Can I? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Can I? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
inferno_292
07-24-05, 09:41 AM In our adventure my character is a wizard is there any way that he can learn hellfire which in only classed as a diabolical level 4 spell?
Szatany
07-24-05, 10:27 AM In our adventure my character is a wizard is there any way that he can learn hellfire which in only classed as a diabolical level 4 spell?
If you play by the rules he can't, unless he has some ranks in UMD and possesses the scroll with hellfire spell.
inferno_292
07-24-05, 10:42 AM ok mind if i ask what an umd?
Egres
07-24-05, 10:45 AM ok mind if i ask what an umd?
Use Magic Device.
Molot
07-24-05, 11:52 AM UMD would allow him to read this spell and cast it from scroll, but he still wouldn't be able to write it to his spellbook, cast it or use as one of his spells in any way.

There is a feat "Additional Spell". When you taking it, you may select spell form any spellist, so you can do it with hellfire. Then, you would known this spell as one of your own spells. I'm not sure if you could cast it. If it has "caster's diabolic blood" or sth like that as a focus, you would have to make umd checks to cast it. If it has diabolic blood only as an requirement for taking this spell, then "Additional Spell" feat overcomes that and you would not have any future problems.
Szatany
07-24-05, 12:10 PM There is a feat "Additional Spell".
Where is this feat? I don't recall any of that name.
Mitrilvich
07-24-05, 12:19 PM It's called "Extra Spell" and you can find it in "Tome and Blood" pag 40 or "Complete Arcana" pag 79.
Molot
07-24-05, 12:28 PM Where is this feat? I don't recall any of that name.
Sorry, my mistake with the name. It is Extra Spell from Complete Arcane. But you cannot buy spells from your higedt accesible spell level using this feat.
Reading it's description, it seems like it would solve all posssible problems with Hellfire spell.
Grelin69
07-24-05, 12:53 PM Hellfire, diabolical level 4 spell? is that a cleric domain spell? if so then Extra spell wont work, if it's an Arcane spell then it will.
Molot
07-24-05, 02:28 PM Hellfire, diabolical level 4 spell? is that a cleric domain spell? if so then Extra spell wont work, if it's an Arcane spell then it will.In "Extra Spell" description there is nothing to stop it from working on domain spells. More, it explicity says that this feat is used to get acces to spells you couldn't have in any other way.
Szatany
07-24-05, 02:58 PM I have a feeling that you can't use extra spell to learn something outside your list. I know it doesn't distinctly say so, but I can't shake the feeling that it was made for sorcerers to know more spells (from their list). The part about lacking access might as well mean that the wizard can learn spells from prohibited schools with this feat. The problem with taking spells that belong to other classes is when you pick a spell that has different levels for different classes. If a spell says clr3/bard2, which level do you use?
Molot
07-24-05, 03:12 PM I have a feeling that you can't use extra spell to learn something outside your list. I know it doesn't distinctly say so, but I can't shake the feeling that it was made for sorcerers to know more spells (from their list).Feelings are feelings. You may use them when you are DM'ing, and that's all. Rules does not prohibit getting spells from different spellists with this feat, so if DM will not decide otherwise one can do it if he wants to.

The part about lacking access might as well mean that the wizard can learn spells from prohibited schools with this feat.But they can know them. They just can't cast/use them.

The problem with taking spells that belong to other classes is when you pick a spell that has different levels for different classes. If a spell says clr3/bard2, which level do you use?The one I prefer to (if no other guidelines), the one it was for my teacher (if bard was teaching my character, it's 2; if cleric, it's 3), or the one my DM says it is (as he can always do that).
smrtgmp
07-24-05, 03:23 PM I think Molot may be correct here.

The feat description says "[f]or classes such as a wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research."

Given that they could freely research any spell on the sor/wiz list, it seems to me that this feat would allow you to take a spell from another spell list. Nothing in the feat prohibits it. In fact, it says that you can choose any spell, provided its level is one lower than the max you can cast.
Molot
07-24-05, 03:35 PM I think Molot may be correct here.All people I've talked about this thinks that way...

The feat description saysI didn't quoted that since it is not Open Game Content. But maybe small part may be considered "fair use". I dunno ;)

Given that they could freely research any spell on the sor/wiz list, it seems to me that this feat would allow you to take a spell from another spell list. Nothing in the feat prohibits it. In fact, it says that you can choose any spell, provided its level is one lower than the max you can cast.That's the way many people interprets it. Aslo, it was not errated or anything, so there is (probably) nothing to clarify or correct with that feat.
smrtgmp
07-24-05, 03:59 PM I didn't quoted that since it is not Open Game Content. But maybe small part may be considered "fair use". I dunno ;)I was hoping that since I only posted part of the feat it would be OK. Besides, it doesnt give all the info and it was relevant to the conversation, so what the hey.

