Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prylanter 10-07-03, 03:08 AM	Hello Again Everyone, Are spells with the Fear descriptor in their heading vulnerable to the Aura of Courage possessed by Paladins of 3rd or higher level? There are of course many effects produced by monsters and a few PrC’s that generate a fear-like ability, for which the Paladin ability seems well suited to defend against. But what of spells besides Fear, such as Phantasmal Killer, that have the word Fear in their heading? Are Paladins simply immune to these spells as well? As always, your thoughts and comments are appreciated. -Prylanter
ManTimeForgot 10-07-03, 08:04 AM	You can search for a thread about this. I cannot remember what the concensus was, if any. My first impression is no and yes. No the paladin is not completely immune to the spell, because it is also mind affecting, but since he is immune to fear he should automatically make his save. So a paladin will not fear the creature before him, but the spell still causes the paladin mental/physical taxation. In short the paladin takes 3d6 damage. My 2cp anyway... Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Prylanter 10-08-03, 01:45 PM	I'm going to hazard a guess that the answer to my question was a no brainer, based off of the single response received (thanks to ManTimeForgot for replying). According to customer service, Aura of Courage does in fact negate any spell that has the Fear descriptor in its heading. The ability is much more potent then I first thought. Anyone else want to comment? -Prylanter
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-08-03, 09:46 PM	I don't have a problem making paladins immune to any spell with the [fear] descriptor. It's not that 'big' a bost in power. It's too bad that when wizards put out 3.0 that they did not make a little list of some 'unclear things'...then when they make a new edition someday they can look back and say 'oh, we should clear this up'. What? Oh they kinda came out with a new edition to 'fix' things, but they missed this. Oh, they missed more then this......oh, well.....maybe next time BT
Wizard 10-10-03, 01:42 AM	MTF is exactly right.
Evil Spearman 10-10-03, 04:31 AM	Originally posted by Wizard MTF is exactly right. No he is not. Immunity to fear is Immunity to fear. According to the MM, Immunity is treated as Unbeatable Spell Resistance. Phantasmal Killer obsreves SR. Phantasmal Killer is negated by Aura of Courage. End of discussion.
ManTimeForgot 10-10-03, 04:56 AM	Immunity to fear = immunity to a spell which makes use of fear? I contend that immunity to fear does not equate with an immunity to magic of any sort. I also contend that immunity to fear only makes one immune to the effects of spells which generate fear. Thus a paladin is till affected by a fear spell, but the spells effects fail to affect the paladin. Following that same logic the spell should still affect the paladin. Along those same lines the Paladin should be unaffected by the spell's effects, but the fear effect causes death not damage. The damage is strain on the body/mind. Last time I checked the paladin is not immune to that. Ergo the paladin is not completely immune to the spell. (I submit it would not be overpowered to have the paladin be completely immune to the spell, but until shown otherwise by a source higher than myself, I will continue to use the logic as stated above). Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Arilou_skiff 10-10-03, 07:42 AM	I submit that immunity to fear makes one immune to spells with the [Fear] description.
Evil Spearman 10-10-03, 11:45 AM	Originally posted by Arilou_skiff I submit that immunity to fear makes one immune to spells with the [Fear] description. Exactly right. Phantasmal Killer has the [Fear] descriptor. Hells bells people, the frelling spell desccription itself lends to fearless being immune.SRD, Spell list description: Phantasmal Killer: Fearsome illusion kills subject or deals 3d6 damage.SRD, Phantasmal Killer: Spell Resistance: YesSRD, spell description for Phantasmal Killer: You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject’s subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell’s subject can see the phantasmal killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage. If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.SRD, spell Descriptors: Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on. SRD, on Spell Immunity: Spell Immunity (Ex): A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.Emphasis mine. Is that enough of a "higher source", or do I have to bust out my crayons? It can't get any clearer than that MTF. The rules governing all of this are crystal clear. End of Discussion.
Prylanter 10-10-03, 03:00 PM	Thanks to everyone for responding. It's nice to see a debate forming. Originally posted by Evil Spearman Is that enough of a "higher source", or do I have to bust out my crayons? Evil Spearman: Condescension has no place in a debate. I would appreciate it if you removed this line from your post. Thank you. -Prylanter
Wizard 10-10-03, 03:26 PM	He got me first as well. It ain't Dragoon---don't let the avatar fool you.
