Can Miasma spell kill the Trassque? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Miasma spell kill the Trassque? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mango_stuff
06-12-04, 01:38 AM Can a 20th lvl character with the miasma spell (a spell from the Complete Divine) kill a trassque?

I don't think so cause spells cast on him are simply negated, if that is right, can miasma even affect big T? Also, does he have to make a con check or a fort save?
Edward
06-12-04, 02:07 AM I have herd descriptions of the spell but not the proper one.

I think miasma would be able to bring the trassque down but as nothing can kill it, it will just wait until the spell expires and then get up again.

But if it will bring it down you can then start having the tanks power attack kup de grace it repeatedly with picks (*4 crit) and you can keep it down until you think of something better.

Edward
Raven113
06-12-04, 03:52 AM I may be wrong, but I believe you have to wish it dead once it's a -10 HP. I think the previous poster has detailed an effective way to get it there though.
Eldren
06-12-04, 06:19 AM The tarrasque still needs to breathe, but with its Constitution score, you're going to have to deal with the thing for 17 rounds (35 normally, but since it's likely doing more than just moving or taking free actions, its amount of time for holding its breath is cut in half, as per the Swim skill description in the 3.5 Player's Handbook).

The best you're going to get, however, is knocking it unconscious, since the steps required to actually kill the thing are rather involved and potentially expensive (in both material components and experience points). The best Miasma can manage to do is knock the thing out, although it can conceivably do it in a minimum of 17 rounds (the tarrasque is likely intelligent enough to hold its breath, and if it's fighting, then it isn't going to do that for 35 rounds) rather than the number of rounds it might take the party to actually get the tarrasque's nonlethal damage total up to 858 (which, even with x4 criticals, is likely to take some time).
Derren S.
06-12-04, 06:27 AM Actually killing the Tarrasque with Miasma is rather easy.

An extended Miasma casted at caster level 16 has a long enough duration (96 rounds) so that the Tarrasques can't hold its breath long enough (70 rounds) and make the Con checks succesfully (22 rounds at maximum).

The Wish is only needed to nullfy the regeneration of the Tarrasque, but regeneration doesn't help when you suffocate, so when the Tarrasque dies because of Miasma it dies for real because its real HP go to -10. It doesn't get nonlethal damage like when hit by instant death spells or normal attacks and the Tarrasque has no special ability which keeps it allive when its HP get to -10.

And yes, the Tarrasque has to make Con checks, using only its Con modifier, not Fort Saves.
A lvl 13 druid witha Bead of Karms and natural spell can kill the Tarrasque, with biggest problem for him is to breach the SR.
Edymnion
06-12-04, 01:14 PM You have to use a Wish to keep the Tarasque permanently dead, period. It doesn't matter HOW you get him down to -10, if you don't use Wish, he will get up again. You can grind the big guy into Tarrasque smoothies and pass them out to the villiagers for a frosty treat, and he will STILL pull himself back together if given enough time.

You MUST Wish the Tarrasque to stay dead, and there is no way around this.
Derren S.
06-12-04, 02:04 PM Says who?

Please show me the rule or ability that allows the Tarrasque to live when its HP reach -10.

Read again, you don't cast wish when the Tarrasques HP are -10, you cast it when the nonlethal damage excess its HP by 10. If the HP go down to -10 the Tarrasque is dead. The problem is that the Tarrasque is nearly unkillable because no form of attack deal lethal damage to it. Its regeneration converts all damage and even death spells into nonlethal damage which doesn't result in death and can be regenerated.

Suffocation on the other hand deals lethal damage and regeneration doesn't convert it into nonlethal damage (see DMG). So when the Tarrasque suffocates, its real HP go down to -10. Wish is only needed when the nonlethal damage excess the HP by 10.
Edymnion
06-12-04, 02:43 PM Originally posted by Derren S.
Says who?

Please show me the rule or ability that allows the Tarrasque to live when its HP reach -10. Says the Monster Manual.

From the SRD:
The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.Note that it does not say that you only need Wish or Miracle to keep it dead if you can get it's subdual damage up there. It specifically says the ONLY way to kill it is to raise its nonlethal damage to its full normal hitpoints +10.