If one of the Wiz_O's, in all their infinite wisdom, feels I posted too much, then I apologize. :)
Grelin69
07-24-05, 07:05 PM Feelings are feelings. You may use them when you are DM'ing, and that's all. Rules does not prohibit getting spells from different spellists with this feat, so if DM will not decide otherwise one can do it if he wants to.
This feat has been brought up in other threads but let me present you with this situation and see if you change your mind.

A wizard upon gaining level 12 and a new feat decides to use Extra spell to learn Raise dead from the cleric spell list. Since as stated in the PHB A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory. it would be assumed that raise dead is now in the wizards book or else he could only cast the spell once. Now a wizard friend comes along and he tells him about his new revalation and lets him use his book to learn the new spell he has in it.
SRD:
15 + spell level, Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours.
He makes the roll and now has raise dead in his book which is now arcane and he can memorize. Now the 2 wizards seeing the usefullness of this open an arcane school with the only requirement being that the new members must use their next feat on Extra spell to pick a cleric spell and add it to the schools library making it available to all members of the school. Now within a year or maybe even months EVERY spell but level 9 cleric spells are now arcane spells available to all wizards.

Now....if you believe that this feat allows a mage to learn any spell of any list then good luck with how magic corrupt your world will become.
Lord shadow35
07-24-05, 08:11 PM I think the situation you bring up is funny. but alas you may have a piont but i see it as the samething as having it by spell mastery!
IceFractal
07-25-05, 02:09 AM Arcane Disciple gives you not one but nine Cleric spells, although with some limitations. 9 spells usable with limitations could be about equal to 1 spell with no limitations, but not if the one had to be you could already research.
smrtgmp
07-25-05, 05:15 AM @Grenlin: wizard number 2 wouldnt be able to learn the spell because it wouldnt be on his spell list (unless, of course, he took the feat).
runestar
07-25-05, 06:50 AM My 6th sense tells me an old can of worms is about to be reopened.*Where's my can opener?* By the sage ruling, extra spell cannot be used to add a spell not on your spell list, so said feat cannot be taken by a wiz to add a clerical domain spell to his spellbook. Feel free to houserule it though.

9 spells usable with limitations could be about equal to 1 spell with no limitations, but not if the one had to be you could already research.

Some is an understatement. Being wis-based could well mean half of them remaining uncastable.

The feat description says "[f]or classes such as a wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research."

That is mostly flavour. The spell animate dread warrior, for example, is available only to Ssass Tzam and his apprentices, so a non-red wizard would theoratically be unable to learn it except save for extra spell feat.
Grelin69
07-25-05, 07:19 AM smrtgmp: wizard number 2 wouldnt be able to learn the spell because it wouldnt be on his spell list (unless, of course, he took the feat).
So if a wizard researches a new spell then no other wizard can ever learn it unless they take the feat?
smrtgmp
07-25-05, 12:54 PM That is mostly flavour. The spell animate dread warrior, for example, is available only to Ssass Tzam and his apprentices, so a non-red wizard would theoratically be unable to learn it except save for extra spell feat.I diagree. Anything in the benefit line of a feat should not be concidered flavor text, IMO. Besides, there is nothing preventing a wizard from researching a dread warrior equivalent (or any other unique sor/wiz spell) on his own.

So if a wizard researches a new spell then no other wizard can ever learn it unless they take the feat?No, because such a spell would be a wizard/sorcerer spell to begin with. Thats how I would run it anyways.
Molot
07-25-05, 01:46 PM smrtgmp - I wanted to answer to a few things here, but you did that firs ;) I agree with you.

runestar - You are talking about sage ruling... I haven't read that, but since it is not an official clarification to the Complete Arcane (where this feat is), applying this rules is only an option. And not applying them is just not using an option, not a houserule in any way.

