Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 12-12-07, 12:22 AM	A great planar ally spell will allow you to call up to 18 hit dice of elementals or outsiders. A huge elemental has 16 hit dice, and a planetar has 14. Do you run the spell so that it calls only the base forms of these creatures, or do you allow it to call a form advanced to the full 18 hit dice? Is there any ruling anywhere that guides your decision? If not, why did you choose to run it that way? Thanks! :)
PhaedrusXY 12-12-07, 12:33 AM	You can even call specific creatures that have class levels and stuff. Examples are given in the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Thorsbjorn 12-12-07, 12:39 AM	You can even call specific creatures that have class levels and stuff. Examples are given in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Thanks, Phaedrus! Do you know where in the book I might find the examples? I'm looking through the book and I found the expanded summoning list in the back, but I'm not seeing the examples you mentioned. Thanks! :)
Mrloki 12-12-07, 12:59 AM	when you read the creatures biography it mentions that you can summon them
Dead_Weasel 12-12-07, 01:02 AM	Phaedrus is referring to the "Champion of [Celestial Paragon]"s, which can be found after their respective patrons, starting on p126.
Thorsbjorn 12-12-07, 01:19 AM	Phaedrus is referring to the "Champion of [Celestial Paragon]"s, which can be found after their respective patrons, starting on p126. Oh! Thank you Dead Weasel! Here I was hopelessly looking through pages of creatures in the next chapter, seeing no references to the planar ally spells at all! I see on page 130 a champion of Eranthaol, named Olythartu, whom you can call with a greater planar ally spell. She has 18 hit dice: 15 levels of barbarian and 3 of sword of righteousness. As an aasimar she actually has a 19 CR. That's sort of interesting, as it opens up possibilities like summoning a half-celestial with 18 hit dice and a CR of 21. I see in fact that their next champion is a half-celestial dwarf with 12 hit dice and a CR of 15. You could get even more abusive with something using the paragon template, which adds +15 to the CR. My players, fortunately, aren't abusive of the rules, so that particular opening shouldn't be a problem with them. I see them more likely to call a planetar. The champions in the Book of Exalted Deed suggest that the authors at least regard the planar ally spells as being capable of calling advanced creatures. I like the idea of being able to call a planetar with 18 total hit dice rather than wasting 4 hit dice just because there's no good outsider with exactly 18 hit dice. Thank you very much! :tiphat:
betrayor 12-12-07, 03:01 PM	Sorry for hijacking the thread.My question is too similar too just create a new one. So we have concluded that you can call advanched creatures with the planar ally spells(and i guess with the planar binding also) but can you do the same with Gate?For example could a 20 level wizard call a 40 hd Solar? Reading the spell i 'd say no since it says that a unique creature can not be controlled and i think that any advanched creature is considered a unique creature(actually i am not sure about this but it seems logical). For another matter could the same wizard call an infernal(from ELH)? I can't see anything in the rules that disallow it but i can't think that a sane dm would allow this.
PhaedrusXY 12-12-07, 04:57 PM	"Unique" means exactly that. There is only one of them, anywhere. This applies to things like the Tarrasque, and Bob the 12-headed demigod of spiteful reasoning. An advanced solar isn't anymore unique than an commoner with 5 levels, in general. Of course, the DM might say otherwise ("there is only one 40 HD solar in my game, Balphanon, the Justicator"), but that's campaign specific. And yes, this opens the door to all kinds of insane abuse, like calling a 40 HD paragon pseudonatural solar... The DM will need to adjudicate/houserule things, if players abuse it. (Yes, there is a paragon pseudonatural 40 HD solar in my game, and he does step through the Gate. He is however a unique creature, and so is uncontrolled. He eats your soul.) :88E:
nasuma 12-12-07, 06:25 PM	You have to be really careful with Planar Ally in my opinon. The DM has to be very restrective in that regard; he can't let you summon whatever you want. My DM let an 11th level cleric call a Ghaele (CR 13 and it casts spells as a 14th level cleric)! So, our 11th level party suddenly had a CR 13 creature help us fight everything. I know the spell costs a lot of money, but the Ghaele was way more powerful than us and completly destroyed everything. We ended up just sending the Ghaele into the encounters and watching it fight for us. The cleric made back the 250 XP instantly, and the gold we had to give it from the monsters we killed.