Specifically says that is the ONLY way to kill it. That supercedes the normal "-10 and you're dead" rule. So if you drown it, you still have not raised it's nonlethal damage high enough, and you did not cast Wish/Miracle, so it does not die.

Although, personally, I use the 3.0 Tarrasque where you had to get him down to -30, and throw in the 3.5 immunities to con drain and wounding effects.
Derren S.
06-12-04, 03:25 PM There is no rule which supports this flavor text. Its like the entry which says that those Hectothings from DDG can kill gods, but are actually much to weak to do so.
Edymnion
06-12-04, 03:42 PM Originally posted by Derren S.
There is no rule which supports this flavor text. Its like the entry which says that those Hectothings from DDG can kill gods, but are actually much to weak to do so. Okay, so that means you want to take away the Wish/Miracle casting completely, eh? You know, since that was only mentioned in the flavor text, and there are no rules anywhere else to support it...
Mango_stuff
06-12-04, 04:21 PM What about the Carprace special ability? Doesn't it say that If you cast spells on BigT, then they have a 30% chance of casting back at you, and if it doesn't cast back, It is simply negated.
Derren S.
06-12-04, 04:21 PM That a wish has to be used is a rule, but not that that is the only way to kill it.

The, no other way to kill is still in the regeneration entry, so there may be no other way to kill it when it regenerates the damage, but Miasma bypasses the regeneration completly.

So you can't starve the Tarrasque? Why does it hunt then? Or what about drowning? Can it now walk on the bottom of the ocean?
exploding_brain
06-12-04, 05:07 PM Not that easy any more.

First, the Miasma spell has been changed in Complete Divine. It's now a 6th level Druid spell. The duation has been reduce to 3 rounds per caster level. Most importantly, they released errata on the Miasma spell here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=254154), that adds a Fort: negates save to the Miasma spell. Good luck beating big T's +38 fort save.

Assuming the Big T rolls a 1 on his fort save, and you manage to beat his spell resistance, Big T can hold his breath for 70 rounds. An extended Miasma will be required. With a +12 Con bonus, he has a better than 50% chance of failing a con check by round 79, and beginning to suffocate.
Derren S.
06-12-04, 05:09 PM As long as it is not in the FAQ/Errata, its not offical. For the rest, see my calculation.
[GSV] Kirstar
06-12-04, 05:15 PM what effect is miasma?

why not make tarrasque hame the same breath holding as a whale. make it so he can hold his breath for 1 minute per con point.

if miasma was a core spell i bet they would have given him an immunity to it.

big T. is the one monster you need to hack up and not magic to death, except for the properly worded wish.

for example if you had a monster that was immune to all listed save or die type spells, petrification, death, disintergration etc and then you made a spell with the same level / damage etc as finger of death but that exploded the heart would you allow it to effect you monster ? I know i wouldnt.
bitnine
06-12-04, 07:40 PM That 'wish to stay dead' section of text is part of the regeneration special ability block, which suffocation specifically circumvents.
Archtyrant Terevoth
06-12-04, 09:03 PM The Tarrasque regenerates past save or die spells, and that has nothing to do with regeneration, but it's specifically mentioned there in the regeneration block. The Tarrasque can only be killed by doing the right amount of nonlethal damage and then using a wish/miracle spell to keep it down. That's it. It can only be killed that way, meaning, yes... that's the only way.

That is the only way to kill it, that's actually the letter of the law and the spirit of the law in this case, and still people are arguing about it. It specifically says it's the only way to kill it.

Here's the simple quiz...

1) Did you inflict it's max hit points +10 in subdual damage?
2) Did you use a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead afterwards?

If the answers to those two questions are not yes, then it's not dead.

