Can one use spell-like abilities to make magic items? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can one use spell-like abilities to make magic items? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ksbsnowowl
03-31-06, 03:11 PM The item creation rules state that the spell required to make a magic item can come from another caster or another magic item. However, I'm wondering if it could be provided by someone's spell-like ability.

Take an Ogre Mage. It gets both Polymorph and Cone of Cold as spell-likes; could the ogre mage provide the cone of cold in order for a friendly wizard to craft a staff of Cone of Cold?

I'm thinking not, but thought I'd ask for the oppinions of others (preferably backed up with some sort of rules basis).

Thanks
tarkin
03-31-06, 03:51 PM Spell like abilities are not spells and can not substitute for them.

1) You can still use them to make certain magic items, BUT

2) You can not use spell like abilities to make magic items that have the spells as the pre-reqs

3) and you could never make a magic item that was a spell completion item or a spell trigger item because you don't have spells.

I.E. An Ogre would have to create a magic item, called an Ogre's Ring of Polymorph. It could grant Polymorph 1/day, and be priced the same. But only someone with a Spell Like Ability to Polymorph (an Ogre) could make the item.
malignor
03-31-06, 04:01 PM I'm curious where that's written.
tarkin
03-31-06, 04:11 PM That is a compilation of several rules.

1) You need to have the actual pre-reqs to make something. Pre reqs are specific, not 'something similar to a fireball spell'. It has to be a spell cast, or a magic item. No other exceptions listed:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

2) Spell trigger and spell completion items have to be made with actual spells, because of the description of what they are:

The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on).

and
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken

3) However, see that underlined part in my first quote? Just because most magic items have spells as pre-reqs does not mean you can't make other magic items. If you create a magic item that does not refer to a spell, then you can make it without knowing the spell.

Also, Warlock is the exception that proves the rule. They specify what magic items your abilities allow you to make/use. As Ogre does not do that, they can't do it.
mvincent
03-31-06, 04:28 PM 2) You can not use spell like abilities to make magic items that have the spells as the pre-reqsInterestingly, the RotG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a) says:
"To provide a spell prerequisite, a character must have prepared the spell (or know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard). The rules say you can use a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect to provide a spell prerequisite. A command or use-activated item cannot provide a spell prerequisite."

... however, that does not seem correct. Without further information, I would have to agree with tarkin.
tarkin
03-31-06, 04:40 PM The RotG article are notoriously full of variant rules/house rules.

However, I am no longer as certain as I was before.

Does anyone have an easy way to see what exactly the Warlock says about making magic items? Does it imply that spell like abilities are not normally good enough, or does it confirm the RoTG ruling?
Merestil Haye
03-31-06, 07:36 PM The Warlock (and the Artificer) both fake the spells by means of Use Magic Device checks, a class ability granted to those two classes.

I cannot remember the Artificer's class ability details; it's been a long time since we were playing the Eberron game, in which I am playing one, but the creator has to make a UMD check once per day of the crafting time, and pass one of these checks, to make the item. If these all ail, you get one last chance at the end of the crafing period. The DC is dependant on the spell(s) needed for the item.

For a warlock, the check is against a DC of 15 + spell level for arcane spells, or 25 + spell level for Divine spells. Given that the warlock gains the Imbue Item ability at 12th class level, and that Charisma is the warlock's saving-throw setting ability, I would expect that by that level he should have no trouble making arcane spell items (a +20 modifier would guarantee passing any check for 6th level arcane spells).