Prylanter 10-10-03, 05:02 PM	Wizard, Thank you for pointing that out. I have to admit I'm so used to seeing that avatar tied with condescending posts, that I assumed it was Dragoon doing the posting. I suppose this means that I'm an "ass" for assuming, eh? Oh well. -Prylanter
ManTimeForgot 10-10-03, 05:11 PM	Show me where it says the paladin has spell immunity to fear spells and I will agree with you. As it stands the paladin is immune to the effects of fear, but is not immune to spells which are fear based. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Bopple 10-10-03, 09:57 PM	Hmm...but the problem is the 3d6 damage is also due to a fear effect. So by rule, paladins are immune to P-K. On the other hand, imo, paladin's immunity to fear was implemented to ensure the image of a resolute paladin facing a most fearful & powerful BBEG. So just a ruling of automatic success of rolls against fear effects rather than immunity can be quite reasonable.
ManTimeForgot 10-10-03, 10:06 PM	The argument here, at least, is that the death effect is clearly a fear effect, but that the 3d6 damage isn't so clearly a fear effect. The spell also has a mind affecting descriptor, and the 3d6 damage is the result of mental trauma, which I would suggest still affects the paladin. I could be wrong. I accept that the paladin might be completely immune to the spell, but I do not believe so. There has been no ruling on this, so at this point it is sheer speculation on our part. One could argue the mental trauma is a function of the fear affect in which case the paladin is immune to the damage. One could argue that the spell itself produces mental trauma and that that is not a function of the fear affect, as such the paladin would be subject to damage. (If someone could post a link to the previous thread on this topic it would be much appreciated) Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Bopple 10-10-03, 11:11 PM	If we take it to the letter, we can't really say what caused 3d6 damage. But it's rational to think it's due to the fear. Be it mind-affecting, what kind of mind-affecting effect it is? Still it's fear effect. Mind-affecting effect itself doesn't incur damage or death. Perhaps mind-exhaustion might damage mental ability or make him fatigued. But HP damage doesn't make sense. More specifically, it forces 2 saves. First will, then fortitude. Will is for disbelieving. Then Fort for death or damage. Death effect is fear effect, but fort-half effect(damage) is not? I'd say it's not reasonable. But I don't like the way how they implemented Aura of Courage. I'd prefer 3d6 damage for PK on paladin myself.
ManTimeForgot 10-10-03, 11:16 PM	Just to clarify Bopple, I have decided after having discussed with fellow posters, that from now on all paladins in games I run will simply be immune to the shaken and panic conditions, but not immune to fear totally. Check out the "With regards to the paladin dilemma thread" over on the What's a DM to do forum. I have a post there that illustrates why having someone totally immune to fear is a baaad thing. To be honest I really only defend this position because iirc the previous thread came to the conclusion that this was the correct one, which is why I would like it if someone could find the old thread and post the link. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Vanigo 10-11-03, 10:22 PM	From the SRD Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. From the SRD Phantasmal Killer Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting] Hmm. Seems to me that paladins are immune to fear, but not immune to fear effects. There's a difference; Being immune to death effects is not the same thing as being immune to death. However, the paladin does benifit from the +4 morale bonus against fear effects when targeted by a phantasmal killer. Phantasmal killer has the [Fear] descriptor, clearly labeling it as a fear effect. This, at least in my mind, is inarguable. (Unless you want to argue that a paladin does not count as an ally of himself, but let's not go there.) That said, however, I'd be inclined to let a paladin shrug off a phantasmal killer, even though the rules don't specifically state that he's immune. Phantasmal killer damages or kills a creature by making it so horrified that its heart stops beating or its synapses stop firing or its muscles tense up and rip themselves loose or its ichor flees in terror, pouring out of every pore or something. If it's impossible to make you feel fear, you can't get that scared, and the spell is rendered impotent. This is not explicitly stated in the rules, it's just how I'd rule it.
Bopple 10-11-03, 11:26 PM	Umm...I think you're reading it to the letter. But if you read it to the letter too well, a paladin don't get +4 bonus to fear effects, for it says "his allies". I don't think it's fair to read it to the letter when it's useful for us, but not when it's inconvenient.
