Can I walk on an illusiniary floor? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can I walk on an illusiniary floor? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Everach
10-17-03, 11:03 AM Persistent Image mentions "tacticle" senses. I'm assuming that means touch. So, can I walk on a persistent image without falling?

If not, is there any illusionary of shadow spell that would create a floor that you fall through ONLY if you MAKE your will save?
Talchar
10-17-03, 11:20 AM Sure you can, as long as your character was a "tune" and did not study law like bugs bunny.

As too your second question, the Shades spell could do what you ask.
Risa
10-17-03, 11:32 AM The Image series spells can't support anything. A shadow conjured effect may.
Seeker95
10-17-03, 11:59 AM I just read through the description of Persistent Image. I cannot find the word 'tacticle' (tactile) or 'touch' in its description. It mentions visual, olfactory, and thermal components. In effect, it has absolutely no tactile/touch component.

Are you thinking of a different spell?
Everach
10-17-03, 12:00 PM I found he SRD quote that says glamers won't support weight.

Regarding shades/shadow conjuration: If you disbelieve the illusion, could you walk through a shadow conjuration wall of stone?
Everach
10-17-03, 12:01 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
I just read through the description of Persistent Image. I cannot find the word 'tacticle' (tactile) or 'touch' in its description. It mentions visual, olfactory, and thermal components. In effect, it has absolutely no tactile/touch component.

Are you thinking of a different spell?

I can't find it either. You right, I wrong.
Seeker95
10-17-03, 01:38 PM Do not consider it a matter or right or wrong. Rather, it was a mis-read only. And you raised a question of importance in any case:

In what ways can illusions be used to create "supportable" reality?
little black bill
11-10-03, 09:23 PM i thought there were diffrent types of illusions.
Bloodtide_the_Red
11-10-03, 10:43 PM The way the are described it looks like the vairous [shadow] type illusion spells can create things you can walk on, if you fail your save. Shadow conjuration and shadow evocation(and the rest) all have the 'have normal effects, except against thoes who disbelieve them.' So if I create a wall of force, with greater shadow evocation and you believe it, then you can't walk through it. And you could climb my force ladder(MoF).

Well, the shadow illusions are 'quasi-real', so guess they could hold weight and block things.

BT
Seeker95
11-11-03, 08:09 AM You can fail any save you want to fail. So if shadow-magic is used to create the illusion of a floor / bridge, then you could walk across it, even if you saw your buddy cast it. Just "fail your save".
Everach
11-11-03, 09:13 AM Originally posted by Seeker95
You can fail any save you want to fail. So if shadow-magic is used to create the illusion of a floor / bridge, then you could walk across it, even if you saw your buddy cast it. Just "fail your save".

So...I could build a bridge over a chasm, run across, and then tell anyone chasing me "it's not real! disbelieve!"
Adrez Nesnsid
11-11-03, 09:52 AM Originally posted by Talchar
Sure you can, as long as your character was a "tune" and did not study law like bugs bunny.

As too your second question, the Shades spell could do what you ask.

The shortened form of "Cartoon Character" is spelled with two O's, not with a 'u' and an 'n'

(It's spelled 'toon' not 'tune')
Luminous Crayon
11-11-03, 10:51 AM Originally posted by Everach
So...I could build a bridge over a chasm, run across, and then tell anyone chasing me "it's not real! disbelieve!"

You could dismiss your spell while they were in the middle of the bridge, whether they caught on to the illusion or not. The wise do not charge across bridges conjured by shifty enemy mages.
Shadowfax7
11-11-03, 11:30 AM I would have a hard time allowing someone to walk across a bridge conjured by Shadow magic, if the person either knows it is an illusion or has seen it cast . . . I would think you could not automatically fail your save as you could not make yourself believe it if you know it is not really there. :rolleyes:

My 2 cp.
da chicken
11-11-03, 11:46 AM Originally posted by Everach
Regarding shades/shadow conjuration: If you disbelieve the illusion, could you walk through a shadow conjuration wall of stone?

No. Shadow spells are semi-real. There's actual substance there. Such material would be porportionately weaker, however, so the object created would have (for example) 40% the hardness and hit points of a normal stone wall and (for simplicity's sake) be able to support 40% the weight of a normal stone structure.
startide
11-11-03, 11:53 AM you definitely can't choose to fail a save in order to disbelieve an illusion that you cast yourself. you cast the thing, you HAVE to know it is an illusion.
Everach
11-11-03, 11:55 AM Originally posted by da chicken
No. Shadow spells are semi-real. There's actual substance there. Such material would be porportionately weaker, however, so the object created would have (for example) 40% the hardness and hit points of a normal stone wall and (for simplicity's sake) be able to support 40% the weight of a normal stone structure.

