can Mass Spell Resistance be Persisted using Divine Metamagic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

can Mass Spell Resistance be Persisted using Divine Metamagic? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
superkurt13
09-01-07, 09:02 PM If a cleric has the ability to cast Mass Spell Resistance on his party would he also be able to make it Persistent by using the Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) feat and giving up 7 turn attempts?

If so, how long would it last? Since the normal spell lasts (cleric level) rounds split between your party, how would Persistent work? Would it be 24 hours split between all of the party or just a flat 24 hours?
runestar
09-01-07, 10:29 PM Is the spell a valid target to be modified by persistent spell? :confused:
BrutishCelt
09-02-07, 04:11 AM Well, the feat says that it works on spells with a "fixed or personal range." I'm not sure what they mean by "fixed" [perhaps spells that don't increase in range with caster level, such as "touch"].

The biggest problem, though is that Persistent Mass Spell Resistance burns 6 turn attempts with Divine Metamagic. That's a lotta turn attempts, but if you're not concerned about undead, then no worries.
Merestil Haye
09-02-07, 07:35 AM Well, the feat says that it works on spells with a "fixed or personal range." I'm not sure what they mean by "fixed" [perhaps spells that don't increase in range with caster level, such as "touch"]."Touch" is not fixed range. Spells with a range of Touch may not be persisted.

"Fixed range" in this context means that the spell affects an area centred on the caster that does not change with level. For an example, see Antimagic Field.

The biggest problem, though is that Persistent Mass Spell Resistance burns 6 turn attempts with Divine Metamagic. That's a lotta turn attempts, but if you're not concerned about undead, then no worries.Seven. And frankly, it's often a very good deal.

Remember, Turn Undead works off your Cleric class level. If you're a 20th level character with (say) three levels of Cleric before prestige classing, your Turn attempts lose their effectiveness very quickly as you'd only be able to affect Undead with up to 7HD or so. How many CR 18-25 opponents are Undead with 7HD?

ETA : Mass Spell Resistance is Close range, thus not eligible for Persistence anyway.
risner
09-03-07, 06:54 PM Well, the feat says that it works on spells with a "fixed or personal range." I'm not sure what they mean by "fixed" [perhaps spells that don't increase in range with caster level, such as "touch"].

Yes and no.

Yes to spells that ranges listed in fixed amounts:
30 ft
10 ft
100 ft
etc

Touch spells are not fixed range spells, they are touch spells.
Witch
09-03-07, 06:59 PM May I inquire as to where the belief that "Touch" is not a fixed range comes from? It seems pretty fixed to me: "0ft. between your hand and the target"
Merestil Haye
09-04-07, 01:12 AM May I inquire as to where the belief that "Touch" is not a fixed range comes from? It seems pretty fixed to me: "0ft. between your hand and the target"The 3.0 FAQ. It is fairly explicit.Would spells that have touch range, such as spell resistance, be considered to have a fixed range, and therefore be usable with the Persistent Spell feat?

No. Range touch is not “fixed” for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat. The spell must affect the caster’s person (personal range) or have some effect that radiates from the caster’s person (a fixed range, expressed in feet).(Emphasis mine).

The best way to interpret the feat is that if you do not know exactly what will be affected by the spell when you start casting it it is not eligible for Persistent Spell. If it requires that you touch the affected creature you cannot be certain - the creature might not want to be affected by the spell.

And the restricted set of spells that Persistent Spell can be applied to is a limitation on the power of the feat.
ArcTan
09-04-07, 01:24 AM May I inquire as to where the belief that "Touch" is not a fixed range comes from? It seems pretty fixed to me: "0ft. between your hand and the target"

Because that's not what "touch" means. Touch means I touch it, and then he can go away -- thousands of miles away or to another plane -- and he still has the spell on him.

