Can ray spells do double damage on a Critical hit ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can ray spells do double damage on a Critical hit ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
heinrich
08-30-05, 04:20 AM Can ray spells do double damage on a Critical hit ?

Thanks,
Heinrich
Rake
08-30-05, 04:22 AM They can and they do.

In addition, a ray can be used in conjunction with Sneak Attacks, Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. feats, and effects like morale bonuses and true strike. A ray is, by definition, a weapon.
Thelon Fairblade
08-30-05, 07:29 AM More generically, anything that has an attack roll can crit. The default is 20/x2.
Karelzarath
08-30-05, 04:54 PM And critting on a Polar Ray can really ruin someone's day.
Egres
08-30-05, 04:56 PM And critting on a Polar Ray can really ruin someone's day.
Try Disintegrate.
Zaith
08-30-05, 06:07 PM Yes, all applicable spells and spell-like abilities have a critical of 20/x2, but if you're interested and can afford it, try taking the Improved Critical feat (if you meet the prerequisites of course) with, for example a ray effect ;)
smrtgmp
08-30-05, 06:15 PM In addition, a ray can be used in conjunction with Sneak Attacks, Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. feats, and effects like morale bonuses and true strike. A ray is, by definition, a weapon.While you can take weapon spec ray, its next to worthless. +2 damage is great for a fighter who attacks multiple times per round all day long, but its fairly meaningless when tacked onto an xd6 spell.
Zherog
08-30-05, 09:23 PM Try Disintegrate.

Can you crit on a distintegrate? It doesn't actually do damage on a failed save - it just turns you into a pile of ash.
Keenath
08-30-05, 09:27 PM Can you crit on a distintegrate? It doesn't actually do damage on a failed save - it just turns you into a pile of ash.
Read the 3.5 version. It deals 2d6 per caster level on a failed save, 5d6 on a failed save, and if you die from it you turn into dust.

Oh, sorry -- not 'if you die', but rather 'if you're reduced to 0 or fewer HP'. Depending on your type, it might be the same thing, but still, for accuracy.
AlphaMagic
08-30-05, 09:38 PM Can someone come up with a list of all the Ray Spells there are??
smrtgmp
08-30-05, 10:26 PM no.

Well, I'm sure somone could, but I'm too lazy.

Try searching IMarvin's spell database (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/FindSpell.asp).

Go down to the header "Has Any of these Effect Types" and select Effect. Then type in "ray" into the "Effect keyword" window. That should give you everything you're looking for.
Dragonsblood
08-31-05, 12:55 AM Can you crit on rays that don't do physical damage? Like Ray of Enfeeblement.
ShiverTheBard
08-31-05, 01:02 AM Yes. Simply double the effect if you crit with it. Because that is really all a crit with a damage spells does, it doubles the effect a.k.a. damage.
smrtgmp
08-31-05, 01:14 AM Yes, but RoE doesnt do any damage., it inflicts a penalty. IIRC you cant crit in such situations.
Odin_666
08-31-05, 03:02 AM Right. If you crit with a ray only the damage gets doubled (and negative levels form enervation and energy drain, would also double). Rays that don't do any damage (like Ray of Enfeeblemend), can't have the damage doubled.
Rake
08-31-05, 03:36 AM Ability damage/drain does not multiply on a crit.
While we're pointing out tricks, clarifications, and exceptions regarding this topic, note that Negative Energy Ray does not heal undead by x2 damage on a crit.
Odin_666
08-31-05, 03:43 AM if you check Complete Arcane or Tome and Blood for criticals on ray, you see as example a doubled enervation, so in both 3.0 and 3.5 negative levels are doubled on a crit.
Vaelan
08-31-05, 04:20 AM if you check Complete Arcane or Tome and Blood for criticals on ray, you see as example a doubled enervation, so in both 3.0 and 3.5 negative levels are doubled on a crit.
Enervation is not used as an example in Complete Arcane, and Tome of Blood isn't 3.5

Complete Arcane specifically states that only damage is doubled. Strength damage? Doubled. Fire damage? Doubled. Strength penalty? Not doubled. Level drain? Not doubled.
Egres
08-31-05, 04:33 AM Enervation is not used as an example in Complete Arcane
Uhm?