Aha! Now we're back where we started.

I'm trying to build a creature's lair with walls that appear real to the five sense, but can be disbelieved and therefore walked through.

What spell in the D20 system can provide me with that?
Bopple
11-11-03, 12:49 PM 5th level spell, "Mirage Arcana" is the one that offers tactile sense.
Though you must define how much weight this 'tactile' illusion can hold.
(imo, its maximum should be less than 1kgm)
Everach
11-11-03, 01:26 PM Originally posted by Bopple
5th level spell, "Mirage Arcana" is the one that offers tactile sense.

From the SRD:
"
Mirage Arcana
Illusion (Glamer)
This spell functions like hallucinatory terrain, except that it enables you to make any area appear to be something other than it is. The illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements. Unlike hallucinatory terrain, the spell can alter the appearance of structures (or add them where none are present). Still, it can’t disguise, conceal, or add creatures (though creatures within the area might hide themselves within the illusion just as they can hide themselves within a real location).
"

It says it can creature structures, but its still a glamer.

Also from the SRD:
"
Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
"

So...Mirage Arcana CAN NOT support weight, but it CAN provide tactile elements. So, rock could feel like wood, but it can't make solid walls where they don't exist.

Any one else wanna take a stab at the big question? How do I make solid walls that can be disbelieved?
da chicken
11-11-03, 02:27 PM Illusionary wall will work just fine for the walls. They will appear to all inspection to be real walls. Touching them would grant a save, but failure would mean you would think they restrict your movement. Of course, if you charged the wall you'd still go right through it.

Ultimately, you're DM. Who cares if there's an existing spell to do what you want? Maybe it exists, but the PC's don't now about it. It doesn't really matter; you're the DM. Make the world function as you want. The player's can't replicate the abilities of half the monsters they meet. Why should they expect to replicate all the spell effects they find?
Luminous Crayon
11-11-03, 03:43 PM Originally posted by Everach
Any one else wanna take a stab at the big question? How do I make solid walls that can be disbelieved?

