Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JustSayNo 07-16-07, 05:57 AM	I was wondering after resding the stuff about Orbs in another post can they be Spell Turned ?
CantripN 07-16-07, 05:59 AM	Nope. Ranged Touch spells aren't targeted spells, so they can't be turned. Nor can Disintegrate. You just toss them and hope to hit something; They just happen to be in the way.
JustSayNo 07-16-07, 06:06 AM	but they are targeted spells otherwise you would not need a ranged touch attack ?
CantripN 07-16-07, 06:12 AM	but they are targeted spells otherwise you would not need a ranged touch attack ? Au contraire, mon chéri ! Targeted Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets) Effect Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#effect) Orbs are part of the second category.
runestar 07-16-07, 07:30 AM	but they are targeted spells otherwise you would not need a ranged touch attack ? If they were targeted spells, then all the more you should not need to make an attack roll. ;)
magenificent 07-16-07, 10:50 AM	The way you can tell if a spell is targeted or not is if it lists a "target(s):" in its entry line. You will notice the Orb spells do not posses one. While it is easy to assume all spell entries use precisely the same template thats not the case.
Avatar of Kokusho 07-16-07, 11:21 AM	.... My DM screwed me over....even I didn't know this...:headexplo
kithicus 07-16-07, 06:52 PM	Now there is a spell of ray deflecting, whish stops you from being hit by all ranged touch attacks.
yrogerg 07-16-07, 07:04 PM	Now there is a spell of ray deflecting, whish stops you from being hit by all ranged touch attacks. Does it? Or just Effect: Ray spells?
Thiez 07-16-07, 07:09 PM	Spell Compendium, page 166. Protected against ALL ranged touch attacks.
Nezkrul 07-16-07, 08:16 PM	Globe of Invulnerability will protect you as well, and thats Core material.
JustSayNo 07-18-07, 03:36 AM	so you are saying that Magic Missle cannt be Turned either ? There is the spell you are using can hit one or more creatures then yes it should be turnable not a area attack spell . I would take how Spell Turning is written that if you are picked as the target/object the creature being shoot at they all make you one target . Saying that something is not a target because it only hits one being is a little ****-istic about things ! things that you need to hit be it a roll to hit something or just I am Charming that creature both are valid targets Quote from Spell Turning from d20SRD Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. just being the target of the spell means you turn it thats simple
Zarith 07-18-07, 07:22 AM	Examples from SRD Spell Turning Abjuration Level: Luck 7, Magic 7, Sor/Wiz 7 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Until expended or 10 min./level Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. From seven to ten (1d4+6) spell levels are affected by the turning. The exact number is rolled secretly. When you are targeted by a spell of higher level than the amount of spell turning you have left, that spell is partially turned. The subtract the amount of spell turning left from the spell level of the incoming spell, then divide the result by the spell level of the incoming spell to see what fraction of the effect gets through. For damaging spells, you and the caster each take a fraction of the damage. For nondamaging spells, each of you has a proportional chance to be affected. Magic Missile Evocation [Force] Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes Spell turning is effective against MM Acid Splash Conjuration (Creation) [Acid] Level: Sor/Wiz 0 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One missile of acid Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Spell turning not effective against acid splash Acid Arrow Conjuration (Creation) [Acid] Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Effect: One arrow of acid Duration: 1 round + 1 round per three levels Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No A magical arrow of acid springs from your hand and speeds to its target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The arrow deals 2d4 points of acid damage with no splash damage. For every three caster levels (to a maximum of 18th), the acid, unless somehow neutralized, lasts for another round, dealing another 2d4 points of damage in that round. Spell turning not effective against Melfs Acid Arrow The Orb spells (not OGL or I'd use them specifically) work like Melfs.