You might want to take a careful look at page 86.
Odin_666
08-31-05, 04:52 AM as egres said,
and the T&B was only meant as example, that the rule that negative levels get doubled on crit is nothing new from 3.5 but was also so in 3.0
smrtgmp
08-31-05, 05:34 AM While we're pointing out tricks, clarifications, and exceptions regarding this topic, note that Negative Energy Ray does not heal undead by x2 damage on a crit.Thats probably because you cant crit an undead. ;)
Rake
08-31-05, 11:07 AM Well ~DUH~. I know that.

I was testing you guys. Um. smtgmp wins.

*suspicious sideways glancing*
Rake
08-31-05, 11:13 AM Can someone come up with a list of all the Ray Spells there are??

Follow smrtgmp's instructions but type "ranged touch" in the full description keyword section, too. That'll give you all of 'em, and all spells related to 'em.
Puca
08-31-05, 11:23 AM First of all, I think the feats like weapon focus and improved crit can apply to the broader Ranged Touch Attacks rather than the more narrow Ray.

If youre going to take those, invest in feats like Reach Spell (CD) which will allow you to cast spells with a range of touch as ranged touch attacks. Ocular Spell from LoMad also converts spells into rays. Combine them with things like Split Ray and Chain Spell from CA, and youll be making so many to hit rolls that +1 to hit or +2 damage and a better chance of critting might turn out to pay off.
Egres
08-31-05, 11:31 AM Can you crit on a distintegrate? It doesn't actually do damage on a failed save - it just turns you into a pile of ash.
I took the example directly from the CA.:)
Rake
08-31-05, 11:44 AM First of all, I think the feats like weapon focus and improved crit can apply to the broader Ranged Touch Attacks rather than the more narrow Ray.

I second that, that's my ruling, too.
was_fired
08-31-05, 11:45 AM Take a look at ability score damage again. As per the 3.5 MM, "If an attack that causes ability damage scores a critical hit, it deals twice the indicated amount of damage" (MM 305). Then look at ability drain on the same page, "If an attack that causes ability drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the indicated amount" (MM 305). Likewise if we look at energy drain we find "If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount" (MM 308). So yes spells which cause ability damage, drain, or energy drain multiply on critical hits provided they involve attack rolls (otherwise you can't score a critical ever). Penalties are never listed as doubling on a critical so ray of enfeeblment does not benifit from a critical hit.
Rake
08-31-05, 11:55 AM Take a look at ability score damage again. As per the 3.5 MM, "If an attack that causes ability damage scores a critical hit, it deals twice the indicated amount of damage" (MM 305). Then look at ability drain on the same page, "If an attack that causes ability drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the indicated amount" (MM 305). Likewise if we look at energy drain we find "If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount" (MM 308). So yes spells which cause ability damage, drain, or energy drain multiply on critical hits provided they involve attack rolls (otherwise you can't score a critical ever). Penalties are never listed as doubling on a critical so ray of enfeeblment does not benifit from a critical hit.

Confirmed, and I concede the point.

Question: is this a change since 3.0 or did I learn it wrong to begin with?
Egres
08-31-05, 11:59 AM Question: is this a change since 3.0 or did I learn it wrong to begin with?
The latter.:)
Rake
08-31-05, 12:02 PM Damn novice DM's, 'learnen me the rules wrong. Why can't everyone be an unquestionable, infalliable expert like me? :rolleyes:
Odin_666
08-31-05, 12:54 PM Confirmed, and I concede the point.

Question: is this a change since 3.0 or did I learn it wrong to begin with?

as I allready said in post 20,
if you check T&B you will see the same examples there as in CA...
Vaelan
08-31-05, 04:25 PM Uhm?

You might want to take a careful look at page 86.
Sure, if you want to get all technical about things that I clearly missed despite reading that page a good five times! :(
Odin_666
09-01-05, 03:39 AM Sure, if you want to get all technical about things that I clearly missed despite reading that page a good five times! :(

You only have to read the fourth sentence of the page.
Dhavaer
09-01-05, 03:49 AM Out of curiousity, do sneak attacks with energy drain rays still deal negative energy damage?
smrtgmp
09-01-05, 03:51 AM yes
Odin_666
09-01-05, 03:57 AM Out of curiousity, do sneak attacks with energy drain rays still deal negative energy damage?