Thorsbjorn 12-12-07, 06:31 PM	"Unique" means exactly that. There is only one of them, anywhere. This applies to things like the Tarrasque, and Bob the 12-headed demigod of spiteful reasoning. An advanced solar isn't anymore unique than an commoner with 5 levels, in general. Of course, the DM might say otherwise ("there is only one 40 HD solar in my game, Balphanon, the Justicator"), but that's campaign specific. And yes, this opens the door to all kinds of insane abuse, like calling a 40 HD paragon pseudonatural solar... The DM will need to adjudicate/houserule things, if players abuse it. (Yes, there is a paragon pseudonatural 40 HD solar in my game, and he does step through the Gate. He is however a unique creature, and so is uncontrolled. He eats your soul.) :88E: Well said! If you decided to summon a 40 hit-die solar, and your DM had only one, he might allow it to come but then you'd find that it wasn't under your control. Of course if you're on the side of goodness and justice it might help you anyway. If not, however, then it would eat you and your evil comrades for breakfast and then go home to plan the next assault on Baator. :D If, on the other hand, your DM has lots (or even two) 40 hit-die solars, you might get one with no muss or fuss. I'm not sure, however, if I'd allow an evil PC to compel it to do anything evil. That seems wrong to me. If you were, for instance, trying to fight demons or devils, or some other evil opponent, I could see compelling it to fight for you. But I'm not sure I would allow you to compel it to fight against other good creatures. There's absolutely nothing in the spell that supports my inclination--it's all a matter of flavor. I'm not even saying absolutely I wouldn't allow it, but I'm not sure I like the feel of it. In my campaign the players all play good PCs and the ones who can summon summon either good creatures (and typically of the same good alignment as their own--the NG wizard, for instance, typically summons the NG leonal guardinal) or just neutral elementals. The evil NPCs I've had summon things also summoned creatures of their own alignment: the CE epic pirates with summoning scrolls summoned CE howlers and bebiliths. I've never really given any thought to evil characters summoning (or calling) good creatures or good characters summoning evil creatures. Does that happen frequently in your campaigns? You have to be really careful with Planar Ally in my opinon. The DM has to be very restrective in that regard; he can't let you summon whatever you want. My DM let an 11th level cleric call a Ghaele (CR 13 and it casts spells as a 14th level cleric)! So, our 11th level party suddenly had a CR 13 creature help us fight everything. I know the spell costs a lot of money, but the Ghaele was way more powerful than us and completly destroyed everything. We ended up just sending the Ghaele into the encounters and watching it fight for us. The cleric made back the 250 XP instantly, and the gold we had to give it from the monsters we killed. That's a good lesson. What do others think about it?
PhaedrusXY 12-12-07, 06:59 PM	Edit: Nevermind. I need to learn to read. :P
Thorsbjorn 12-12-07, 07:10 PM	Edit: Nevermind. I need to learn to read. :P Reading? What's that? ;)
mvincent 12-17-07, 04:54 PM	That's a good lesson. What do others think about it?Another example: I've used lesser planar ally to call a Formian Taskmaster... essentially allowing me unlimited uses of dominate monster (normally a 9th level spell).
PhaedrusXY 12-17-07, 05:32 PM	Another example: I've used lesser planar ally to call a Formian Taskmaster... essentially allowing me unlimited uses of dominate monster (normally a 9th level spell).You can call Nightmares for unlimited Astral Projection and Etherealness, and Efreet's for Wishes... The Planar Ally/Binding line of spells is potentially some of the most overpowered stuff in the game, even with the costs.
Dead_Weasel 12-17-07, 05:37 PM	I've never really given any thought to evil characters summoning (or calling) good creatures or good characters summoning evil creatures. Does that happen frequently in your campaigns?The Malconvoker is a non-evil PrC specializes in summoning fiends and tricking them into helping you; Fiendbinder is a non-good PrC that forces a fiend to serve. An arcane caster can summon creatures of any alignment, but would be well-advised to keep them on a short leash - giving them very specific instructions. Except for the PrCs I have mentioned, a cleric is limited to summoning creatures whose alignment does not conflict with his own, and therefore his summons should need less attention. However, back to your original question: I think that it should depend on intent. Sometimes the best creature for the job is one whose philosophy is completely opposite your own. Accomplishing goals without compromising values deserves credit. However, manipulating and forcing others (regardless of their nature) to do your bidding is hardly a moral way to solve problems. On the other hand, is this mitigated when their nature would make you enemies ordinarily? Given the tendency for the summoning and binding of powerful, hostile creatures to appear in fantasy literature of all shapes and colors, I would say that although summoning "enemy" creatures is a potentially and even a frequently corrupting act, it need not be, so long as it is done infrequently and with the proper precautions. As for evil characters summoning good creatures - most evil characters would get a kick out of it, but would have the same need to control their summon carefully that their good counterparts would have.