MikeyP 07-18-07, 09:50 AM	Examples from SRD Spell Turning Abjuration Level: Luck 7, Magic 7, Sor/Wiz 7 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Until expended or 10 min./level Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. From seven to ten (1d4+6) spell levels are affected by the turning. The exact number is rolled secretly. When you are targeted by a spell of higher level than the amount of spell turning you have left, that spell is partially turned. The subtract the amount of spell turning left from the spell level of the incoming spell, then divide the result by the spell level of the incoming spell to see what fraction of the effect gets through. For damaging spells, you and the caster each take a fraction of the damage. For nondamaging spells, each of you has a proportional chance to be affected. Spell turning not effective against Melfs Acid Arrow The Orb spells (not OGL or I'd use them specifically) work like Melfs. Looks to me that it implies "touch range" (as in spells with a range of touch) and not "ranged touch" spells, as the two are distinctly different. I realize it could be simply an issue of semantics, but a lot of spell descriptions come down to semantics. Either way, it's poorly worded in the original description (IMO). Edit: But I see now how "effect" spells are not affected. Kind of stupid if you ask me; it makes the spell relatively useless IMO.
Zarith 07-18-07, 10:07 AM	Edit: But I see now how "effect" spells are not affected. Kind of stupid if you ask me; it makes the spell relatively useless IMO. I agree, spells like the Orb series makes things a little easier for players. I remember the good ol' days when Golems were immune to most magic.;) I think the strange wording is there to point out that a "Range:Touch" spell is not necessarily the same as a "Target:Creature(s)" spell.
MikeyP 07-18-07, 10:12 AM	I really do have a problem with the orb spells, but it really all stems from the fact that they are conjuration spells. (No SR, not affected by AMF, Spell Turning, and how they can be conjured fire that burns hotter than even fire from the elemental plane of fire in such a small form, and that is somehow magically held together and sent forth towards the target- but it's not magic) *sigh*
Valoy_Muniz 07-18-07, 02:19 PM	I really do have a problem with the orb spells, but it really all stems from the fact that they are conjuration spells. (No SR, not affected by AMF, Spell Turning, and how they can be conjured fire that burns hotter than even fire from the elemental plane of fire in such a small form, and that is somehow magically held together and sent forth towards the target- but it's not magic) *sigh* What my DM said to expain it think of it as a summoning a fire (if fire) in a glass globe that always break on contack releasing the fire inside. You just get a super throw as a free action with it when you cast it.
Wind of Darkness 07-18-07, 03:42 PM	Kind of stupid if you ask me; it makes the spell relatively useless IMO. Useless? Hardly. There are plenty of defenses against ranged touch attacks. Concealment (blur and displacement are fairly low level, y'know), mirror image, anything that grants a dodge or deflection bonus to AC, and the aforementioned ray deflection all work wonderfully. Against targeted spells, the only defenses other than spell turning are to boost all your saves as high as you can (easier said than done, especially since Wizards and Sorcerors both have two poor saves) or to have Spell Resistance. I think the strange wording is there to point out that a "Range:Touch" spell is not necessarily the same as a "Target:Creature(s)" spell. Most "Range: Touch" spells also have "Target: Creature touched". The wording is there to say that spell turning can't block these spells even though they are targeted.
kithicus 07-18-07, 04:57 PM	Useless? Hardly. There are plenty of defenses against ranged touch attacks. Concealment (blur and displacement are fairly low level, y'know), mirror image, anything that grants a dodge or deflection bonus to AC, and the aforementioned ray deflection all work wonderfully. Against targeted spells, the only defenses other than spell turning are to boost all your saves as high as you can (easier said than done, especially since Wizards and Sorcerors both have two poor saves) or to have Spell Resistance. Most "Range: Touch" spells also have "Target: Creature touched". The wording is there to say that spell turning can't block these spells even though they are targeted. a little off topic but blur and displacment are useless against a spell like glitter dust, it basicly negates the effects.