Basic english language here people. It's dead only if you do those two things. It specifically says that. That ain't flavor text, that's what the rules block says.
bitnine
06-12-04, 09:57 PM Originally posted by Archtyrant Terevoth
The Tarrasque regenerates past save or die spells, and that has nothing to do with regeneration, but it's specifically mentioned there in the regeneration block.I'm not sure I follow. The Terrasque's ability to regenerate from save or die spells, noted in its regeneration block as follows:Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect.Has nothing to do with regeneration?
Mango_stuff
06-12-04, 10:32 PM Can the miasma spell even affect the trassque? It has the CARAPRACE ability... Which basicaly says any spell that doesn't have an area effect has to make above a 30% roll, or it is reflected back at the caster, if it isn't reflected back... thats above 30%... the spell simply negates... or did I read the text wrong, I don't know, someone help me out here.;)
Servant
06-12-04, 10:58 PM Carapace (Ex): The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.

Miasma isn't a ray, line, cone, or magic missile spell, so the tarrasque's carapace doesn't help.

The regeneration block does seem pretty clear about the tarrasque not dying, although suffocation still ought to knock it out, I think.
Archtyrant Terevoth
06-13-04, 01:08 AM A death effect instantly kills something. But you still can't kill it with a death effect or 3.0 disintegrate.

It says explicitly that only nonlethal damage + a wish/miracle can kill it. And it says those conditions and only those conditions can beat it. I don't see how there can be any question whatsoever about whether suffocation can kill it. Most likely suffocation just causes it to get knocked out, and then when it can breathe again it wakes up. Either that or it's completely immune to suffocation.

If you expect it to be super significant that it was placed under regeneration and not it's own separate catagory like "Tarrasque Rebirth", then you're expecting too much out of a rules set.
Derren S.
06-13-04, 03:02 AM Miasma doesn't kill instantly, so it itsn't blocked by regeneration. Also it is no death effect, desintegration effect. No part of the special regeneration entry applies to Miasma.
Failut
06-13-04, 03:58 AM I view it as falling under the "no form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque." Which I view as all successfull attacks deal subdual damage only.

Remember that the errata rule of Primary sources states that "The Monster Manual is the primary source for monser descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. "

and the Tarrasque's Regen is listed as a extraordinary ability. Thus when it states in there, "The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead." That is exactly what it says.

You might be able to reduce it to being unconcious. But that is as far as you can go with the spell Miasma, but kudo's on finding a way to knock the tarrasque unconcious quicker, as long as you can get that save DC up to about 49 so that you have at lease a 50% chance of the spell sticking.
Archtyrant Terevoth
06-13-04, 02:28 PM Originally posted by Derren S.
Miasma doesn't kill instantly, so it itsn't blocked by regeneration.

Huh? I fail to see how this has anything to do with it. Melf's acid arrow doesn't kill you instantly either.
Derren S.
06-13-04, 02:31 PM The Tarrasque regeneration entry states that whenever a spell would instantly slay it, it only recives nonlethal damage. I wanted to point out that Miasma doesn't fall into this category.
[GSV] Kirstar
06-13-04, 05:27 PM personally i will err to the side of big t.

hes not meant to be killed in such a way.
Edymnion
06-13-04, 08:19 PM Originally posted by [GSV] Kirstar
personally i will err to the side of big t.

hes not meant to be killed in such a way. Yes. Even if you can find a rules-lawyer loophole, which I don't think we have here, any intelligent DM is going to go with the spirit of the rules above the letter of the rules.

Big T is supposed to be a nearly unstoppable monster.
Letting him die from something as stupid as choking to death is not in the spirit of the rules. As far as I'm concerned, its not in the letter of the rules either.

So no, the Tarrasque could not drown. It cannot suffocate. It will go unconcious should either of those two happen, and it will stay unconcious until it gets access to air, but it will not die.
Eldren
06-13-04, 10:02 PM I think some people are getting too caught up in the standard rules, and they're recognizing that the tarrasque doesn't follow some of these rules, and it doesn't compute.

The tarrasque is an exception to the normal rules regarding death, whether by going to -10 hit points, or by drowning/suffocating, or what-have-you. It is a unique creature (at least to any given campaign world; the presumption is that there's one on every world, unless a Dungeon Master has just decided that the tarrasque doesn't exist on their world; I'm sure plenty of those types are around; players just get too swaggery when they can start bragging, "We killed the tarrasque!", and some DMs just don't want to deal with the headaches), and in being unique, it has a little more ground to stand on, mechanically, when it violates the normal rules for death in the Dungeons & Dragons game.