Thorsbjorn 12-19-07, 12:49 AM	Since planar ally seems to offer so much potential for abuse, why do you think people use it so infrequently? In 7 years of playing 3rd Ed (3.0 & 3.5) I think I've never seen anyone use a planar ally spell. For the planar ally spells, the called creature had free will, so good creatures aren't likely to help evil characters, and evil creatures might help good creatures but perhaps as you say calling evil creatures tends to corrupt the caller. I was thinking though more about the summon monster spells. the summon monster spells seem to suggest that the summoned creature will act in accord with the summoner's wishes, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with evil characters summoning good creatures do do their bidding.
mvincent 12-19-07, 12:18 PM	Since planar ally seems to offer so much potential for abuse, why do you think people use it so infrequently?Most of the abuses I know of in D&D are used infrequently (otherwise they would likely be called tactics rather than abuses). The more uncomplicated, obvious and prone to frequent use a tactic is, the greater likelhood that the writer's would've already nerfed it (or at least acknowledged it as a good tactic).
Thorsbjorn 12-19-07, 12:25 PM	Most of the abuses I know of in D&D are used infrequently (otherwise they would likely be called tactics rather than abuses). The more uncomplicated, obvious and prone to frequent use a tactic is, the greater likelhood that the writer's would've already nerfed it (or at least acknowledged it as a good tactic). The fact that people don't abuse it more explains why the authors didn't do anything to curb the abuse, but that still doesn't explain why people don't abuse it more.
mvincent 12-19-07, 12:40 PM	The fact that people don't abuse it more explains why the authors didn't do anything to curb the abuse, but that still doesn't explain why people don't abuse it more.Ah. Ok. Possibly because: 1) It's complicated 2) It is not flashy, sexy or immediately gratifying. 3) You have to obtain a name to call a specific creature 4) The spell requires both a significant bribe (players hate giving up loot) and XP (players hate giving up that even more) for a non-permanent result. 5) You have to sift through a lot of pages to find a creature that is decent (most aren't). Honestly, if I hadn't noticed formian taskmaster's special ability, I probably wouldn't have used the spell either.
nasuma 12-19-07, 01:11 PM	Ah. Ok. Possibly because: 1) It's complicated 2) It is not flashy, sexy or immediately gratifying. 3) You have to obtain a name to call a specific creature 4) The spell requires both a significant bribe (players hate giving up loot) and XP (players hate giving up that even more) for a non-permanent result. 5) You have to sift through a lot of pages to find a creature that is decent (most aren't). Honestly, if I hadn't noticed formian taskmaster's special ability, I probably wouldn't have used the spell either. ...and it requires DM APPROVAL! These types of spells are as good as the DM is lenient. If the DM says you can't call anything worth while, the spell is useless. If he lets you summon the most powerful monster possible, it is worth it. Of course, the DM can manipulate any spell, but it is much harder for the DM to, for example, to change Otto's Irresistible dance to have a saving throw than to simply not let you call a Ghaele with Planar Ally.