Make something up. You're the DM; you're allowed to, after all. Make a new spell based on the Shadow Conjuration spells, perhaps, that works on a much bigger scale, but is limited to producing walls, floors, ceilings, and other structural tidbits.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Everach 10-17-03, 11:03 AM	Persistent Image mentions "tacticle" senses. I'm assuming that means touch. So, can I walk on a persistent image without falling? If not, is there any illusionary of shadow spell that would create a floor that you fall through ONLY if you MAKE your will save?
Talchar 10-17-03, 11:20 AM	Sure you can, as long as your character was a "tune" and did not study law like bugs bunny. As too your second question, the Shades spell could do what you ask.
Risa 10-17-03, 11:32 AM	The Image series spells can't support anything. A shadow conjured effect may.
Seeker95 10-17-03, 11:59 AM	I just read through the description of Persistent Image. I cannot find the word 'tacticle' (tactile) or 'touch' in its description. It mentions visual, olfactory, and thermal components. In effect, it has absolutely no tactile/touch component. Are you thinking of a different spell?
Everach 10-17-03, 12:00 PM	I found he SRD quote that says glamers won't support weight. Regarding shades/shadow conjuration: If you disbelieve the illusion, could you walk through a shadow conjuration wall of stone?
Everach 10-17-03, 12:01 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 I just read through the description of Persistent Image. I cannot find the word 'tacticle' (tactile) or 'touch' in its description. It mentions visual, olfactory, and thermal components. In effect, it has absolutely no tactile/touch component. Are you thinking of a different spell? I can't find it either. You right, I wrong.
Seeker95 10-17-03, 01:38 PM	Do not consider it a matter or right or wrong. Rather, it was a mis-read only. And you raised a question of importance in any case: In what ways can illusions be used to create "supportable" reality?
little black bill 11-10-03, 09:23 PM	i thought there were diffrent types of illusions.
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-10-03, 10:43 PM	The way the are described it looks like the vairous [shadow] type illusion spells can create things you can walk on, if you fail your save. Shadow conjuration and shadow evocation(and the rest) all have the 'have normal effects, except against thoes who disbelieve them.' So if I create a wall of force, with greater shadow evocation and you believe it, then you can't walk through it. And you could climb my force ladder(MoF). Well, the shadow illusions are 'quasi-real', so guess they could hold weight and block things. BT
Seeker95 11-11-03, 08:09 AM	You can fail any save you want to fail. So if shadow-magic is used to create the illusion of a floor / bridge, then you could walk across it, even if you saw your buddy cast it. Just "fail your save".
Everach 11-11-03, 09:13 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 You can fail any save you want to fail. So if shadow-magic is used to create the illusion of a floor / bridge, then you could walk across it, even if you saw your buddy cast it. Just "fail your save". So...I could build a bridge over a chasm, run across, and then tell anyone chasing me "it's not real! disbelieve!"
Adrez Nesnsid 11-11-03, 09:52 AM	Originally posted by Talchar Sure you can, as long as your character was a "tune" and did not study law like bugs bunny. As too your second question, the Shades spell could do what you ask. The shortened form of "Cartoon Character" is spelled with two O's, not with a 'u' and an 'n' (It's spelled 'toon' not 'tune')
Luminous Crayon 11-11-03, 10:51 AM	Originally posted by Everach So...I could build a bridge over a chasm, run across, and then tell anyone chasing me "it's not real! disbelieve!" You could dismiss your spell while they were in the middle of the bridge, whether they caught on to the illusion or not. The wise do not charge across bridges conjured by shifty enemy mages.
Shadowfax7 11-11-03, 11:30 AM	I would have a hard time allowing someone to walk across a bridge conjured by Shadow magic, if the person either knows it is an illusion or has seen it cast . . . I would think you could not automatically fail your save as you could not make yourself believe it if you know it is not really there. :rolleyes: My 2 cp.
da chicken 11-11-03, 11:46 AM	Originally posted by Everach Regarding shades/shadow conjuration: If you disbelieve the illusion, could you walk through a shadow conjuration wall of stone? No. Shadow spells are semi-real. There's actual substance there. Such material would be porportionately weaker, however, so the object created would have (for example) 40% the hardness and hit points of a normal stone wall and (for simplicity's sake) be able to support 40% the weight of a normal stone structure.
startide 11-11-03, 11:53 AM	you definitely can't choose to fail a save in order to disbelieve an illusion that you cast yourself. you cast the thing, you HAVE to know it is an illusion.
Everach 11-11-03, 11:55 AM	Originally posted by da chicken No. Shadow spells are semi-real. There's actual substance there. Such material would be porportionately weaker, however, so the object created would have (for example) 40% the hardness and hit points of a normal stone wall and (for simplicity's sake) be able to support 40% the weight of a normal stone structure. Aha! Now we're back where we started. I'm trying to build a creature's lair with walls that appear real to the five sense, but can be disbelieved and therefore walked through. What spell in the D20 system can provide me with that?
Bopple 11-11-03, 12:49 PM	5th level spell, "Mirage Arcana" is the one that offers tactile sense. Though you must define how much weight this 'tactile' illusion can hold. (imo, its maximum should be less than 1kgm)
Everach 11-11-03, 01:26 PM	Originally posted by Bopple 5th level spell, "Mirage Arcana" is the one that offers tactile sense. From the SRD: " Mirage Arcana Illusion (Glamer) This spell functions like hallucinatory terrain, except that it enables you to make any area appear to be something other than it is. The illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements. Unlike hallucinatory terrain, the spell can alter the appearance of structures (or add them where none are present). Still, it can’t disguise, conceal, or add creatures (though creatures within the area might hide themselves within the illusion just as they can hide themselves within a real location). " It says it can creature structures, but its still a glamer. Also from the SRD: " Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly. A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier. " So...Mirage Arcana CAN NOT support weight, but it CAN provide tactile elements. So, rock could feel like wood, but it can't make solid walls where they don't exist. Any one else wanna take a stab at the big question? How do I make solid walls that can be disbelieved?
da chicken 11-11-03, 02:27 PM	Illusionary wall will work just fine for the walls. They will appear to all inspection to be real walls. Touching them would grant a save, but failure would mean you would think they restrict your movement. Of course, if you charged the wall you'd still go right through it. Ultimately, you're DM. Who cares if there's an existing spell to do what you want? Maybe it exists, but the PC's don't now about it. It doesn't really matter; you're the DM. Make the world function as you want. The player's can't replicate the abilities of half the monsters they meet. Why should they expect to replicate all the spell effects they find?
Luminous Crayon 11-11-03, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by Everach Any one else wanna take a stab at the big question? How do I make solid walls that can be disbelieved? Make something up. You're the DM; you're allowed to, after all. Make a new spell based on the Shadow Conjuration spells, perhaps, that works on a much bigger scale, but is limited to producing walls, floors, ceilings, and other structural tidbits.