Can Silent Image do this??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Silent Image do this??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bolobaby
11-20-03, 02:33 PM OK... my party is in DIRE straights right now. (Basically, we have a killer DM who always puts us in encounters that are 4 or 5 levels above us. This current encounter is no exception.)

Silent Image *can* be used to create an image that is opaque - that is, a wall in front of us or whatever. So....

I'm wondering if I can do this:

Yell to my party members "Get around me so I can cast teleport and get us out of here!"

Wait until everyone is around me then cast Silent Image to make it appear as if we teleport away and only empty space remains. Since none of our enemies have Spellcraft, they won't know that I really only cast an illusion.

Would this work? In essence, I'd be creating an invisibility effect for our party that is subject to a will save disbelieve.

Thoughts?
ikkonoishi
11-20-03, 02:34 PM No.
bolobaby
11-20-03, 02:45 PM Why? If I could hide within an illusionary barrel made by silent image, why can we hide within illusionary empty space made by silent image?

You can't just say "no" without any reason. That makes it easy to dismiss.
Primus, the One and Prime
11-20-03, 02:48 PM You cannot make something invisible with "Silent Image". Empty space cannot be "made". In any case, you're talking about duplicating a Mass Invisibility spell. Do you think that should work? Do you think a low level spell should be able to make a group of people invisible? What about a squad of Rogues who've cost Silent Image? Just standing there, and when you come close they sneak attack to high hell.
bolobaby
11-20-03, 02:53 PM Maybe we can somehow get everyone in a room alone for just one round - bar the door temporarily...

Then I can cast an illusionary wall in front of us.
bolobaby
11-20-03, 02:55 PM Or a huge puff of illusionary smoke *and* an illusionary wall that we then step behind.... hmmm.
Primus, the One and Prime
11-20-03, 02:57 PM Alright, those would work better.

Its just you are told specifically that you cannot change what someone looks like. Making them invisible is a change in their appearance.
The Hanged Man
11-20-03, 03:00 PM Originally posted by bolobaby
Wait until everyone is around me then cast Silent Image to make it appear as if we teleport away and only empty space remains. Since none of our enemies have Spellcraft, they won't know that I really only cast an illusion.

What exactly is your illusion? Silent image can make an object, a creature, or a force. It sounds like you want to make an illusion of nothing, i.e., blank space. I don't think you can do that. You're not making anything, and it doesnt change it you characterize it as making "ground with blank space above it" or something. You could make an illusion of ground, but not an empty space above the ground.

Put another way, this is making an illusion of air, except no one can see through the air. That's just invisibility.

What you could do is run into a room, and make the door look like the wall around it. Or run into bushes, and make the bushes look like there's no way in. Or make an illusion of a rock that covers the whole party. That sort of stuff.

But it has to be an illusion of something.
Shadowfax7
11-20-03, 03:22 PM My understanding of the post is that after the party members group around the Wizard, he casts Silent Image of a wall between the party and the opponents, after stating he will teleport the party away, to attempt to fool the opponents into thinking that the party teleported away, thus the opponents would see only the wall behind the party (actually the illusion of the wall). This presumes the opponents know what a teleport spell is ?

I don't see why he cannot do this as long as the area of the wall is within the spell's parameters.

Now, I would definitely allow the opponents a +4 to their disbelief saves if they see the wall pop up and might require a Bluff check on behalf of the Wizard against a group Sense Motive check by the opponents to bluff the +4 to their saves away, but they would still get regualr saves (w/o bonuses however).
Lago AM3P
11-20-03, 04:34 PM Or, since you are a wizard with a high intelligence, you could have a silent image of the surrounding area only that you aren't in it.

It doesn't even have to be real. You could silent image a 2D cylindrical wall that mimics the background.
Lago AM3P
11-20-03, 04:36 PM What Shadowfax said.

Though I don't agree about the bonus as a rule of thumb. The spell doesn't say that.
ehrin
11-20-03, 04:48 PM The illusion would be of a stone wall, and it should work as well as any low level illusion would work.

The villians should get chances to note that the wall may look a bit different, or stand in a place no wall did before (how familiar are they with the area?). They should get a chance to hear the breathing of the party, or armor noises, leather creaking, etc. from behind this 'wall'.
Luminous Crayon
11-20-03, 05:55 PM If you want a rules reference for this question, check chapter 10 of the PHB, on the section detailing different types of illusions. Silent Image is a Figment-- used to create illusory images in empty space. The "silent image of an empty space" trick is the function of a Glamer, which change the appearance of existing objects and creatures (which includes making them appear to vanish: Invisbility is a Glamer.)