The text for the creature description in the Monster Manual is plainly stated, and leaves little room for interpretation. It says the only way you can kill the tarrasque is to raise its nonlethal damage total to its normal hit points +10 (since nonlethal damage is added together to equal a creature's current hit points, and not subtracted from their existing hit point total; since the tarrasque has regeneration, that means all damage dealt to it is nonlethal in nature), and then use either Wish or Miracle to keep it dead. If you do one but not the other (deal enough nonlethal damage, but don't use the magic, or use the magic, but not the nonlethal damage), you aren't going to permanently kill it. You may perhaps knock it out, but with its regeneration, it's going to get up two rounds later, when its nonlethal damage total drops below its maximum hit points. Then it's going to be really ticked off, and you're probably still pretty wasted from the fight, so your best bet is to take to the sky and hope its attacks of opportunity don't lay waste to you before you can get out of its swiping range.

And yes, this means that if you can somehow reduce it to itty-bitty pieces, and scatter them across the planes, the creature will still reform itself, although this might take some time. The game doesn't indicate how this happens, and probably doesn't need to. It's enough to know that if you don't go through the specific steps mentioned in the Monster Manual to keep the thing permanently dead, it's going to come back. Your saving grace there is that it's essentially of animal level intelligence, which means it'll have probably forgotten entirely about you and your party in favor of laying waste to whatever happens to be in front of it at the time of its reintegration.

It's the ultimate melee machine in Core Rules D&D. It's the pinnacle of combative prowess to say you killed the thing. It's more threatening than a singular pit fiend or balor could ever be, because it isn't going to think through things, it's just going to rip and tear until either it or you is dead, or until something more interesting can take its attention away from you. In such a case, you might consider casting Gate to summon a pit fiend or balor, and sic the tarrasque on them, and get the hell out of Dodge.