Grelin69 - I agree that wizard wanting to get spell with Extra Spell need to have a scroll with it or an other way to learn it (and write it to a spellbook). I agree that spell taken that way becomes arcane for that particular caster. But all the rest of your post is a mistake. The spell is not automatically added to a sor/wiz spellist, as smrtgmp said.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
inferno_292 07-24-05, 09:41 AM	In our adventure my character is a wizard is there any way that he can learn hellfire which in only classed as a diabolical level 4 spell?
Szatany 07-24-05, 10:27 AM	In our adventure my character is a wizard is there any way that he can learn hellfire which in only classed as a diabolical level 4 spell? If you play by the rules he can't, unless he has some ranks in UMD and possesses the scroll with hellfire spell.
inferno_292 07-24-05, 10:42 AM	ok mind if i ask what an umd?
Egres 07-24-05, 10:45 AM	ok mind if i ask what an umd? Use Magic Device.
Molot 07-24-05, 11:52 AM	UMD would allow him to read this spell and cast it from scroll, but he still wouldn't be able to write it to his spellbook, cast it or use as one of his spells in any way. There is a feat "Additional Spell". When you taking it, you may select spell form any spellist, so you can do it with hellfire. Then, you would known this spell as one of your own spells. I'm not sure if you could cast it. If it has "caster's diabolic blood" or sth like that as a focus, you would have to make umd checks to cast it. If it has diabolic blood only as an requirement for taking this spell, then "Additional Spell" feat overcomes that and you would not have any future problems.
Szatany 07-24-05, 12:10 PM	There is a feat "Additional Spell". Where is this feat? I don't recall any of that name.
Mitrilvich 07-24-05, 12:19 PM	It's called "Extra Spell" and you can find it in "Tome and Blood" pag 40 or "Complete Arcana" pag 79.
Molot 07-24-05, 12:28 PM	Where is this feat? I don't recall any of that name. Sorry, my mistake with the name. It is Extra Spell from Complete Arcane. But you cannot buy spells from your higedt accesible spell level using this feat. Reading it's description, it seems like it would solve all posssible problems with Hellfire spell.
Grelin69 07-24-05, 12:53 PM	Hellfire, diabolical level 4 spell? is that a cleric domain spell? if so then Extra spell wont work, if it's an Arcane spell then it will.
Molot 07-24-05, 02:28 PM	Hellfire, diabolical level 4 spell? is that a cleric domain spell? if so then Extra spell wont work, if it's an Arcane spell then it will.In "Extra Spell" description there is nothing to stop it from working on domain spells. More, it explicity says that this feat is used to get acces to spells you couldn't have in any other way.
Szatany 07-24-05, 02:58 PM	I have a feeling that you can't use extra spell to learn something outside your list. I know it doesn't distinctly say so, but I can't shake the feeling that it was made for sorcerers to know more spells (from their list). The part about lacking access might as well mean that the wizard can learn spells from prohibited schools with this feat. The problem with taking spells that belong to other classes is when you pick a spell that has different levels for different classes. If a spell says clr3/bard2, which level do you use?
Molot 07-24-05, 03:12 PM	I have a feeling that you can't use extra spell to learn something outside your list. I know it doesn't distinctly say so, but I can't shake the feeling that it was made for sorcerers to know more spells (from their list).Feelings are feelings. You may use them when you are DM'ing, and that's all. Rules does not prohibit getting spells from different spellists with this feat, so if DM will not decide otherwise one can do it if he wants to. The part about lacking access might as well mean that the wizard can learn spells from prohibited schools with this feat.But they can know them. They just can't cast/use them. The problem with taking spells that belong to other classes is when you pick a spell that has different levels for different classes. If a spell says clr3/bard2, which level do you use?The one I prefer to (if no other guidelines), the one it was for my teacher (if bard was teaching my character, it's 2; if cleric, it's 3), or the one my DM says it is (as he can always do that).
smrtgmp 07-24-05, 03:23 PM	I think Molot may be correct here. The feat description says "[f]or classes such as a wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research." Given that they could freely research any spell on the sor/wiz list, it seems to me that this feat would allow you to take a spell from another spell list. Nothing in the feat prohibits it. In fact, it says that you can choose any spell, provided its level is one lower than the max you can cast.
Molot 07-24-05, 03:35 PM	I think Molot may be correct here.All people I've talked about this thinks that way... The feat description saysI didn't quoted that since it is not Open Game Content. But maybe small part may be considered "fair use". I dunno ;) Given that they could freely research any spell on the sor/wiz list, it seems to me that this feat would allow you to take a spell from another spell list. Nothing in the feat prohibits it. In fact, it says that you can choose any spell, provided its level is one lower than the max you can cast.That's the way many people interprets it. Aslo, it was not errated or anything, so there is (probably) nothing to clarify or correct with that feat.
