Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SamiPeikko 05-02-05, 07:22 AM	As I am playing cleric in two campaigns, one 3ed and the other 3.5, I'd like to know beforehand if there is any ruling about this. Also if people have made house rules about this, knowledge about their success or failure would provide valuable insight. One spesific example: in Faerun there is 7th lvl cleric spell "Holy star", limited to initiates of mystra in 3.5. Can the cleric cast a miracle to get extended version of this spell, even if he is not initiate of Mystra, and does not have Extend Spell meatmagic feat?
djinni 05-02-05, 07:30 AM	as long as the modified spell level is not higher than the listed spell level it can duplicate.
stamhaven 05-02-05, 07:50 AM	In your specific case I'd say no to the extended version but yes to the regular. Holy Star isn't on the general cleric list or your domain lists so it falls in the 7th level spell cap for non-cleric and non-known domain spells. Also asking your god to mimic mystra's schtick may get ignored depending on how your DM RP's the god's whim. Balance wise that spell doesn't seem out of hand though, technically I'd say it's not allowed (unless you are a cleric of mystra).
runestar 05-02-05, 08:44 AM	Mechanically, I would not allow this. Consider this situation. You can use shadow evocation at lv11 to emulate a cone of cold, dealing 11d6 damage. Or you can emulate an empowered fireball, deaking 1.5(11d6), and both have the same base dc of 16+int mod. Likewise, a wish mimicking a spell would have base dc of 19+int mod, but with the benefits of metamagic feats. As a ad-hoc rule, I would have the dc of the spell be reduced by the lv adjustment of the metamagic feat emulated. Does this sound fair or overly paranoid?
djinni 05-02-05, 08:53 AM	Does this sound fair or overly paranoid? depends on your group, with my group the fighter has no hope of making a 17th level wizards 3rd level spell reflex save, so a 9th level spell makes no difference, and 10D6, versus 10D6x1.5 also makes no difference to him.
tarkin 05-02-05, 11:32 AM	This is legal. A Maximized Fireball is a Wizard spell of 8th level or less. Therefore you can use a Wish/miracle to duplicate it.
stamhaven 05-02-05, 11:48 AM	Almost legit. Wish has different spell duplication rules than Miracle (with drasticaly different costs). Wish:... • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. • Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. • Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school. • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school. XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. Miracle:... • Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains). • Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower. If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost. For a cleric of Mystra it is on their cleric list but for any other god the spell isn't on their list so I'd say the limits should be set accordingly.
tarkin 05-02-05, 01:23 PM	Maximized fireball = 3+3 = 6th. 6th is less than 7th, so it does not have to be on their list.
stamhaven 05-02-05, 02:25 PM	True, but in general the question of this thread was about weather metamagics can be used at all and the specific application of miracale, extend spell and holy star. Your post that "this is legal" followed by saying it's a wizard spell of 8th level or less works for wish but not miracle, dispite your example that works for either wish or miracle. I simply wanted to point out that we need to keep in mind the differences between wish and miracle and not trow them around as equivelent spells especially with respect to mimicing other spells where they have signifigant differences. In no way did I mean to imply that a maximized fireball was not legit for either, just that implying an 8th level wizard spell would be legit for miracle is not. Back on topic, there seem to be two relevent questions from the original post: one is weather metamagics can be used at all within a mimiced spell through miracle. The other seemed to be related to the specific example of a spell restricted to a different god on the cusp of qualifying for miracle mimicing. Personally, I'd rule metamagic is fine (without having the feat) so long as the save DC was set by the mimiced/metamagiced spell (without other metamagic I assume people heighten it as high as the limits of miracle allow), while specific example listed of extended holy star I would rule beyond a non mystra miracle. On reigning in miracle in general I'd want to have a conversation with any cleric casting it about the hazards of wasting their deity's time requesting frivilous miracles before he made any requests (that's not a judgement on this example in general, just a caution agains over use of intervention spells).
SamiPeikko 05-04-05, 04:49 AM	Back on topic, there seem to be two relevent questions from the original post: one is weather metamagics can be used at all within a mimiced spell through miracle. The other seemed to be related to the specific example of a spell restricted to a different god on the cusp of qualifying for miracle mimicing. Yes. I did not state this clearly, but I knew there were these two points to discuss. Personally I thought this kind of restricted Cleric spells must still be cleric spells, so limit of 8 would have applied, but you have made me change my mind. Personally, I'd rule metamagic is fine (without having the feat) so long as the save DC was set by the mimiced/metamagiced spell (without other metamagic I assume people heighten it as high as the limits of miracle allow), while specific example listed of extended holy star I would rule beyond a non mystra miracle. On reigning in miracle in general I'd want to have a conversation with any cleric casting it about the hazards of wasting their deity's time requesting frivilous miracles before he made any requests (that's not a judgement on this example in general, just a caution agains over use of intervention spells). On the topic of metamagiced spells it could be argued that metamagiced version of the spell with effective level of X os stronger than spell of the level X because feat is involved. And about selfconstraint in using miracles: I've read enough in this forum to know this would come up. I risk derailing this discussion by ansvering: It makes sense for my Cleric of Kelemvor and Doomguide (if he survives long enough to be that) to limit his use of miracle, but the effect of Holy Star is just something he might find usefull in really tight spot. It does not make sense for my Cleric of Tymora and Auspician to limit his use of miracle: He even gets one extra as a Domain spell! (I still am planning not to request full 7 /day.) In my view duplicating spells is something pretty minor and automatic (you can say subconscious) for gods and goddeses. Maybe attitude and respect are more important parts in asking a Mirace than fear of wasting his/her time?