Dark Lancer 10-12-03, 10:55 AM	Vanigo - Try using the entire part of the quote in yer arguement. Ye quoted it, but ignored the most important part. :bored: SRD, Aura of Courage: Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).Emphasis mine.SRD, Fear conditions: Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.Taken with all of the other quotes I have already provided, then let's be clear aboot something: Paladin's are immune to any and all fear effects, spells and abilities. To say otherwise is a houserule. End of Discussion.
klyre 10-12-03, 04:10 PM	With all this debate, has anyone actually asked WoTC customer support or someone else with some veil of officiality?
Vanigo 10-12-03, 05:08 PM	Originally posted by Dark Lancer Vanigo - Try using the entire part of the quote in yer arguement. Ye quoted it, but ignored the most important part. :bored: Emphasis mine.Taken with all of the other quotes I have already provided, then let's be clear aboot something: Paladin's are immune to any and all fear effects, spells and abilities. To say otherwise is a houserule. End of Discussion. I disagree. Being immune to fear and being immune to fear effects are two different things. Arguing otherwise is, as I said, like saying that being immune to death effects is the same as being immune to death. The two are related, but death ward does not make you unkillable.
Hypersmurf 10-12-03, 07:53 PM	With all this debate, has anyone actually asked WoTC customer support or someone else with some veil of officiality? Uh, if you go back to the third post of the thread, right up at the top of the page... "According to customer service, Aura of Courage does in fact negate any spell that has the Fear descriptor in its heading." -Hyp.
Dark Lancer 10-13-03, 05:29 PM	PHB, Glossary of Terms: fear effect: Any spell or effect that causes the victim to become cowering, frightened, panicked, or to suffer from some other effect defined in the descritpion of the specific spell or item in question.SRD, Phantasmal Killer: If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear.Immunity to Fear grants Immunity to fear effects (Fear and Fear effects are the same). Death Effects does not always equal Death, as there are other sources that can cause death. It's both basic logic and clearly spelled out in the books people. Cat, quit harassing me - Drez
Prylanter 10-13-03, 06:28 PM	Originally posted by Dark Lancer There's only continuing debate because some posters have no clue what they are talking aboot. :rolleyes: This sort of post is entirely unecessary. In addition, masquerading as someone else is, as I recall, against the CoC. Thus, I am going to report your post. -Prylanter
TrueExodite 10-13-03, 06:42 PM	Indeed, being Immune to fear makes one immune to Phantasmal Killer, including the 3d6 damage. I fail to see how this could even be argued in any other way. Or are you people actually suggesting that being Immune to fire still results in half damage from a Fireball? Find where it's specified which part of the Phantasmal Killer is the fear effect and get back to me. Until then it's all of it, including the 3d6 damage on a successfull save.
april151978 10-13-03, 08:49 PM	Originally posted by Dark Lancer There's only continuing debate because some posters have no clue what they are talking aboot. :rolleyes: vanigo - totally wrong. Learn what the frell a fear effect is anyway bub. Immunity to Fear grants Immunity to fear effects (Fear and Fear effects are the same). Death Effects does not always equal Death, as there are other sources that can cause death. It's both basic logic and clearly spelled out in the books people. Try actually reading the manuals people. :nonono: While I agree with you, your tone is again less than plesant... I'm sorry that some people can't understand or read it for themselves, but that is no reason to shove it in thier face and insult them... No one learns anything that way except to do the same thing to another person when they are in your shoes... These boards are hostile enough; let's all try to calm down a bit and post our thoughts...
WizO_Catoblepas 10-13-03, 09:51 PM	Ok everyone, let's focus on the topic of the thread, and not each other. Thanks.
Mole 10-14-03, 03:49 AM	Originally posted by Bopple Umm...I think you're reading it to the letter. But if you read it to the letter too well, a paladin don't get +4 bonus to fear effects, for it says "his allies". I don't think it's fair to read it to the letter when it's useful for us, but not when it's inconvenient. My italics. The paladin is immune to fear. Therefore he does not need a +4 bonus to his saves - indeed it would make no sense ! The wording "by the letter" makes perfect sense. I fail to understand your doubt.
Bopple 10-14-03, 06:53 AM	Mole, I think you misunderstood. Re-read mine and Vanigo's.