smrtgmp 07-24-05, 03:59 PM	I didn't quoted that since it is not Open Game Content. But maybe small part may be considered "fair use". I dunno ;)I was hoping that since I only posted part of the feat it would be OK. Besides, it doesnt give all the info and it was relevant to the conversation, so what the hey. If one of the Wiz_O's, in all their infinite wisdom, feels I posted too much, then I apologize. :)
Grelin69 07-24-05, 07:05 PM	Feelings are feelings. You may use them when you are DM'ing, and that's all. Rules does not prohibit getting spells from different spellists with this feat, so if DM will not decide otherwise one can do it if he wants to. This feat has been brought up in other threads but let me present you with this situation and see if you change your mind. A wizard upon gaining level 12 and a new feat decides to use Extra spell to learn Raise dead from the cleric spell list. Since as stated in the PHB A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory. it would be assumed that raise dead is now in the wizards book or else he could only cast the spell once. Now a wizard friend comes along and he tells him about his new revalation and lets him use his book to learn the new spell he has in it. SRD: 15 + spell level, Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours. He makes the roll and now has raise dead in his book which is now arcane and he can memorize. Now the 2 wizards seeing the usefullness of this open an arcane school with the only requirement being that the new members must use their next feat on Extra spell to pick a cleric spell and add it to the schools library making it available to all members of the school. Now within a year or maybe even months EVERY spell but level 9 cleric spells are now arcane spells available to all wizards. Now....if you believe that this feat allows a mage to learn any spell of any list then good luck with how magic corrupt your world will become.
Lord shadow35 07-24-05, 08:11 PM	I think the situation you bring up is funny. but alas you may have a piont but i see it as the samething as having it by spell mastery!
IceFractal 07-25-05, 02:09 AM	Arcane Disciple gives you not one but nine Cleric spells, although with some limitations. 9 spells usable with limitations could be about equal to 1 spell with no limitations, but not if the one had to be you could already research.
smrtgmp 07-25-05, 05:15 AM	@Grenlin: wizard number 2 wouldnt be able to learn the spell because it wouldnt be on his spell list (unless, of course, he took the feat).
runestar 07-25-05, 06:50 AM	My 6th sense tells me an old can of worms is about to be reopened.Where's my can opener? By the sage ruling, extra spell cannot be used to add a spell not on your spell list, so said feat cannot be taken by a wiz to add a clerical domain spell to his spellbook. Feel free to houserule it though. 9 spells usable with limitations could be about equal to 1 spell with no limitations, but not if the one had to be you could already research. Some is an understatement. Being wis-based could well mean half of them remaining uncastable. The feat description says "[f]or classes such as a wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research." That is mostly flavour. The spell animate dread warrior, for example, is available only to Ssass Tzam and his apprentices, so a non-red wizard would theoratically be unable to learn it except save for extra spell feat.
Grelin69 07-25-05, 07:19 AM	smrtgmp: wizard number 2 wouldnt be able to learn the spell because it wouldnt be on his spell list (unless, of course, he took the feat). So if a wizard researches a new spell then no other wizard can ever learn it unless they take the feat?
smrtgmp 07-25-05, 12:54 PM	That is mostly flavour. The spell animate dread warrior, for example, is available only to Ssass Tzam and his apprentices, so a non-red wizard would theoratically be unable to learn it except save for extra spell feat.I diagree. Anything in the benefit line of a feat should not be concidered flavor text, IMO. Besides, there is nothing preventing a wizard from researching a dread warrior equivalent (or any other unique sor/wiz spell) on his own. So if a wizard researches a new spell then no other wizard can ever learn it unless they take the feat?No, because such a spell would be a wizard/sorcerer spell to begin with. Thats how I would run it anyways.
Molot 07-25-05, 01:46 PM	smrtgmp - I wanted to answer to a few things here, but you did that firs ;) I agree with you. runestar - You are talking about sage ruling... I haven't read that, but since it is not an official clarification to the Complete Arcane (where this feat is), applying this rules is only an option. And not applying them is just not using an option, not a houserule in any way. Grelin69 - I agree that wizard wanting to get spell with Extra Spell need to have a scroll with it or an other way to learn it (and write it to a spellbook). I agree that spell taken that way becomes arcane for that particular caster. But all the rest of your post is a mistake. The spell is not automatically added to a sor/wiz spellist, as smrtgmp said.