Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mecha Zero 12-22-04, 08:53 PM	If A intelegent item takes a level in fighter would it add its BAB to the wielders? Can an armor use its curent owner as a host if it fails the will save to and vie for domenance? Would a weapon be able to do the same? Can such a creation pass on its gained feats to its master/owner
taltamir 12-22-04, 09:56 PM	mmm. I would say that unless the item can MOVE on its own, then it will never have or add BAB or any such thing to its weilder (from warrior levels that is... it might from magical buffs). Intelligent items talk (and dont shut up), cast spells, and give their owners powerful abilities/buffs. If giving them Character Classes, I would go with magic weilding ones, and they will have the disadvantage of HAVING to still all spells with somatic component, and if one of their powers isnt the ability to speak, then they will also have to silence others. As such they would be able to actually cast spells of levels lower then their actual caster level. But I'd say this would make for the coolest items. Ofcourse as a DM you can do whatever.
Loren Pechtel 12-23-04, 03:06 AM	If A intelegent item takes a level in fighter would it add its BAB to the wielders? Can an armor use its curent owner as a host if it fails the will save to and vie for domenance? Would a weapon be able to do the same? Can such a creation pass on its gained feats to its master/owner I don't see how they could give BAB to their wielders. They could have it themselves but unless there's something they can do with it, it doesn't make much sense. I would have no problem with an intelligent item having caster levels.
Yaeri 12-23-04, 04:08 AM	I think I'd use a sinergy bonus in such a case. If a BAB 10 fighter throws a BAB 7 rogue at an enemy and that rogue attacks the enemy it would attack with BAB 7 and not with 17. Same for the weapon. Either the wielder aims the weapon at a target or the weapon tries to hit the target with it's own BAB. However, in both cases (the absurd example with the rogue, and the actual situation with the weapon) the "weapon" would be able to slightly adjust the path it was forced into by it's wielder. (And the rogue could swing it's own weapon at the target even if the fighter missed) So I'd say something like a +1 sinergy bonus for every 5 points of BAB the weapon has. It's much harder for the weapon to hit something when it doesn't control it's own path. So therefore I think the bonus can only be partial. EDIT: almost forgotten: The idea in itself of having class levels be available for intelligent items seems cool. Even though I can't immediately picture how it would be gaining experience. (Not at all that it's impossible, I just can't picture it :D)
tarkin 12-23-04, 11:45 AM	The answer is as follows: Sort of Yes but it costs more and they do not gain XP. They have become a magical construct, so no more XP gaining. And you price it the same as any other ability you are giving the weapon wielder. effectively this means that any class levels are so expensive as to not be worth it.
Mecha Zero 12-28-04, 11:54 AM	I was thinking living Construct subtype... Synergy Bonus now thats diffrent... I like it As far as exp. I was thinking they Owner/Item would share like a Cohort. Besides the Idea of a +3 Danceing Katana thats intelegent and can cast spells of its own free will is cool. Thanks for your guys help
Seeker95 12-28-04, 01:15 PM	I like taltamir's idea, tarkin's rulings, and Yaeri's suggestion: 1. Magic casting classes only 2. Treat as construct 3. Synergy bonuses at best.
smrtgmp 12-28-04, 01:39 PM	If you want some cool alternate intelligent item rules check out Monte Cooks Complete Book of Eldritch Might. It has a system by which magical items can gain levels. Basically, the wielder transfers some of his XP to the item, and it advances in level as you do so. They can take levels in anything, but they cant use most class levels (such as fighter or rogue) unless the item is capable of self propulsion. Levels in spell casting classes are easier to work, though you still have to find a way around somatic and material components (I belive the items can take feats, such as still spell and eschew components). IMO, psion would be the best way to go with such an item, for obvious reasons.
will07 01-01-05, 12:13 AM	to any dm, just say no!!!!!!!!!!!!! :OMG! :looloo: :OMG!
Kursk 01-01-05, 01:30 PM	"Can Intelegent items have Class levels?" NO
smrtgmp 01-01-05, 05:24 PM	Wow, nice to see such openmindedness on the boards. :rolleyes: IMO an intelligent item with class levels could be the focus of a truly interesting campaign. Perhaps a sword with fighter levels could grant its wielder a higher BAB if it has him dominated. In other words, a sword with dreams of world conquest contains the soul of a 10th level fighter who died centuries ago. The long dead tyrant seeks to rebuild what he once had, and dominates the first chump who picks him up. Lets say the first such person is a 1st level commoner. The sword easily dominates the bumpkin, and takes over in a fight, giving the pair a BAB of +10. The only problem is the host body only has 4 hp, and so dies in the first fight it gets into. However, the individual who killed him takes the sword as spoils of war, and is subsequently dominated by the sword. The cycle continues until the sword finds a "worthy" wielder (i.e someone with a higher BAB than the sword). This could make for an interesting villian to stop, since it would take a while to uncover that it was really an intelligent item behind the scenes. At first it would look like random acts of violence were being commited by normally peacful folks. Eventually a pattern would emerge, at which point it would become apparent that something more sinister was afoot. By the time the PCs figure out what is actually going on, the sword would have found its way into the hands of a powerful warrior that shared the swords dreams of power and conquest. Simply saying NO and dismissing an idea without truly concidering it is never a good thing for a DM to do.