Pretty simple. Hitpoints plus 10 of nonlethal damage, then Miracle or Wish to keep it dead. Anything less simply won't work.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mango_stuff 06-12-04, 01:38 AM	Can a 20th lvl character with the miasma spell (a spell from the Complete Divine) kill a trassque? I don't think so cause spells cast on him are simply negated, if that is right, can miasma even affect big T? Also, does he have to make a con check or a fort save?
Edward 06-12-04, 02:07 AM	I have herd descriptions of the spell but not the proper one. I think miasma would be able to bring the trassque down but as nothing can kill it, it will just wait until the spell expires and then get up again. But if it will bring it down you can then start having the tanks power attack kup de grace it repeatedly with picks (*4 crit) and you can keep it down until you think of something better. Edward
Raven113 06-12-04, 03:52 AM	I may be wrong, but I believe you have to wish it dead once it's a -10 HP. I think the previous poster has detailed an effective way to get it there though.
Eldren 06-12-04, 06:19 AM	The tarrasque still needs to breathe, but with its Constitution score, you're going to have to deal with the thing for 17 rounds (35 normally, but since it's likely doing more than just moving or taking free actions, its amount of time for holding its breath is cut in half, as per the Swim skill description in the 3.5 Player's Handbook). The best you're going to get, however, is knocking it unconscious, since the steps required to actually kill the thing are rather involved and potentially expensive (in both material components and experience points). The best Miasma can manage to do is knock the thing out, although it can conceivably do it in a minimum of 17 rounds (the tarrasque is likely intelligent enough to hold its breath, and if it's fighting, then it isn't going to do that for 35 rounds) rather than the number of rounds it might take the party to actually get the tarrasque's nonlethal damage total up to 858 (which, even with x4 criticals, is likely to take some time).
Derren S. 06-12-04, 06:27 AM	Actually killing the Tarrasque with Miasma is rather easy. An extended Miasma casted at caster level 16 has a long enough duration (96 rounds) so that the Tarrasques can't hold its breath long enough (70 rounds) and make the Con checks succesfully (22 rounds at maximum). The Wish is only needed to nullfy the regeneration of the Tarrasque, but regeneration doesn't help when you suffocate, so when the Tarrasque dies because of Miasma it dies for real because its real HP go to -10. It doesn't get nonlethal damage like when hit by instant death spells or normal attacks and the Tarrasque has no special ability which keeps it allive when its HP get to -10. And yes, the Tarrasque has to make Con checks, using only its Con modifier, not Fort Saves. A lvl 13 druid witha Bead of Karms and natural spell can kill the Tarrasque, with biggest problem for him is to breach the SR.
Edymnion 06-12-04, 01:14 PM	You have to use a Wish to keep the Tarasque permanently dead, period. It doesn't matter HOW you get him down to -10, if you don't use Wish, he will get up again. You can grind the big guy into Tarrasque smoothies and pass them out to the villiagers for a frosty treat, and he will STILL pull himself back together if given enough time. You MUST Wish the Tarrasque to stay dead, and there is no way around this.
Derren S. 06-12-04, 02:04 PM	Says who? Please show me the rule or ability that allows the Tarrasque to live when its HP reach -10. Read again, you don't cast wish when the Tarrasques HP are -10, you cast it when the nonlethal damage excess its HP by 10. If the HP go down to -10 the Tarrasque is dead. The problem is that the Tarrasque is nearly unkillable because no form of attack deal lethal damage to it. Its regeneration converts all damage and even death spells into nonlethal damage which doesn't result in death and can be regenerated. Suffocation on the other hand deals lethal damage and regeneration doesn't convert it into nonlethal damage (see DMG). So when the Tarrasque suffocates, its real HP go down to -10. Wish is only needed when the nonlethal damage excess the HP by 10.
Edymnion 06-12-04, 02:43 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Says who? Please show me the rule or ability that allows the Tarrasque to live when its HP reach -10. Says the Monster Manual. From the SRD: The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.Note that it does not say that you only need Wish or Miracle to keep it dead if you can get it's subdual damage up there. It specifically says the ONLY way to kill it is to raise its nonlethal damage to its full normal hitpoints +10. Specifically says that is the ONLY way to kill it. That supercedes the normal "-10 and you're dead" rule. So if you drown it, you still have not raised it's nonlethal damage high enough, and you did not cast Wish/Miracle, so it does not die. Although, personally, I use the 3.0 Tarrasque where you had to get him down to -30, and throw in the 3.5 immunities to con drain and wounding effects.
Derren S. 06-12-04, 03:25 PM	There is no rule which supports this flavor text. Its like the entry which says that those Hectothings from DDG can kill gods, but are actually much to weak to do so.
Edymnion 06-12-04, 03:42 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. There is no rule which supports this flavor text. Its like the entry which says that those Hectothings from DDG can kill gods, but are actually much to weak to do so. Okay, so that means you want to take away the Wish/Miracle casting completely, eh? You know, since that was only mentioned in the flavor text, and there are no rules anywhere else to support it...
