can rock to mud work on a "wall of stone" spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

can rock to mud work on a "wall of stone" spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Galnandros
11-12-04, 11:14 PM My group was considering building/repairing a keep with many wall of stone spells/greater stone shapes. A big concern with that is whether or not it is possible to cast rock to mud on a wall of stone. rock to mud works on "natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort" however, wall of stone doesnt specify whether it creates worked stone or not.... anyone have an opinion on this? thanks in advance
RaspK FOG
11-12-04, 11:54 PM The stone Wall of Stone conjures is virtually the same as the one on the surrounding area, but that does not mean it is natural by any means other than composition: technically speaking it's synthetic.
PhaedrusXY
11-13-04, 12:09 AM The stone created by a Wall of Stone is not magical. I guess you might consider it "worked", but it would definitely be up to individual DM interpretation. If you want to be safe, go carve some things into it after you cast the spell. That way, it is definitely "worked". :P
Bloodtide_the_Red
11-13-04, 12:26 AM I'd say the stone created by Wall of Stone is about as pure as stone can get. So Rock to Mud will work on it just fine.

BT
PhaedrusXY
11-13-04, 12:34 AM I'd say the stone created by Wall of Stone is about as pure as stone can get. So Rock to Mud will work on it just fine.

BTIt has nothing to do with it being "pure". Rock to Mud doesn't work on "worked" stone. "Worked" isn't really defined in hard game rule terms. Here is the pertinent definition of "work" for our purposes from dictionary.com: To bring to a specified condition by gradual or repeated effortSo something that is "worked" has been "brought to a specificed condition by gradual or repeated effort". Basically, a wall made of stone blocks is an example of worked stone, but a boulder isn't. Whether stone created by Wall of Stone is considered worked is debateable. If you do something to it to change it after it's creation, such as carve pictures into it, it would definitely count as "worked", though.
RaspK FOG
11-13-04, 01:57 AM If we take into account the fact that the spell effectively creates the stone (since it is a Conjuration (Creation) spell), I think it is only logical to assume that the stone is, while not considered magical, synthetic and not natural.
will07
11-13-04, 11:45 AM stone from the wall of stone spell is considered "worked stone."
rock to mud does not work on worked stone.
so the anser is no.
Seeker95
11-13-04, 12:26 PM I am not disagreeing with the conclusion.
Only questioning the premise:
Where do we see that wall of stone creates "worked stone"?

I understand that it is "created" but it requires no "work" whatsoever.
Personally, I would allow it. Magic counters magic.
Not saying I am right. Just right for my campaign.
TyraaloftheFist
11-14-04, 03:14 PM It might, I'm not sure. However, you could just encase the stone wall in a wall of force, thus negating that possibility unless the use a disintegrate spell. You could always add a Prismatic Wall, or Iron wall, but I'm not really sure whether the turn rock to mud would work. Maybe run along the wall while smacking it with a little hammer?
BaelinWhale
12-09-04, 11:25 PM As I understand it, the definition of 'Worked' stone is any stone that has been shaped in anyway.