Pentar 07-18-07, 05:13 PM	so you are saying that Magic Missle cannt be Turned either ? Actually Magic Missile will get turned because that is a targeted spell, unlike the Orb spells. Magic Missile does not require an attack roll. You indicate the target and the spell hits. If you are unable to select a target (i.e. because of Concealment or Cover) then you can't target them. You can still throw/shoot a Ray spell at a target in Concealment or behind Cover... your attack roll gets modified by the appropriate penalties, or you suffer the % miss chance as associated with those effects. For example, hitting someone under the effects of Displacement with a Magic Missile does not suffer a 50% miss chance. But Orb spells do. Thus, Magic Missile is turned, but Orb of ... is not.
cwslyclgh 07-19-07, 12:19 AM	a little off topic but blur and displacment are useless against a spell like glitter dust, it basicly negates the effects.glitterdust is an area: spell, Wind of Darkness was suggesting those spells as defense against ranged touch spells. against area spells, a globe of invulnerability (or its lesser version) or spell resistance is your best bet for a defense (along with evasion if the spell deals damage, as most damage dealing area spells allow a reflex save for 1/2).
Ketone 07-19-07, 03:31 AM	Slightly off topic, but aren't the orb spells a little... in a word... hax? It just seems to me and correct me if I'm wrong, but what they do is everything and more than what the 8th level spell polar ray does. The only thing polar ray has going for it is the higher max damage, and so boo-hoo, your 4th level spell does a little less damage than the 8th level spell. I still think it's too powerful.
cwslyclgh 07-19-07, 05:51 AM	polar ray is incredibly under-powered for an 8th level spell... it should probably be 6th level (which is what it was when it was just one function of Otiluke's Freezing Sphere).
JustSayNo 07-19-07, 02:33 PM	so you are all saying that Orb spells are not targeted spells good to know. I dont know about this but if you have to roll to hit something or say I am casting a spell at the big guy in front thats a targeted spell its that simple .
Pentar 07-19-07, 02:55 PM	so you are all saying that Orb spells are not targeted spells good to know. I dont know about this but if you have to roll to hit something or say I am casting a spell at the big guy in front thats a targeted spell its that simple . No, that isn't targeted - that is aimed. Think about it this way, you cast Shocking Grasp, which like a ray spell, requires a touch attack to hit (in this case, a melee touch, but an attack roll all the same). For target spells, you need to select your target by the time you finish your spell; Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. ... so if Shocking Grasp requires you to select your target, because you're making an attack roll with it, what happens if you decide to just hold the charge for the spell? What if you miss the attack and then decide to select use the charge on a different target? By the rules, you'd be "breaking the rules" of how a target spell works. Clearly then, spells like Shocking Grasp and ray spells like Disintegrate and Orb of ... are not target spells. You select what you want to fire, but it doesn't mean you'll hit. A "targeted" effect means that so long as you have line of sight/effect, your target is automatically affected (saves, resistance, etc. still applies).
Vaelan 07-19-07, 03:30 PM	I dont know about this but if you have to roll to hit something or say I am casting a spell at the big guy in front thats a targeted spell its that simple . You are using targetted as a descriptive term whereas the book defines it and uses it as a rules term. Also, using the two terms like that is inconsistent. You cannot target a creature with total concealment. You can still fire off a volley of Scorching Rays into his square to attempt to hit him. If ranged touch attacks were targetted, this wouldn't be possible.
JustSayNo 07-20-07, 03:09 AM	with total concealment you cannt see them anyway
JustSayNo 07-20-07, 03:09 AM	but you can target a square
Vaelan 07-20-07, 03:47 AM	but you can target a square You can attempt to attack someone in a square. It isn't targetting. Target is a term explicitly defined by the rules. The explicit definition within the rules overrules what you think the term means and even its common uses. Read the rules that CantripN linked. There are three types of spells: Target, Effect, and Area. Spell Turning states that targetted spells get turned and then, in the very next sentence, says that Effect and Area spells are not turned. This is really pretty basic.