Mango_stuff 06-12-04, 04:21 PM	What about the Carprace special ability? Doesn't it say that If you cast spells on BigT, then they have a 30% chance of casting back at you, and if it doesn't cast back, It is simply negated.
Derren S. 06-12-04, 04:21 PM	That a wish has to be used is a rule, but not that that is the only way to kill it. The, no other way to kill is still in the regeneration entry, so there may be no other way to kill it when it regenerates the damage, but Miasma bypasses the regeneration completly. So you can't starve the Tarrasque? Why does it hunt then? Or what about drowning? Can it now walk on the bottom of the ocean?
exploding_brain 06-12-04, 05:07 PM	Not that easy any more. First, the Miasma spell has been changed in Complete Divine. It's now a 6th level Druid spell. The duation has been reduce to 3 rounds per caster level. Most importantly, they released errata on the Miasma spell here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=254154), that adds a Fort: negates save to the Miasma spell. Good luck beating big T's +38 fort save. Assuming the Big T rolls a 1 on his fort save, and you manage to beat his spell resistance, Big T can hold his breath for 70 rounds. An extended Miasma will be required. With a +12 Con bonus, he has a better than 50% chance of failing a con check by round 79, and beginning to suffocate.
Derren S. 06-12-04, 05:09 PM	As long as it is not in the FAQ/Errata, its not offical. For the rest, see my calculation.
[GSV] Kirstar 06-12-04, 05:15 PM	what effect is miasma? why not make tarrasque hame the same breath holding as a whale. make it so he can hold his breath for 1 minute per con point. if miasma was a core spell i bet they would have given him an immunity to it. big T. is the one monster you need to hack up and not magic to death, except for the properly worded wish. for example if you had a monster that was immune to all listed save or die type spells, petrification, death, disintergration etc and then you made a spell with the same level / damage etc as finger of death but that exploded the heart would you allow it to effect you monster ? I know i wouldnt.
bitnine 06-12-04, 07:40 PM	That 'wish to stay dead' section of text is part of the regeneration special ability block, which suffocation specifically circumvents.
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-12-04, 09:03 PM	The Tarrasque regenerates past save or die spells, and that has nothing to do with regeneration, but it's specifically mentioned there in the regeneration block. The Tarrasque can only be killed by doing the right amount of nonlethal damage and then using a wish/miracle spell to keep it down. That's it. It can only be killed that way, meaning, yes... that's the only way. That is the only way to kill it, that's actually the letter of the law and the spirit of the law in this case, and still people are arguing about it. It specifically says it's the only way to kill it. Here's the simple quiz... 1) Did you inflict it's max hit points +10 in subdual damage? 2) Did you use a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead afterwards? If the answers to those two questions are not yes, then it's not dead. Basic english language here people. It's dead only if you do those two things. It specifically says that. That ain't flavor text, that's what the rules block says.
bitnine 06-12-04, 09:57 PM	Originally posted by Archtyrant Terevoth The Tarrasque regenerates past save or die spells, and that has nothing to do with regeneration, but it's specifically mentioned there in the regeneration block.I'm not sure I follow. The Terrasque's ability to regenerate from save or die spells, noted in its regeneration block as follows:Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect.Has nothing to do with regeneration?
Mango_stuff 06-12-04, 10:32 PM	Can the miasma spell even affect the trassque? It has the CARAPRACE ability... Which basicaly says any spell that doesn't have an area effect has to make above a 30% roll, or it is reflected back at the caster, if it isn't reflected back... thats above 30%... the spell simply negates... or did I read the text wrong, I don't know, someone help me out here.;)
Servant 06-12-04, 10:58 PM	Carapace (Ex): The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. There is a 30% chance of reflecting any such effect back at the caster; otherwise, it is merely negated. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance. Miasma isn't a ray, line, cone, or magic missile spell, so the tarrasque's carapace doesn't help. The regeneration block does seem pretty clear about the tarrasque not dying, although suffocation still ought to knock it out, I think.
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-13-04, 01:08 AM	A death effect instantly kills something. But you still can't kill it with a death effect or 3.0 disintegrate. It says explicitly that only nonlethal damage + a wish/miracle can kill it. And it says those conditions and only those conditions can beat it. I don't see how there can be any question whatsoever about whether suffocation can kill it. Most likely suffocation just causes it to get knocked out, and then when it can breathe again it wakes up. Either that or it's completely immune to suffocation. If you expect it to be super significant that it was placed under regeneration and not it's own separate catagory like "Tarrasque Rebirth", then you're expecting too much out of a rules set.
