Can miracle raise attribute points? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can miracle raise attribute points? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talmar
02-02-04, 03:00 PM I know wish can and I know the rules wish follows for raising ability points.

But what about miracle?

Can I cast miracle, taking the 5000xp hit, to raise an ability?

Thanks
tarkin
02-02-04, 04:06 PM No, it can not do that.

This is one of the few areas where Wish is better than Miracle. Usually Miracle is far better than Wish, as many of the things Wish does Miracle can do without the 5,000 xp cost.

However, you can use that spell as the pre-req for making the various inherent stat boosting books.

In fact, that is why the books are made - to let clerics get an inherent boost.

Of course, this costs some money as well as the xp.
Finwe
02-02-04, 04:47 PM Of course, the cleric can buy scrolls of wish and have his wizard buddy cast them for him...

Actually, if your deity was a deity of improvement or rejuvination or something else along those lines, I might allow it as a DM. Sacrificeing 5,000 XP and asking for the intervention of a deity (who, if they have a high divine rank, should be able to cast wish without hte XP penalty anyways..).
Aurotuli
02-02-04, 10:35 PM If a Clr 17 of Kord, who has taken the Strength domain and had an extra 5K XP available, wished for greater strength so as to better honor / be an example for/of / etc his deity, then Yes I would allow it. If the same cleric asked for Wisdom however, I most certainly would not.

In short, if the deity is well known for a particular ability attribute and the Clr has shown a devotion to that attribute (at least half ability adjustments went into that attribute, has taken the similar domain (if one exists), is willing to sacrifice 5K XP to their deity, etc) then I have no problem with allowing their Miracle. An inventive GM can probably think of one (or, rarely, two) abilities strongly associated with the Clr's deity that a Miracle spell can grant. A wise GM, however, will never tell the Cleric what those abilities are. For some deities it is self evident (Kord and Str, for instance), but for others it is less so. Let the Cleric make the attempt before allowing them to discover if the spell will work. If it does not, well, it might allow for some interesting role playing.
X105_Strike
02-03-04, 06:16 AM Miracle: ask for a tomb of *whatever*

whether it would cost 5000XP, i dont know
channel_dunlap
02-03-04, 07:18 AM I would probably not allow this. While I could see the in-game logic behind it, I see it as a fairly important factor in balancing the two spells.
Nagol
02-03-04, 08:06 AM Since Miracle is one of the two spells used to create the various tomes of improvement, I see no reason why it could not be used to give inherent bonuses directly.

You may have to have a good reason at the time since the diety has to agree to its use. It would definitely cost the 5000 xp to cast.

I can't see most dieties disagreeing with the request either. Put yourself in its shoes. One of your most successful troubleshooters wants to improve his survivability and is willing to bear the whole or majority of the cost himself. He has to ask permission because he needs to use company property to acquire the improvement. Do you say no? Or do you say yes and reinforce his obligation to you and your agenda?
Talmar
02-04-04, 08:08 AM After what Nagol stated I check out the latest RSRD and here is the requirement for one of the tomes. So I guess if a cleric and use miracle to create one of these tome's then it follow suit that he should be able to miracle up his own stats without writing the tome.

All the tomes list the same requirements.

Thanks all for your insight.

Manual of Bodily Health: This thick tome contains tips on health and fitness, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, he gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of manual) to his Constitution score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talmar 02-02-04, 03:00 PM	I know wish can and I know the rules wish follows for raising ability points. But what about miracle? Can I cast miracle, taking the 5000xp hit, to raise an ability? Thanks
tarkin 02-02-04, 04:06 PM	No, it can not do that. This is one of the few areas where Wish is better than Miracle. Usually Miracle is far better than Wish, as many of the things Wish does Miracle can do without the 5,000 xp cost. However, you can use that spell as the pre-req for making the various inherent stat boosting books. In fact, that is why the books are made - to let clerics get an inherent boost. Of course, this costs some money as well as the xp.
Finwe 02-02-04, 04:47 PM	Of course, the cleric can buy scrolls of wish and have his wizard buddy cast them for him... Actually, if your deity was a deity of improvement or rejuvination or something else along those lines, I might allow it as a DM. Sacrificeing 5,000 XP and asking for the intervention of a deity (who, if they have a high divine rank, should be able to cast wish without hte XP penalty anyways..).
Aurotuli 02-02-04, 10:35 PM	If a Clr 17 of Kord, who has taken the Strength domain and had an extra 5K XP available, wished for greater strength so as to better honor / be an example for/of / etc his deity, then Yes I would allow it. If the same cleric asked for Wisdom however, I most certainly would not. In short, if the deity is well known for a particular ability attribute and the Clr has shown a devotion to that attribute (at least half ability adjustments went into that attribute, has taken the similar domain (if one exists), is willing to sacrifice 5K XP to their deity, etc) then I have no problem with allowing their Miracle. An inventive GM can probably think of one (or, rarely, two) abilities strongly associated with the Clr's deity that a Miracle spell can grant. A wise GM, however, will never tell the Cleric what those abilities are. For some deities it is self evident (Kord and Str, for instance), but for others it is less so. Let the Cleric make the attempt before allowing them to discover if the spell will work. If it does not, well, it might allow for some interesting role playing.
X105_Strike 02-03-04, 06:16 AM	Miracle: ask for a tomb of whatever whether it would cost 5000XP, i dont know
channel_dunlap 02-03-04, 07:18 AM	I would probably not allow this. While I could see the in-game logic behind it, I see it as a fairly important factor in balancing the two spells.
Nagol 02-03-04, 08:06 AM	Since Miracle is one of the two spells used to create the various tomes of improvement, I see no reason why it could not be used to give inherent bonuses directly. You may have to have a good reason at the time since the diety has to agree to its use. It would definitely cost the 5000 xp to cast. I can't see most dieties disagreeing with the request either. Put yourself in its shoes. One of your most successful troubleshooters wants to improve his survivability and is willing to bear the whole or majority of the cost himself. He has to ask permission because he needs to use company property to acquire the improvement. Do you say no? Or do you say yes and reinforce his obligation to you and your agenda?
Talmar 02-04-04, 08:08 AM	After what Nagol stated I check out the latest RSRD and here is the requirement for one of the tomes. So I guess if a cleric and use miracle to create one of these tome's then it follow suit that he should be able to miracle up his own stats without writing the tome. All the tomes list the same requirements. Thanks all for your insight. Manual of Bodily Health: This thick tome contains tips on health and fitness, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, he gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of manual) to his Constitution score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book. Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.