Dark Lancer 10-14-03, 10:50 AM	Bopple, ye and vanigo are totally wrong. How many frelling times do I have to show ye conclusively all of the facts of the matter? Ever facet of this arguement has been addressed with quotes from the books. Immunity to Fear makes someone IMMUNE to Phantasmal Killer - and every Fear Effect.
Bopple 10-14-03, 11:20 AM	Hmm...was my wording confusing? That's what basically i was saying, Lancer.
Dark Lancer 10-14-03, 01:34 PM	For ye mebbe. Vanigo is/was under the impression that a paladin could still be hurt by the spell. That is patently wrong. Ye lumped yerself in with him, so I corrected ye.
Vanigo 10-14-03, 06:24 PM	Originally posted by Dark Lancer Immunity to Fear grants Immunity to fear effects (Fear and Fear effects are the same). Death Effects does not always equal Death, as there are other sources that can cause death. It's both basic logic and clearly spelled out in the books people. I agree that a paladin should probably be immune to phantasmal killer, and, were I DMing such a case, would rule thusly. However, I don't follow your logic that "conclusively" shows that this is explicitly stated in the rules. Where does it say that fear and fear effects are the same? You say death effects and death are not the same because there are ways to cause death other than death effects. How do you know there are no ways to cause fear other than fear effects? Did you check every spell, magic item, and monster ever published? No? Then how can you make that claim? Admittedly, I'd be a bit surprised if there was, but there could be. Now, if you point out somewhere in the core books where it says "Fear and fear effects are the same thing" or "Immunity to fear grants immunity to fear effects," I'll admit you're right and go away. But you haven't done that. You have covered every other facet of the debate, but your argument hinges on that point, and I'm not willing to concede it yet. In conclusion: Basic logic? Yes. Clearly spelled out in the books? No.
Dark Lancer 10-15-03, 12:32 PM	PHB, Glossary of Terms: fear effect: Any spell or effect that causes the victim to become cowering, frightened, panicked, or to suffer from some other effect defined in the description of the specific spell or item in question.SRD, Phantasmal Killer: If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. SRD, Aura of Courage: Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). SRD, on Spell Immunity: Spell Immunity (Ex): A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.How is this not clear? Immunity to fear makes a character immune to any and all sources of fear. Spells Like Phantasmal Killer, that have the [Fear] descriptor, ar fear effects. Paladin's are immune to fear effects. So, following the simple 1+1=2 simple structure, paladin's are immune to Phantasmal Killer. The spell can't even touch them. Christ on a crutch people. If this confuses ye, then how do ye deal with real problems with the magic system? :bored:
sanishiver 10-15-03, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Dark Lancer If this confuses ye, then how do ye deal with real problems with the magic system? :bored: Well, we’d probably start by ignoring anyone who insisted on force-feeding his or her pedantic rules interpretations down our throats. We’d also try and avoid anyone who (when faced with someone who doesn’t “get it” on the first go around) is unable to master their temper and thus resort to feigned and direct personal attacks in a misguided effort to get a point across. And that’s just for starters. I’ll be happy to email you personally Unholydragoon/Evil Spearman/Dark Lancer/Nobodyreadthis if you’d like to here a few more "colorful" examples. :smirk: :whatsthis ps: Whenever you feel angry because you're being censored (or whatever is happening in your little world at the moment) please don't come here to vent. Go bang your head up against a wall and save us the trouble, OK?
Sancus 10-15-03, 04:42 PM	So, I'm curious, then. If a spell had both the Fire and Death descriptors, would those of you using the weird Phantasmal-Killer-Is-Not-Entirely-A-Fear-Effect logic rule that Death Ward would only make you automatically succeed in your save, but you'd still take any actual damage? That seems like an awfully arbitrary way to split a spell, when by definition descriptors apply to the entire spell not pieces of it.
bitnine 10-15-03, 04:44 PM	Originally posted by Sancus So, I'm curious, then. If a spell had both the Fire and Death descriptors, would those of you using the weird Phantasmal-Killer-Is-Not-Entirely-A-Fear-Effect logic rule that Death Ward would only make you automatically succeed in your save, but you'd still take any actual damage? A better example might be a [Mind-affecting] spell which also has the [Evil] descriptor and doesn't allow a save. Would you say that a creature that's immune to [Mind-affecting] spells and effects still gets hit full-on by this thing? If so... Well, that's odd.
