellcaster, which allows it only to cast 2nd level spells you know, not heightened spells in 2nd level slots, or any metamagic really. 4) I am not shoving "my house rule" on anyone. The title of this thread is "CAN I USE VERSATILE SPELLCASTER... not, "everyone must use versatile spellcaster. . ." Up until a few posts ago, no one had posted anything that disallowed what I was claiming, other than their interpretations and house rules of how things should work. Get over it.
risner 06-19-07, 11:00 PM	4) I am not shoving "my house rule" on anyone. The title of this thread is "CAN I USE VERSATILE SPELLCASTER... not, "everyone must use versatile spellcaster. . ." Up until a few posts ago, no one had posted anything that disallowed what I was claiming, other than their interpretations and house rules of how things should work. Wow, I am glad we got that settled. Back to some normality, now that we all agree RAW, Versatile Spellcaster can not allow you to use two of your highest level slots to cast a spell higher level than you can cast. As I said, RAW clearly disallows what you asked in your first post.