mvincent 12-19-07, 01:31 PM	it requires DM APPROVAL!Well, theoretically everything is subject to DM approval, but yes, it is easier for the DM to make this harder on you. Still, if you come to the table prepared*, he would effectively have to use the same nerfing hammer he would use for any spell that didn't have this caveat * i.e. have a few ranks in knowledge: planes and a specific name for a Formian Taskmaster (feel free to use "Myrmidonix Noranix"... just have him home before midnight ;))
Thorsbjorn 12-19-07, 01:48 PM	Ah. Ok. Possibly because: 1) It's complicated 2) It is not flashy, sexy or immediately gratifying. 3) You have to obtain a name to call a specific creature 4) The spell requires both a significant bribe (players hate giving up loot) and XP (players hate giving up that even more) for a non-permanent result. 5) You have to sift through a lot of pages to find a creature that is decent (most aren't). Honestly, if I hadn't noticed formian taskmaster's special ability, I probably wouldn't have used the spell either. I don't think the name really deters anyone since you can always just call a planetar insetad of a specific planetar, and even if you have a name you don't necessarily get the named creature. Other than that, however, I think you've hit the bullseye. Sure, as nasuma pointed out in his first post, if you call the right creature you could earn back the gold and experience points easily--but, if you defeat the challenge without calling the creature, you never have to give up the gold or experience in the first place, putting you further ahead. While some people wouldn't mind a ghaele doing their fighting for them, maybe people prefer to hack or blast on their own. Also it might be that the average rules-abuser doesn't like to play good-aligned characters as a good-alignment places restrictions on the character's actions, so that might eliminate the ghaele and planetar as allies. My first thought when I heard about the formian came in the form of wondering whether the character that called it somehow acted to further the formians goals. If not, I would think that it might just refuse to help--or it might even try to dominate the caller and friends and bring them back to the hive as slaves. :schemes: ...and it requires DM APPROVAL! These types of spells are as good as the DM is lenient. If the DM says you can't call anything worth while, the spell is useless. If he lets you summon the most powerful monster possible, it is worth it. Of course, the DM can manipulate any spell, but it is much harder for the DM to, for example, to change Otto's Irresistible dance to have a saving throw than to simply not let you call a Ghaele with Planar Ally. mvincent makes a good point that a DM can weaken any spell, but I agree with nasuma that it's easier to say that a ghaele won't come or won't accept the assignment than to just arbitrarily rule that some common spell works differently than the way that everyone else uses it.
mvincent 12-19-07, 01:54 PM	you can always just call a planetar insetad of a specific planetarWhile that is true for the planar binding spells, it is not true for the planar ally spells. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm): "By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)."
Thorsbjorn 12-19-07, 02:08 PM	While that is true for the planar binding spells, it is not true for the planar ally spells. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm): "By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)." Well you claimed that a need to know the name of a called creature prohibited the potential abuser from abusing the spell (or at least made the spell less desirable), and that's not the case. Your point here is correct but irrelevant to your earlier point that I was addressing. :) Edit: The rule you quote does, however, cut down on the potential for abuse if the DM is paying attention. You might want a creature with endless uses of dominate monster or wish, or a creature that can singlehandedly wipe out the BBEG, but that doesn't mean your deity will send that creature. If the ghaele's too powerful, maybe the deity will send only a bralani (or something between a bralani and a ghaele) instead. :)
mvincent 12-19-07, 02:17 PM	Well you claimed that a need to know the name of a called creature prohibited the potential abuser from abusing the spell (or at least made the spell less desirable), and that's not the case. Your point here is correct but irrelevant to your earlier point that I was addressing. :)Er... you were specifically asking about planar ally when I gave my answer (i.e. you asked "Since planar ally seems to offer so much potential for abuse, why do you think people use it so infrequently?") ... that is also the title of this thread. This caveat for the planar ally spells has indeed made them significantly less desirably... most players view them as random.
Thorsbjorn 12-19-07, 06:13 PM	Er... you were specifically asking about planar ally when I gave my answer (i.e. you asked "Since planar ally seems to offer so much potential for abuse, why do you think people use it so infrequently?") ... that is also the title of this thread. This caveat for the planar ally spells has indeed made them significantly less desirably... most players view them as random. Your point about the need for a name reducing the desirability of the spell was wrong. Your point about getting what your deity gives you reducing the desirability of the spell is right. In fact the very rightness of your right point illustrates the wrongness of your wrong point. :D Your original explanation contained the wrong point, not the right point, although as I said when I responded to it, it contained other right points. Anyway, your wrong point seems to contain the argument that to try to summon a planetar you need to know the name of a specific planetar. The text literally says that to you can request a specific creature if you know the creature's name. That's not logically the same as being able to request a general type of creature only if you know the name of a specific creature of that type. These are logically two different propositions. Being able to request a specific creature if you know the creature's name expands the spell, while the need to know the name of a specific creature of a type in order to request a general type of creature would serve to limit the spell. You've taken an expansion and turned it on its head into a limitation. Just out of curiosity, has anyone else interpreted the expansion of the spell as a limitation on it--that to request a general type of creature you have to know the name of a specific creature of that type?