Fixed-range spells are spells that go to a certain distance away from me and *stay* there. In other words, they're Personal spells in essence, but they count as having a "range" because the actual effect of the spell is some kind of emanation that ranges away from me (i.e. AMF, antilife shell, etc.) The idea was that it'd be broken for Persistent Spell to affect any spell that isn't permanently affixed to the caster in some way.
Witch
09-04-07, 03:49 AM Thank you both.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
superkurt13 09-01-07, 09:02 PM	If a cleric has the ability to cast Mass Spell Resistance on his party would he also be able to make it Persistent by using the Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) feat and giving up 7 turn attempts? If so, how long would it last? Since the normal spell lasts (cleric level) rounds split between your party, how would Persistent work? Would it be 24 hours split between all of the party or just a flat 24 hours?
runestar 09-01-07, 10:29 PM	Is the spell a valid target to be modified by persistent spell? :confused:
BrutishCelt 09-02-07, 04:11 AM	Well, the feat says that it works on spells with a "fixed or personal range." I'm not sure what they mean by "fixed" [perhaps spells that don't increase in range with caster level, such as "touch"]. The biggest problem, though is that Persistent Mass Spell Resistance burns 6 turn attempts with Divine Metamagic. That's a lotta turn attempts, but if you're not concerned about undead, then no worries.
Merestil Haye 09-02-07, 07:35 AM	Well, the feat says that it works on spells with a "fixed or personal range." I'm not sure what they mean by "fixed" [perhaps spells that don't increase in range with caster level, such as "touch"]."Touch" is not fixed range. Spells with a range of Touch may not be persisted. "Fixed range" in this context means that the spell affects an area centred on the caster that does not change with level. For an example, see Antimagic Field. The biggest problem, though is that Persistent Mass Spell Resistance burns 6 turn attempts with Divine Metamagic. That's a lotta turn attempts, but if you're not concerned about undead, then no worries.Seven. And frankly, it's often a very good deal. Remember, Turn Undead works off your Cleric class level. If you're a 20th level character with (say) three levels of Cleric before prestige classing, your Turn attempts lose their effectiveness very quickly as you'd only be able to affect Undead with up to 7HD or so. How many CR 18-25 opponents are Undead with 7HD? ETA : Mass Spell Resistance is Close range, thus not eligible for Persistence anyway.
risner 09-03-07, 06:54 PM	Well, the feat says that it works on spells with a "fixed or personal range." I'm not sure what they mean by "fixed" [perhaps spells that don't increase in range with caster level, such as "touch"]. Yes and no. Yes to spells that ranges listed in fixed amounts: 30 ft 10 ft 100 ft etc Touch spells are not fixed range spells, they are touch spells.
Witch 09-03-07, 06:59 PM	May I inquire as to where the belief that "Touch" is not a fixed range comes from? It seems pretty fixed to me: "0ft. between your hand and the target"
Merestil Haye 09-04-07, 01:12 AM	May I inquire as to where the belief that "Touch" is not a fixed range comes from? It seems pretty fixed to me: "0ft. between your hand and the target"The 3.0 FAQ. It is fairly explicit.Would spells that have touch range, such as spell resistance, be considered to have a fixed range, and therefore be usable with the Persistent Spell feat? No. Range touch is not “fixed” for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat. The spell must affect the caster’s person (personal range) or have some effect that radiates from the caster’s person (a fixed range, expressed in feet).(Emphasis mine). The best way to interpret the feat is that if you do not know exactly what will be affected by the spell when you start casting it it is not eligible for Persistent Spell. If it requires that you touch the affected creature you cannot be certain - the creature might not want to be affected by the spell. And the restricted set of spells that Persistent Spell can be applied to is a limitation on the power of the feat.
ArcTan 09-04-07, 01:24 AM	May I inquire as to where the belief that "Touch" is not a fixed range comes from? It seems pretty fixed to me: "0ft. between your hand and the target" Because that's not what "touch" means. Touch means I touch it, and then he can go away -- thousands of miles away or to another plane -- and he still has the spell on him. Fixed-range spells are spells that go to a certain distance away from me and stay there. In other words, they're Personal spells in essence, but they count as having a "range" because the actual effect of the spell is some kind of emanation that ranges away from me (i.e. AMF, antilife shell, etc.) The idea was that it'd be broken for Persistent Spell to affect any spell that isn't permanently affixed to the caster in some way.
Witch 09-04-07, 03:49 AM	Thank you both.