Derren S. 06-13-04, 03:02 AM	Miasma doesn't kill instantly, so it itsn't blocked by regeneration. Also it is no death effect, desintegration effect. No part of the special regeneration entry applies to Miasma.
Failut 06-13-04, 03:58 AM	I view it as falling under the "no form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque." Which I view as all successfull attacks deal subdual damage only. Remember that the errata rule of Primary sources states that "The Monster Manual is the primary source for monser descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. " and the Tarrasque's Regen is listed as a extraordinary ability. Thus when it states in there, "The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead." That is exactly what it says. You might be able to reduce it to being unconcious. But that is as far as you can go with the spell Miasma, but kudo's on finding a way to knock the tarrasque unconcious quicker, as long as you can get that save DC up to about 49 so that you have at lease a 50% chance of the spell sticking.
Archtyrant Terevoth 06-13-04, 02:28 PM	Originally posted by Derren S. Miasma doesn't kill instantly, so it itsn't blocked by regeneration. Huh? I fail to see how this has anything to do with it. Melf's acid arrow doesn't kill you instantly either.
Derren S. 06-13-04, 02:31 PM	The Tarrasque regeneration entry states that whenever a spell would instantly slay it, it only recives nonlethal damage. I wanted to point out that Miasma doesn't fall into this category.
[GSV] Kirstar 06-13-04, 05:27 PM	personally i will err to the side of big t. hes not meant to be killed in such a way.
Edymnion 06-13-04, 08:19 PM	Originally posted by [GSV] Kirstar personally i will err to the side of big t. hes not meant to be killed in such a way. Yes. Even if you can find a rules-lawyer loophole, which I don't think we have here, any intelligent DM is going to go with the spirit of the rules above the letter of the rules. Big T is supposed to be a nearly unstoppable monster. Letting him die from something as stupid as choking to death is not in the spirit of the rules. As far as I'm concerned, its not in the letter of the rules either. So no, the Tarrasque could not drown. It cannot suffocate. It will go unconcious should either of those two happen, and it will stay unconcious until it gets access to air, but it will not die.
Eldren 06-13-04, 10:02 PM	I think some people are getting too caught up in the standard rules, and they're recognizing that the tarrasque doesn't follow some of these rules, and it doesn't compute. The tarrasque is an exception to the normal rules regarding death, whether by going to -10 hit points, or by drowning/suffocating, or what-have-you. It is a unique creature (at least to any given campaign world; the presumption is that there's one on every world, unless a Dungeon Master has just decided that the tarrasque doesn't exist on their world; I'm sure plenty of those types are around; players just get too swaggery when they can start bragging, "We killed the tarrasque!", and some DMs just don't want to deal with the headaches), and in being unique, it has a little more ground to stand on, mechanically, when it violates the normal rules for death in the Dungeons & Dragons game. The text for the creature description in the Monster Manual is plainly stated, and leaves little room for interpretation. It says the only way you can kill the tarrasque is to raise its nonlethal damage total to its normal hit points +10 (since nonlethal damage is added together to equal a creature's current hit points, and not subtracted from their existing hit point total; since the tarrasque has regeneration, that means all damage dealt to it is nonlethal in nature), and then use either Wish or Miracle to keep it dead. If you do one but not the other (deal enough nonlethal damage, but don't use the magic, or use the magic, but not the nonlethal damage), you aren't going to permanently kill it. You may perhaps knock it out, but with its regeneration, it's going to get up two rounds later, when its nonlethal damage total drops below its maximum hit points. Then it's going to be really ticked off, and you're probably still pretty wasted from the fight, so your best bet is to take to the sky and hope its attacks of opportunity don't lay waste to you before you can get out of its swiping range. And yes, this means that if you can somehow reduce it to itty-bitty pieces, and scatter them across the planes, the creature will still reform itself, although this might take some time. The game doesn't indicate how this happens, and probably doesn't need to. It's enough to know that if you don't go through the specific steps mentioned in the Monster Manual to keep the thing permanently dead, it's going to come back. Your saving grace there is that it's essentially of animal level intelligence, which means it'll have probably forgotten entirely about you and your party in favor of laying waste to whatever happens to be in front of it at the time of its reintegration. It's the ultimate melee machine in Core Rules D&D. It's the pinnacle of combative prowess to say you killed the thing. It's more threatening than a singular pit fiend or balor could ever be, because it isn't going to think through things, it's just going to rip and tear until either it or you is dead, or until something more interesting can take its attention away from you. In such a case, you might consider casting Gate to summon a pit fiend or balor, and sic the tarrasque on them, and get the hell out of Dodge. Pretty simple. Hitpoints plus 10 of nonlethal damage, then Miracle or Wish to keep it dead. Anything less simply won't work.