Toki_Wartooth 12-19-07, 06:34 PM	Anyway, your wrong point seems to contain the argument that to try to summon a planetar you need to know the name of a specific planetar. The text literally says that to you can request a specific creature if you know the creature's name. That's not logically the same as being able to request a general type of creature only if you know the name of a specific creature of that type. He said: "3) You have to obtain a name to call a specific creature"... which appears to be true, given the text he quoted. You said: "I don't think the name really deters anyone since you can always just call a planetar insetad of a specific planetar", which doesn't appear to be explicitly true given the text of the spell. That is to say: strictly as written, if you don't request an individual creature by name, then the selection of creature type will be of your deity's choice. Even if we compromise a label this as just a matter of how you read it, then both are possible interpretations for your DM to make, implying (at a minimum) that you can't 'always' just call a planetar instead of a specific planetar.
Thorsbjorn 12-19-07, 06:40 PM	He said: "3) You have to obtain a name to call a specific creature"... which appears to be true, given the text he quoted. You said: "I don't think the name really deters anyone since you can always just call a planetar instread of a specific planetar", which doesn't appear to be explicitly true given the text of the spell. That is to say: strictly as written, if you don't request an individual creature by name, then the selection of creature type will be of your deity's choice. No, and no. An expansion isn't a limitation. The ability to call a specific creature if you know its name isn't the same as needing to know a specific creature's name to request a creature of a general type. These are logically two different propositions. And since the deity chooses what you get, even if it were true that you could request a general type of creature only if you know the name of a specific creature of that type, needing the name wouldn't limit the desirability of the spell since you still get whatever the deity wants to send.
mvincent 12-19-07, 06:46 PM	No, and no. An expansion isn't a limitation. The ability to call a specific creature if you know its name isn't the same as needing to know a specific creature's name to request a creature of a general type.I see no provision in the spell for requesting a specific type of creature, merely a provision for requesting a specific individual. Otherwise, the spell specifically says that the creature will be of your 'deity’s choice' (indicating a lack of your own choice).
Thorsbjorn 12-19-07, 07:22 PM	I see no provision in the spell for requesting a specific type of creature, merely a provision for requesting a specific individual. Otherwise, the spell specifically says that the creature will be of your 'deity’s choice' (indicating a lack of your own choice). Since the language includes no "only" clause, it implies a broader, positive interpretation rather than a narrow, negative interpretation. Also your "otherwise" clause above doesn't follow the wording of the spell. On the contrary, the spell specifically leaves the choice up to the deity even if you request a specific creature. Frankly it seems silly to me that you could make a specific request with the spell but not a general request. I think the authors assumed that the character would request a type of creature and went beyond that to allow requesting a specific creature. Since it's the deity's choice whether you request a specific creature or not, it seems silly to assume it means that the deity will only grant you the type of creature you want if you know the name of one. "Hmm," thinks Thor. "Hrothgar wants a planetar, but since he doesn't know the name of any of my planetars, I will send him an earth elemental instead." It simply makes no sense. It makes a lot more sense that Thor thinks, "A planetar? Bah! They don't need a planetar! It's clobbering time. I'll send them an 18th-level einherjar instead!" It doesn't really matter whether Hrothgar requests a planetar or Thórspláneta the planetar. :D
mvincent 12-19-07, 07:50 PM	Since the language includes no "only" clause, it implies a broader, positive interpretation rather than a narrow, negative interpretation. Well, I'm certainly open to other's interpretations. To clarify: what exactly do you believe is meant by "of the deity’s choice".
wizard of Newfoundland 12-19-07, 08:14 PM	I think he is saying that although you may request a certain type of outsider/elemental you may not get it depending on the deities will, but this does not prevent you from asking. The name part is just an additional part added on in case you had a specific creature in mind (and know its name), in which case the you automatically succeed in calling him/her/it. Hope that helps
Thorsbjorn 12-19-07, 08:18 PM	I think he is saying that although you may request a certain type of outsider/elemental you may not get it depending on the deities will, but this does not prevent you from asking. The name part is just an additional part added on in case you had a specific creature in mind (and know its name), in which case the you automatically succeed in calling him/her/it. Hope that helps Ah, but the text specifically says that you don't automatically get what you ask for even if you ask for a specific creature! :) Well, I'm certainly open to other's interpretations. Fair enough! :) To clarify: what exactly do you believe is meant by "of the deity’s choice". Hmm. Well I guess I could flail around on that one with a general answer, but since you're asking the question, it sounds like you have something specific in mind. Maybe it would work better if you said how you interpret it, or at least ask me specifically about what you suspect might be different in how I'm interpreting it based on what I've said previously. :)