BW0222 01-01-05, 05:24 PM	IMO, an intelligent item can not gain class levels. I don't know of any class which does not require a body in order for someone to train it to do something. How do you teach a dagger to wear armour, use a sword, or handle the components or movement necessary to cast a spell? Psionics would even be a stretch. Also, I honestly can't see how it could possibly gain XP. XP is related to risk. It isn't taking any risks -- it isn't "alive" -- and it's just being carried around by someone else. Now I suppose a DM could dream up ways for an item to have once had class levels. For example, the spirit of a fallen knight inhabits his sword, or the master rogue was permanently cursed into becoming a mask, etc. However, you honestly can't give it more than mere knowledge. The ability to perform most skills, feats, spells, and class abilities requires a body.
Seeker95 01-01-05, 06:12 PM	Wow, nice to see such openmindedness on the boards. [...] Simply saying NO and dismissing an idea without truly concidering it is never a good thing for a DM to do.smrtgmp, the difference in your answer and the "just say no" answers is that you explain the exceptions to the answer. The answer is no. Unless you have a really good reason. You gave really good reasons. But think of it like this. A number of us have been DMs for many years. We have come to learn that when it comes to player requests, the answer must almost always be the one we would give to the greediest, most rules-perverse of our players. We must keep the margin of abuse as small as possible. This is best accomplished with a "no" in most cases. Giving the exception as the default answer opens the door to more exceptions than rules.
Zitchas 01-01-05, 06:15 PM	Ahhhhh, but XP also represents our learning things. Most DMs will rule that, if you are present in a battle, you gained XP from it, even if you didn't actually do any fighting. Probably nowhere near as much as the frontline fighter that killed half the enemy, but still some. Likewise, most inteligent items can observe their surroundings, and seeing as the ability to learn is usually associated with being inteligent (some inteligent items may not be able to learn, being more along the lines of extremely good programs than true inteligence), thus they should be gaining XP. Granted it should be very small. Now, in the case of creatures the item has dominated, then yes, using the items BAB instead of the commoner's make sense. It might have to take a bit of a penalty since it isn't as familiar with how a commoner's muscles work than it's own, but it should deffinitly be closer to it's own BAB than to the commoner's. When being used by creatures it hasn't dominated, then synergy works best, as has been described. Gives some advantage to having a sword with 10 lvl in fighter, but doesn't over power anything. Likewise, items with caster levels. Assuming that every spell doesn't have vocal, somatic, or component requirements, or has been memorized by said item under the effects of the silent, still, eschew materials, and possibly ignore components feats as apropriate, this results in a Item "caster" that is effectively 2-3 lvls lower than a living caster of the same level, except for spell capacity, which would be about the same. Of course, it's possible that the item has a pouch or cavity that could hold spell components and require ocasional filling by it's owner in order to cast spells... Could make for some variety in the game... *grin* Living casters are generally assumed to collect spell components as they travel and as a general thing they do when they're in civilized areas, but obviously a none-living, none-mobile item will have to have someone actively "fill it up". An intresting possibilty here is co-operative casting. If the owner is a spellcaster of the same type, he could have the item support him in his spell casting efforts, via co-operative casting. Which could make for a very popular and/or powerful item, depending on the level of the item... Hmmm... A staff of power, make it inteligent, make it a tenth level caster... Good for adding an extra bit of "spice" to the power of my spells..... *evil grin* Of course, that raises the question of costs... An inteligent item that has levels corespondingly has to have had a certain amount of XP from somewhere. Did the spellcaster sacrfice a dozen levels worth of XP over the years into it? Did someone catch the soul of a departing friend who was a wizard into it? Or was it forcibly captured from some evil mage? (Could lend a lot to the background of said item... Obviously a forcibly done item probably isn't going to want to be nearly as helpfull as the soul of a departing friend who agreed to the project.