Vanigo 10-15-03, 08:45 PM	From the SRD: FEAR Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked. Shaken: Characters who are shaken... Frightened: Characters who are frightened ... Panicked: Characters who are panicked are ... Fear, in the rules of D&D, means one of three specific conditions. A paladin is immune to fear. He cannot be shaken, frightened, or panicked. PHB, Glossary of Terms: fear effect: Any spell or effect that causes the victim to become cowering, frightened, panicked, or to suffer from some other effect defined in the description of the specific spell or item in question. Anything that causes fear, apparently, is a fear effect. I'll concede the point. (I could argue that, since being shaken is not listed, some fear can be caused by non-fear effects. However, I'm assuming that was a case of accidental omission.) However, not every fear effect causes fear. Phantasmal Killer says it causes the subject to die from fear. However, the "from fear" is clearly flavor text, as being shaken, frightened, or panicked cannot directly kill you. As flavor text, it has no direct bearing on the way the spell interacts with other spells, effects, and abilities. It makes perfect sense that a paladin would be immune to fear effects. However, by the strictest interpretation of the rules, it seems to me that he isn't.
sanishiver 10-15-03, 09:05 PM	Originally posted by Vanigo Phantasmal Killer says it causes the subject to die from fear. However, the "from fear" is clearly flavor text, as being shaken, frightened, or panicked cannot directly kill you. I agree that the flavor text is not enough to to count for immunity. However, that's where the [Fear] descriptor comes into play. That descriptor tells us that the spell is a Fear effect. Ergo a Paladin of at least 3rd level is immune. This process of cross checking descriptors against racial and class abilities is nothing new, as players of Elves (who check for [mind-affecting] descriptors in order to gain their +2 racial saving throw bonus vs. Enchantments) will tell you. :whatsthis ps: Dragoon, I managed to write all that quite easily, without an ounce of spite seeping into my words. Why is it so hard for you to do this, hmm? :rolleyes:
Hypersmurf 10-15-03, 09:15 PM	I agree that the flavor text is not enough to to count for immunity. However, that's where the [Fear] descriptor comes into play. Well, you're missing his point a little. The Fear descriptor tells us it is a Fear effect. Some Fear effects cause 'fear' - the shaken, frightened, panicked conditions - to which a Paladin is immune. Other Fear effects cause things that are not 'fear' - like death, or damage. The paladin is not immune to death or damage, and Vanigo's interpretation is that he is not immune to [Fear], but rather to 'fear' - the shaken, frightened, panicked conditions. So according to that reading, Phantasmal Killer is not one of the [Fear] effects that a Paladin is immune to, because it is not causing 'fear', but rather causing death or damage. I don't agree with him, but I can follow his line of reasoning. -Hyp.
sanishiver 10-16-03, 02:14 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf The paladin is not immune to death or damage, and Vanigo's interpretation is that he is not immune to [Fear], but rather to 'fear' - the shaken, frightened, panicked conditions. Hmm... my reading of Vanigo's text lead me to believe he was ignoring [Fear] altogether, and relying only on spell text (that is, he was looking for shaken, frightened, panicked conditions) to determine whether or not a Paladin was immune. :whatsthis
Hypersmurf 10-16-03, 04:18 PM	Hmm... my reading of Vanigo's text lead me to believe he was ignoring [Fear] altogether, and relying only on spell text (that is, he was looking for shaken, frightened, panicked conditions) to determine whether or not a Paladin was immune. That's what I got as well. -Hyp.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-16-03, 04:27 PM	SRD, on Spell Immunity: Spell Immunity (Ex): A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity. This implies that paladins are not immune to supernatural fear effects, like a devil's fear aura. In any event IMO a paladin is immune to the spell. On the other hand, the spell is worthless since it allows two saves of different types, and paladins are known for having really good saves anyway.
sanishiver 10-16-03, 05:15 PM	Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead ...paladins are known for having really good saves anyway. Very true, that. :whatsthis
WizO_Catoblepas 10-16-03, 06:24 PM	Unfortunately, I'm going to have to close this thread at this time. It looks like some of the members in this thread would rather make personal comments than discuss the subject matter. To everyone else, I apologize that I'm having to do this. Thanks.