yes, also written on page 86 in CA :) (if you need a reference)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
heinrich 08-30-05, 04:20 AM	Can ray spells do double damage on a Critical hit ? Thanks, Heinrich
Rake 08-30-05, 04:22 AM	They can and they do. In addition, a ray can be used in conjunction with Sneak Attacks, Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. feats, and effects like morale bonuses and true strike. A ray is, by definition, a weapon.
Thelon Fairblade 08-30-05, 07:29 AM	More generically, anything that has an attack roll can crit. The default is 20/x2.
Karelzarath 08-30-05, 04:54 PM	And critting on a Polar Ray can really ruin someone's day.
Egres 08-30-05, 04:56 PM	And critting on a Polar Ray can really ruin someone's day. Try Disintegrate.
Zaith 08-30-05, 06:07 PM	Yes, all applicable spells and spell-like abilities have a critical of 20/x2, but if you're interested and can afford it, try taking the Improved Critical feat (if you meet the prerequisites of course) with, for example a ray effect ;)
smrtgmp 08-30-05, 06:15 PM	In addition, a ray can be used in conjunction with Sneak Attacks, Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. feats, and effects like morale bonuses and true strike. A ray is, by definition, a weapon.While you can take weapon spec ray, its next to worthless. +2 damage is great for a fighter who attacks multiple times per round all day long, but its fairly meaningless when tacked onto an xd6 spell.
Zherog 08-30-05, 09:23 PM	Try Disintegrate. Can you crit on a distintegrate? It doesn't actually do damage on a failed save - it just turns you into a pile of ash.
Keenath 08-30-05, 09:27 PM	Can you crit on a distintegrate? It doesn't actually do damage on a failed save - it just turns you into a pile of ash. Read the 3.5 version. It deals 2d6 per caster level on a failed save, 5d6 on a failed save, and if you die from it you turn into dust. Oh, sorry -- not 'if you die', but rather 'if you're reduced to 0 or fewer HP'. Depending on your type, it might be the same thing, but still, for accuracy.
AlphaMagic 08-30-05, 09:38 PM	Can someone come up with a list of all the Ray Spells there are??
smrtgmp 08-30-05, 10:26 PM	no. Well, I'm sure somone could, but I'm too lazy. Try searching IMarvin's spell database (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/FindSpell.asp). Go down to the header "Has Any of these Effect Types" and select Effect. Then type in "ray" into the "Effect keyword" window. That should give you everything you're looking for.
Dragonsblood 08-31-05, 12:55 AM	Can you crit on rays that don't do physical damage? Like Ray of Enfeeblement.
ShiverTheBard 08-31-05, 01:02 AM	Yes. Simply double the effect if you crit with it. Because that is really all a crit with a damage spells does, it doubles the effect a.k.a. damage.
smrtgmp 08-31-05, 01:14 AM	Yes, but RoE doesnt do any damage., it inflicts a penalty. IIRC you cant crit in such situations.
Odin_666 08-31-05, 03:02 AM	Right. If you crit with a ray only the damage gets doubled (and negative levels form enervation and energy drain, would also double). Rays that don't do any damage (like Ray of Enfeeblemend), can't have the damage doubled.
Rake 08-31-05, 03:36 AM	Ability damage/drain does not multiply on a crit. While we're pointing out tricks, clarifications, and exceptions regarding this topic, note that Negative Energy Ray does not heal undead by x2 damage on a crit.
Odin_666 08-31-05, 03:43 AM	if you check Complete Arcane or Tome and Blood for criticals on ray, you see as example a doubled enervation, so in both 3.0 and 3.5 negative levels are doubled on a crit.
Vaelan 08-31-05, 04:20 AM	if you check Complete Arcane or Tome and Blood for criticals on ray, you see as example a doubled enervation, so in both 3.0 and 3.5 negative levels are doubled on a crit. Enervation is not used as an example in Complete Arcane, and Tome of Blood isn't 3.5 Complete Arcane specifically states that only damage is doubled. Strength damage? Doubled. Fire damage? Doubled. Strength penalty? Not doubled. Level drain? Not doubled.
Egres 08-31-05, 04:33 AM	Enervation is not used as an example in Complete Arcane Uhm? You might want to take a careful look at page 86.
Odin_666 08-31-05, 04:52 AM	as egres said, and the T&B was only meant as example, that the rule that negative levels get doubled on crit is nothing new from 3.5 but was also so in 3.0