Dunther the Great 01-01-05, 09:44 PM	After reading this post I immediantly got inspiration to make a new class specifically for intelligent magic items, as well as a couple new spells. These are my first class and spells :D, so please give any advise. Intelligent Item (the class) Sometimes the spark of intelligence comes into magical items, and on occasion an item decides to go off on adventure by itself. Hit Die: d10. Alignment: Any Class Skills The intelligent item's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate(Cha), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive(Wis). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Code: Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Mage Hand, Virtual Dexterity, Dancing 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Mage Fingers 3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Invisible Mouth 4th +3 +1 +1 +4 5th +3 +1 +1 +4 Telekinesis 1/day 6th +4 +2 +2 +5 7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Mage Arm 8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 Mage Synergy 10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Telekinesis 3/day 11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Somatic Hum 14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 Telekinesis 5/day 16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Reverse Gravity 1/day, Telekinesis 7/day Class Features All of the following are Class Features of the intelligent item class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An intelligent item is proficient with all simple weapons and itself, but not any armor, shield or weapon. Mage Hand: At will, an intelligent item can use mage hand, as the spell. It may move magical objects unlike the spell. Mage Fingers: At will, an intelligent item can use mage fingers, as the spell. It may manipulate magical objects unlike the spell. Virtual Dexterity: An intelligent item gains a dexterity score. An intelligent item uses its dexterity score for all its meele attack rolls. Dancing: An intelligent gains the dancing ability if it doesn't already have it. Invisible Mouth: The intelligent item is capable of speech if it wasn't already Telekinesis: Once a day an intelligent item can cast the telekinesis spell. At 10th level and every 5 levels thereafter, the intelligent item may use telekinesis an additional two times a day. Mage Arm: At will, an intelligent item can use mage arm, as the spell. It may move magical objects unlike the spell. Mage Synergy: An intelligent item is now capable of using the mage spells in synergy with each other allowing it to perform complexe tasks or weild weapons. Somatic Hum: An intelligent item is capable of making itself vibrate in such ways that it can perform the somatic components of spells. Reverse Gravity: An intelligent items peak ability is to be able to reverse gravity once a day as the spell. Mage Fingers Transmutation Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 5 ft Target: One nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 3 lbs. Duration: Concentration Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You can manipulate small objects at a distance such as using small tools in crafting. You cannot significantly move objects around. Mage Arm Transmutation Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./ 2 levels) Target: One nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 40 lbs. Duration: Concentration Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No As Mage Hand. And now this introduces PC swords.
smrtgmp 01-02-05, 03:04 AM	smrtgmp, the difference in your answer and the "just say no" answers is that you explain the exceptions to the answer.It would certainly be the exception. All I was trying to say is that rejecting the idea out of hand with an "of course not" isnt always the best way to go. By no means am I suggesting that every PC get a wizard ring that is unswearvingly loyal to him or her. I agree that, generally speaking, the PCs should not get their hands on items with class levels, but there are exceptions to (nearly) every rule. I guess what it boils down to is that I've never been overly fond of a straight no, as it leaves little room for imagination. A number of us have been DMs for many years. We have come to learn that when it comes to player requests, the answer must almost always be the one we would give to the greediest, most rules-perverse of our players. We must keep the margin of abuse as small as possible. This is best accomplished with a "no" in most cases.I've DM'd for most of the 18 odd years I've been playing, so I know what its like to sit behind the screen. I do things a bit differently, however. If I have a player that is interested more in the roleplaying aspect of the game (rather than pure numbers), I tend to be a bit more lenient with what I allow. Giving the exception as the default answer opens the door to more exceptions than rules.The above scenario was not intended to be a default situation, I was merely providing an example in which the answer could be yes. You gave really good reasons.Thanks. :)
MaverickWolf 03-30-05, 10:59 PM	I was thinking living Construct subtype... Synergy Bonus now thats diffrent... I like it As far as exp. I was thinking they Owner/Item would share like a Cohort. Besides the Idea of a +3 Danceing Katana thats intelegent and can cast spells of its own free will is cool. Thanks for your guys helpWell, this is kind of resurrecting the dead, but...Give that thing Natural Spell, and your katana just got even more dangerous....
Thyme71 03-30-05, 11:07 PM	I'd say yes... It's an idea I've been toying with. One of the ideas I've tossed around is to have a standard golem that is crafted to obey the will of the intelligent item (course, could just make the golem intelligent, but this idea is part of a storyline). Figuring out the specifics though really has to be dealt with on a case by case basis. Definitly an area for DM freedom here though, and some interesting concepts can arise. Thyme
Ryll 03-31-05, 01:09 AM	If I were an intelligent sword with class levels... I would also want the dancing ability... maybe that is just me though :)