Can I use Limited Wish when crafting a magic item if I don't know a needed spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can I use Limited Wish when crafting a magic item if I don't know a needed spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mustapha Mond
10-01-03, 11:13 AM The subject line says it all: Can I use Limited Wish when crafting a magic item if I don't know a needed spell?

Here's the low down: I'm thinking of taking Craft Staff for my sorcerer's 15th-level feat. However, I was reading through the item creation section of the DMG and I saw that in order to craft anything, you need to know the actual spells. I'd been under the impression (don't know why) that having the spells on scroll would be good enough, but it seems that's not the case.

This makes item creation feats really suck for sorcerers. Unless your character just wants to be a weapons factory (making items just to sell them), there's no point in crafting items that don't do anything but duplicate your innate abilities. Like, at 15th level, I can already cast Fireball a dozen times per day, why would I need a wand or staff to do that? Why would I need boots of flying or a ring of invisibility when I can already cast those spells over and over again for free?

So, since Limited Wish can duplicate any spell (of certain level and lower), can I use it instead of actually knowing a needed spell? Given that LW's XP cost significantly raises the total XP cost of crafting an item, it seems like this should be a fair trade, but I'd like to know what other's think, and I'd also like to know if there's ever been any official ruling on this. Otherwise it's back to the drawing board to pick a different feat.

Thanks in advance.
tarkin
10-01-03, 11:15 AM No.

The pre-requsiste is knowing the spell and using the slot.

When making a magic item you do not actually cast the spell.

While Limited Wish lets you cast spells you do not know, it does not allow you to temporarily know the spell.

You have two choices:

1) Use up scrolls/Pay someone that knows the spell to assist you - you pay the xp costs, they do not, but their spell is used for the day they help you.

2) Use a full wish to make the item - this is horrendously expensive xp wise.

And you are correct, Sorceror are less likely to make a magic item - but some do it using method #1.
chonjurer
10-01-03, 01:44 PM Originally posted by tarkin
No.

The pre-requsiste is knowing the spell and using the slot.
You don't have to use the slot in 3.5, and in 3.0 you can use LW (and 3.5 is a little unclear).

Now 3.5 is a little different and you don't even have to use up the slot when crafting - you just have to know it. (and apparently you can get another caster to cooperate with you - they just have to know the spell but not cast it)

[edit: added 3.5 info]
bitnine
10-01-03, 01:50 PM Me believes that the FAQ has stated that you can use magic items to fulfill spell requirements for item creation and/or have other casters provide the spell for you.
Mustapha Mond
10-01-03, 08:06 PM Hold the phone. Can you use scrolls as a substitute for knowing the spells? The whole reason I got started on the limited wish thing is because the DMG specifically says you "must have the spell prepared (or must know the spell in the case of a sorcerer or bard." But if there's an exception to that, and I can use scrolls instead, then that changes everything.
chonjurer
10-01-03, 08:17 PM Most definitively you can. 3.0 and 3.5 are both quite clear on this issue.
Mustapha Mond
10-01-03, 08:22 PM Originally posted by chonjurer
Most definitively you can. 3.0 and 3.5 are both quite clear on this issue.

Ah! Page 282 in the 3.5 DMG. That'll teach me to do all my reading before freaking out. Thanks.

:)
GhostDog
10-08-03, 10:15 PM so what feat did you wind up taking?

Ghost Dog
Mustapha Mond
10-08-03, 11:51 PM Originally posted by GhostDog
so what feat did you wind up taking?

Ghost Dog

I took Heighten Spell instead. It was a tough choice. The reason I decided against Craft Staff was because the DMG implies that only certain kinds of staffs can be made, and that staffs need to be built around a sort of theme. While I didn't see a specific rule for this, it does seem that staffs are not intended to be a repository for random spells, which is really what would make them most useful to me as a sorcerer. I still love the idea of having a super cool badass staff, but ultimately I didn't feel it was worth spending a feat on. (To make up for it, I'm gonna play a wizard next chance I get and spend every feat and every drop of XP on making magic items.)
Edymnion
10-09-03, 12:04 AM Originally posted by Mustapha Mond
I took Heighten Spell instead. It was a tough choice. The reason I decided against Craft Staff was because the DMG implies that only certain kinds of staffs can be made, and that staffs need to be built around a sort of theme. While I didn't see a specific rule for this, it does seem that staffs are not intended to be a repository for random spells, which is really what would make them most useful to me as a sorcerer. I still love the idea of having a super cool badass staff, but ultimately I didn't feel it was worth spending a feat on. (To make up for it, I'm gonna play a wizard next chance I get and spend every feat and every drop of XP on making magic items.) Staves are usually themed, but just what that theme is can vary widely. You could simply have your staff's theme be "Loads of kick butt spells to blow your hiney to the moon with" and stuff it full of fireballs and cones of cold if you wanted.

Other than that, you can put any spells you like into the staff, just as long as you price it out accourdingly. DMG 3.5 has most of the rules, or you can go back to the 3.0 Tome & Blood for the original rules (and some that I believe didn't make it into the 3.5 DMG). Its got all the stuff you need for crafting staves.
Laszlo Koller
10-09-03, 12:06 AM Mustapha Mond:

In your original post you asked, "...I'd like to know what other's think...".

Well, I haven't done the research that some of the other posters have, but... I think that I agree with you. A limited wish spell is exactly that, a wish with some limits. If you're desired effect falls within the range prescribed by the limited wish spell, then I'd say go for it. Your sorcerer is ready to open his (or her) "My Sorcerer's Staves Only Boutique".