Of course you need the appriopriate item creation feats as well. This is less of a problem for the Artificer who getrs them as class bonus feats.
Seeker95
03-31-06, 07:52 PM The warlock is using a specific class ability Imbue Item (Su) to make magic items. It is similar to UMD (and actually uses UMD in the process) to "fool" the item into thinking the warlock has effectively cast a needed spell.
Nom
03-31-06, 08:46 PM DMG pg 215 explicitly allows SLA's to provide spell pre-reqs, subject to the normal spell pre-req rules (must be used 1/day per item creation). It's in the 2nd paragraph.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ksbsnowowl 03-31-06, 03:11 PM	The item creation rules state that the spell required to make a magic item can come from another caster or another magic item. However, I'm wondering if it could be provided by someone's spell-like ability. Take an Ogre Mage. It gets both Polymorph and Cone of Cold as spell-likes; could the ogre mage provide the cone of cold in order for a friendly wizard to craft a staff of Cone of Cold? I'm thinking not, but thought I'd ask for the oppinions of others (preferably backed up with some sort of rules basis). Thanks
tarkin 03-31-06, 03:51 PM	Spell like abilities are not spells and can not substitute for them. 1) You can still use them to make certain magic items, BUT 2) You can not use spell like abilities to make magic items that have the spells as the pre-reqs 3) and you could never make a magic item that was a spell completion item or a spell trigger item because you don't have spells. I.E. An Ogre would have to create a magic item, called an Ogre's Ring of Polymorph. It could grant Polymorph 1/day, and be priced the same. But only someone with a Spell Like Ability to Polymorph (an Ogre) could make the item.
malignor 03-31-06, 04:01 PM	I'm curious where that's written.
tarkin 03-31-06, 04:11 PM	That is a compilation of several rules. 1) You need to have the actual pre-reqs to make something. Pre reqs are specific, not 'something similar to a fireball spell'. It has to be a spell cast, or a magic item. No other exceptions listed: Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). 2) Spell trigger and spell completion items have to be made with actual spells, because of the description of what they are: The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). and Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken 3) However, see that underlined part in my first quote? Just because most magic items have spells as pre-reqs does not mean you can't make other magic items. If you create a magic item that does not refer to a spell, then you can make it without knowing the spell. Also, Warlock is the exception that proves the rule. They specify what magic items your abilities allow you to make/use. As Ogre does not do that, they can't do it.
mvincent 03-31-06, 04:28 PM	2) You can not use spell like abilities to make magic items that have the spells as the pre-reqsInterestingly, the RotG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a) says: "To provide a spell prerequisite, a character must have prepared the spell (or know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard). The rules say you can use a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect to provide a spell prerequisite. A command or use-activated item cannot provide a spell prerequisite." ... however, that does not seem correct. Without further information, I would have to agree with tarkin.
tarkin 03-31-06, 04:40 PM	The RotG article are notoriously full of variant rules/house rules. However, I am no longer as certain as I was before. Does anyone have an easy way to see what exactly the Warlock says about making magic items? Does it imply that spell like abilities are not normally good enough, or does it confirm the RoTG ruling?
Merestil Haye 03-31-06, 07:36 PM	The Warlock (and the Artificer) both fake the spells by means of Use Magic Device checks, a class ability granted to those two classes. I cannot remember the Artificer's class ability details; it's been a long time since we were playing the Eberron game, in which I am playing one, but the creator has to make a UMD check once per day of the crafting time, and pass one of these checks, to make the item. If these all ail, you get one last chance at the end of the crafing period. The DC is dependant on the spell(s) needed for the item. For a warlock, the check is against a DC of 15 + spell level for arcane spells, or 25 + spell level for Divine spells. Given that the warlock gains the Imbue Item ability at 12th class level, and that Charisma is the warlock's saving-throw setting ability, I would expect that by that level he should have no trouble making arcane spell items (a +20 modifier would guarantee passing any check for 6th level arcane spells). Of course you need the appriopriate item creation feats as well. This is less of a problem for the Artificer who getrs them as class bonus feats.
Seeker95 03-31-06, 07:52 PM	The warlock is using a specific class ability Imbue Item (Su) to make magic items. It is similar to UMD (and actually uses UMD in the process) to "fool" the item into thinking the warlock has effectively cast a needed spell.
Nom 03-31-06, 08:46 PM	DMG pg 215 explicitly allows SLA's to provide spell pre-reqs, subject to the normal spell pre-req rules (must be used 1/day per item creation). It's in the 2nd paragraph.