That being the case, Transmute Rock to Mud definitely wouldn't work on the material.
Obscure One
12-10-04, 12:27 AM I'd just keep things simple and go based directly off what is written in black and white. Wall of Stone doesn't specify if the rock is worked, so it isn't. However, being that the rock is conjured as opposed to rock that is natural, the Rock to Mud spell wouldn't have an affect on it, worked or not. It's still rock like any other rock, but the nature of the rock is of conjuration not of nature, A.K.A. formed by the shifting of planetary/planar geological activity. So to keep it simple I'd say no, but if I was the DM I'd say go for it anyways and justify it by labeling magic (arcane or otherwise) as something natural. Though it might serve to bite me in the butt later on in some other god forsaken loop hole the players may come up with (probably why I tend to keep to the simple black and white) :P .
Kursk
12-10-04, 11:03 AM In this case the rock has been "worked" by magic. nuff said.
dantedarkstar
12-10-04, 11:24 AM IMHO, even if Wall of Stone could be affected (I'm not discussing that), then after you use Stone Shape, I would certainly consider it worked stone.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Galnandros 11-12-04, 11:14 PM	My group was considering building/repairing a keep with many wall of stone spells/greater stone shapes. A big concern with that is whether or not it is possible to cast rock to mud on a wall of stone. rock to mud works on "natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort" however, wall of stone doesnt specify whether it creates worked stone or not.... anyone have an opinion on this? thanks in advance
RaspK FOG 11-12-04, 11:54 PM	The stone Wall of Stone conjures is virtually the same as the one on the surrounding area, but that does not mean it is natural by any means other than composition: technically speaking it's synthetic.
PhaedrusXY 11-13-04, 12:09 AM	The stone created by a Wall of Stone is not magical. I guess you might consider it "worked", but it would definitely be up to individual DM interpretation. If you want to be safe, go carve some things into it after you cast the spell. That way, it is definitely "worked". :P
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-13-04, 12:26 AM	I'd say the stone created by Wall of Stone is about as pure as stone can get. So Rock to Mud will work on it just fine. BT
PhaedrusXY 11-13-04, 12:34 AM	I'd say the stone created by Wall of Stone is about as pure as stone can get. So Rock to Mud will work on it just fine. BTIt has nothing to do with it being "pure". Rock to Mud doesn't work on "worked" stone. "Worked" isn't really defined in hard game rule terms. Here is the pertinent definition of "work" for our purposes from dictionary.com: To bring to a specified condition by gradual or repeated effortSo something that is "worked" has been "brought to a specificed condition by gradual or repeated effort". Basically, a wall made of stone blocks is an example of worked stone, but a boulder isn't. Whether stone created by Wall of Stone is considered worked is debateable. If you do something to it to change it after it's creation, such as carve pictures into it, it would definitely count as "worked", though.
RaspK FOG 11-13-04, 01:57 AM	If we take into account the fact that the spell effectively creates the stone (since it is a Conjuration (Creation) spell), I think it is only logical to assume that the stone is, while not considered magical, synthetic and not natural.
will07 11-13-04, 11:45 AM	stone from the wall of stone spell is considered "worked stone." rock to mud does not work on worked stone. so the anser is no.
Seeker95 11-13-04, 12:26 PM	I am not disagreeing with the conclusion. Only questioning the premise: Where do we see that wall of stone creates "worked stone"? I understand that it is "created" but it requires no "work" whatsoever. Personally, I would allow it. Magic counters magic. Not saying I am right. Just right for my campaign.
TyraaloftheFist 11-14-04, 03:14 PM	It might, I'm not sure. However, you could just encase the stone wall in a wall of force, thus negating that possibility unless the use a disintegrate spell. You could always add a Prismatic Wall, or Iron wall, but I'm not really sure whether the turn rock to mud would work. Maybe run along the wall while smacking it with a little hammer?
BaelinWhale 12-09-04, 11:25 PM	As I understand it, the definition of 'Worked' stone is any stone that has been shaped in anyway. That being the case, Transmute Rock to Mud definitely wouldn't work on the material.
Obscure One 12-10-04, 12:27 AM	I'd just keep things simple and go based directly off what is written in black and white. Wall of Stone doesn't specify if the rock is worked, so it isn't. However, being that the rock is conjured as opposed to rock that is natural, the Rock to Mud spell wouldn't have an affect on it, worked or not. It's still rock like any other rock, but the nature of the rock is of conjuration not of nature, A.K.A. formed by the shifting of planetary/planar geological activity. So to keep it simple I'd say no, but if I was the DM I'd say go for it anyways and justify it by labeling magic (arcane or otherwise) as something natural. Though it might serve to bite me in the butt later on in some other god forsaken loop hole the players may come up with (probably why I tend to keep to the simple black and white) :P .
Kursk 12-10-04, 11:03 AM	In this case the rock has been "worked" by magic. nuff said.
dantedarkstar 12-10-04, 11:24 AM	IMHO, even if Wall of Stone could be affected (I'm not discussing that), then after you use Stone Shape, I would certainly consider it worked stone.