smrtgmp 08-31-05, 05:34 AM	While we're pointing out tricks, clarifications, and exceptions regarding this topic, note that Negative Energy Ray does not heal undead by x2 damage on a crit.Thats probably because you cant crit an undead. ;)
Rake 08-31-05, 11:07 AM	Well ~DUH~. I know that. I was testing you guys. Um. smtgmp wins. suspicious sideways glancing
Rake 08-31-05, 11:13 AM	Can someone come up with a list of all the Ray Spells there are?? Follow smrtgmp's instructions but type "ranged touch" in the full description keyword section, too. That'll give you all of 'em, and all spells related to 'em.
Puca 08-31-05, 11:23 AM	First of all, I think the feats like weapon focus and improved crit can apply to the broader Ranged Touch Attacks rather than the more narrow Ray. If youre going to take those, invest in feats like Reach Spell (CD) which will allow you to cast spells with a range of touch as ranged touch attacks. Ocular Spell from LoMad also converts spells into rays. Combine them with things like Split Ray and Chain Spell from CA, and youll be making so many to hit rolls that +1 to hit or +2 damage and a better chance of critting might turn out to pay off.
Egres 08-31-05, 11:31 AM	Can you crit on a distintegrate? It doesn't actually do damage on a failed save - it just turns you into a pile of ash. I took the example directly from the CA.:)
Rake 08-31-05, 11:44 AM	First of all, I think the feats like weapon focus and improved crit can apply to the broader Ranged Touch Attacks rather than the more narrow Ray. I second that, that's my ruling, too.
was_fired 08-31-05, 11:45 AM	Take a look at ability score damage again. As per the 3.5 MM, "If an attack that causes ability damage scores a critical hit, it deals twice the indicated amount of damage" (MM 305). Then look at ability drain on the same page, "If an attack that causes ability drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the indicated amount" (MM 305). Likewise if we look at energy drain we find "If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount" (MM 308). So yes spells which cause ability damage, drain, or energy drain multiply on critical hits provided they involve attack rolls (otherwise you can't score a critical ever). Penalties are never listed as doubling on a critical so ray of enfeeblment does not benifit from a critical hit.
Rake 08-31-05, 11:55 AM	Take a look at ability score damage again. As per the 3.5 MM, "If an attack that causes ability damage scores a critical hit, it deals twice the indicated amount of damage" (MM 305). Then look at ability drain on the same page, "If an attack that causes ability drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the indicated amount" (MM 305). Likewise if we look at energy drain we find "If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount" (MM 308). So yes spells which cause ability damage, drain, or energy drain multiply on critical hits provided they involve attack rolls (otherwise you can't score a critical ever). Penalties are never listed as doubling on a critical so ray of enfeeblment does not benifit from a critical hit. Confirmed, and I concede the point. Question: is this a change since 3.0 or did I learn it wrong to begin with?
Egres 08-31-05, 11:59 AM	Question: is this a change since 3.0 or did I learn it wrong to begin with? The latter.:)
Rake 08-31-05, 12:02 PM	Damn novice DM's, 'learnen me the rules wrong. Why can't everyone be an unquestionable, infalliable expert like me? :rolleyes:
Odin_666 08-31-05, 12:54 PM	Confirmed, and I concede the point. Question: is this a change since 3.0 or did I learn it wrong to begin with? as I allready said in post 20, if you check T&B you will see the same examples there as in CA...
Vaelan 08-31-05, 04:25 PM	Uhm? You might want to take a careful look at page 86. Sure, if you want to get all technical about things that I clearly missed despite reading that page a good five times! :(
Odin_666 09-01-05, 03:39 AM	Sure, if you want to get all technical about things that I clearly missed despite reading that page a good five times! :( You only have to read the fourth sentence of the page.
Dhavaer 09-01-05, 03:49 AM	Out of curiousity, do sneak attacks with energy drain rays still deal negative energy damage?
smrtgmp 09-01-05, 03:51 AM	yes
Odin_666 09-01-05, 03:57 AM	Out of curiousity, do sneak attacks with energy drain rays still deal negative energy damage? yes, also written on page 86 in CA :) (if you need a reference)