But... that's just my 2 cents. Remember, no matter what the rest of us clowns say, it's your game--do whatever you want. Happy gaming.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mustapha Mond 10-01-03, 11:13 AM	The subject line says it all: Can I use Limited Wish when crafting a magic item if I don't know a needed spell? Here's the low down: I'm thinking of taking Craft Staff for my sorcerer's 15th-level feat. However, I was reading through the item creation section of the DMG and I saw that in order to craft anything, you need to know the actual spells. I'd been under the impression (don't know why) that having the spells on scroll would be good enough, but it seems that's not the case. This makes item creation feats really suck for sorcerers. Unless your character just wants to be a weapons factory (making items just to sell them), there's no point in crafting items that don't do anything but duplicate your innate abilities. Like, at 15th level, I can already cast Fireball a dozen times per day, why would I need a wand or staff to do that? Why would I need boots of flying or a ring of invisibility when I can already cast those spells over and over again for free? So, since Limited Wish can duplicate any spell (of certain level and lower), can I use it instead of actually knowing a needed spell? Given that LW's XP cost significantly raises the total XP cost of crafting an item, it seems like this should be a fair trade, but I'd like to know what other's think, and I'd also like to know if there's ever been any official ruling on this. Otherwise it's back to the drawing board to pick a different feat. Thanks in advance.
tarkin 10-01-03, 11:15 AM	No. The pre-requsiste is knowing the spell and using the slot. When making a magic item you do not actually cast the spell. While Limited Wish lets you cast spells you do not know, it does not allow you to temporarily know the spell. You have two choices: 1) Use up scrolls/Pay someone that knows the spell to assist you - you pay the xp costs, they do not, but their spell is used for the day they help you. 2) Use a full wish to make the item - this is horrendously expensive xp wise. And you are correct, Sorceror are less likely to make a magic item - but some do it using method #1.
chonjurer 10-01-03, 01:44 PM	Originally posted by tarkin No. The pre-requsiste is knowing the spell and using the slot. You don't have to use the slot in 3.5, and in 3.0 you can use LW (and 3.5 is a little unclear). Now 3.5 is a little different and you don't even have to use up the slot when crafting - you just have to know it. (and apparently you can get another caster to cooperate with you - they just have to know the spell but not cast it) [edit: added 3.5 info]
bitnine 10-01-03, 01:50 PM	Me believes that the FAQ has stated that you can use magic items to fulfill spell requirements for item creation and/or have other casters provide the spell for you.
Mustapha Mond 10-01-03, 08:06 PM	Hold the phone. Can you use scrolls as a substitute for knowing the spells? The whole reason I got started on the limited wish thing is because the DMG specifically says you "must have the spell prepared (or must know the spell in the case of a sorcerer or bard." But if there's an exception to that, and I can use scrolls instead, then that changes everything.
chonjurer 10-01-03, 08:17 PM	Most definitively you can. 3.0 and 3.5 are both quite clear on this issue.
Mustapha Mond 10-01-03, 08:22 PM	Originally posted by chonjurer Most definitively you can. 3.0 and 3.5 are both quite clear on this issue. Ah! Page 282 in the 3.5 DMG. That'll teach me to do all my reading before freaking out. Thanks. :)
GhostDog 10-08-03, 10:15 PM	so what feat did you wind up taking? Ghost Dog
Mustapha Mond 10-08-03, 11:51 PM	Originally posted by GhostDog so what feat did you wind up taking? Ghost Dog I took Heighten Spell instead. It was a tough choice. The reason I decided against Craft Staff was because the DMG implies that only certain kinds of staffs can be made, and that staffs need to be built around a sort of theme. While I didn't see a specific rule for this, it does seem that staffs are not intended to be a repository for random spells, which is really what would make them most useful to me as a sorcerer. I still love the idea of having a super cool badass staff, but ultimately I didn't feel it was worth spending a feat on. (To make up for it, I'm gonna play a wizard next chance I get and spend every feat and every drop of XP on making magic items.)
Edymnion 10-09-03, 12:04 AM	Originally posted by Mustapha Mond I took Heighten Spell instead. It was a tough choice. The reason I decided against Craft Staff was because the DMG implies that only certain kinds of staffs can be made, and that staffs need to be built around a sort of theme. While I didn't see a specific rule for this, it does seem that staffs are not intended to be a repository for random spells, which is really what would make them most useful to me as a sorcerer. I still love the idea of having a super cool badass staff, but ultimately I didn't feel it was worth spending a feat on. (To make up for it, I'm gonna play a wizard next chance I get and spend every feat and every drop of XP on making magic items.) Staves are usually themed, but just what that theme is can vary widely. You could simply have your staff's theme be "Loads of kick butt spells to blow your hiney to the moon with" and stuff it full of fireballs and cones of cold if you wanted. Other than that, you can put any spells you like into the staff, just as long as you price it out accourdingly. DMG 3.5 has most of the rules, or you can go back to the 3.0 Tome & Blood for the original rules (and some that I believe didn't make it into the 3.5 DMG). Its got all the stuff you need for crafting staves.
Laszlo Koller 10-09-03, 12:06 AM	Mustapha Mond: In your original post you asked, "...I'd like to know what other's think...". Well, I haven't done the research that some of the other posters have, but... I think that I agree with you. A limited wish spell is exactly that, a wish with some limits. If you're desired effect falls within the range prescribed by the limited wish spell, then I'd say go for it. Your sorcerer is ready to open his (or her) "My Sorcerer's Staves Only Boutique". But... that's just my 2 cents. Remember, no matter what the rest of us clowns say, it's your game--do whatever you want. Happy gaming.