Can't do Glamer stuff with a Figment, so you can't use Silent Image to make people disappear. However, there are dozens of neat tricks that Silent Image accomplishes nicely; the aforementioned wall trick among them. Remember that interaction with your Silent Image is what gives your enemies a save against the spell; best to pick an image they won't want to touch. The old Illusonary Firey Sword of Doom that darts menacingly back and forth in front of you is a great way to discourage unwanted melee.
Wizard
11-20-03, 07:25 PM Now, what you could do is make a silent image of a puff of smoke, that wafts away to reveal...nothing.

But why? Because you, in a stroke of genius, have created a silent image of a very realistically-rendered giant canvas painting of an empty space (and the stuff behind it).

Hold your applause.
bolobaby
11-20-03, 08:55 PM Interesting, except I only have one 1st level spell left.
Wizard
11-21-03, 01:27 AM How about an image of a canvas that emits a puff of smoke upon creation?

Or just forget the smoke altogether. Pfft! They're gone!
Xavim
11-21-03, 06:47 AM As was mentioned a figment can't do what you're proposing simply because a figment "can't make something look like something else" PHB 3.0

Thus you can't make a door look like a wall, you can't hide in an illusionary barrel, you can't make yourself invisible. Can't make a fighter's sword look like a snake, can't make a road look like a river, can't make a cloud look like a dragon, can't make a board look like a board with a nail in it.

I'm wondering what CAN you do with the spell? Seems to be nearly useless unless you're making creatures in the middle of the path or somesuch. You can't even make the illusion of something burning! Since that makes a house look like a burning house.
ManTimeForgot
11-21-03, 06:54 AM The point here isn't doing anything to the environment or the party. What can be done is make a silent image (2d canvas) of the environment and place it in front of the party. The party will not be viewed in the image and as such those viewing the image will believe that the party is no longer there because they are "seeing" the horizon or out to whatever range they could see before and not seeing the party that used to be there.

Thank You all and have a nice day.
Signed,
The Man Time Forgot
pjackson
11-21-03, 08:20 AM You could certainly create an flat image in front of the party.
It wouldn't fool a very intelligent foe or one who has very good not-visual senses, but might fool stupid ones.
Some sort of opposed skill check would probably be the best way to handle it, say your bluff/spellcraft/craft(painting) vs the foe's spot.

We have a similar situation in our current game, though at higher levels.

In our game we ended up fleeing from the evil temple badly wounded, and short on spells, I am hoping we can get over a ridge before they can catch up with us, and that we can then hide (some of us are invisible) whilst my character casts Major Image so that just after they come into view they see us grouped together with our horses, our sorceress reading a scroll, and then we disappear (probably with a puff of smoke).
Wizard
11-21-03, 10:55 AM Originally posted by Xavim
As was mentioned a figment can't do what you're proposing simply because a figment "can't make something look like something else" PHB 3.0

True...not directly.

Think of it this way. If you create a rock with silent image, aren't you going to make anything behind it look like a rock? If you make a creature, aren't you also going to make the ground under it look like ground that's being stood on? Finicky and trivial these aspects may be, they're important in pointing out that by changing the enemy's visual environment in any way, you're making something else look different.

Do you honestly think that images created with silent image are transparent? Because that's the only way they could keep from make anything else look differently.
green_yawgmoth
11-21-03, 12:40 PM If I was the DM, I'd just let him do his little wall trick, then have my creatures run up to where they were. It's not like doing that is an uncommon thing; whenever someone disappears, you always see the person left behind run up to the exact spot mr. poof was. If the party is still there, they might be in a spot o' trouble (although they might get an AoO or surprise round or something.)
Wizard
11-21-03, 02:44 PM Yeah. It's a desperation play more than anything else.

Hope your rogue hits with the SA when they come through the canvas...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bolobaby 11-20-03, 02:33 PM	OK... my party is in DIRE straights right now. (Basically, we have a killer DM who always puts us in encounters that are 4 or 5 levels above us. This current encounter is no exception.) Silent Image can be used to create an image that is opaque - that is, a wall in front of us or whatever. So.... I'm wondering if I can do this: Yell to my party members "Get around me so I can cast teleport and get us out of here!" Wait until everyone is around me then cast Silent Image to make it appear as if we teleport away and only empty space remains. Since none of our enemies have Spellcraft, they won't know that I really only cast an illusion. Would this work? In essence, I'd be creating an invisibility effect for our party that is subject to a will save disbelieve. Thoughts?
ikkonoishi 11-20-03, 02:34 PM	No.
bolobaby 11-20-03, 02:45 PM	Why? If I could hide within an illusionary barrel made by silent image, why can we hide within illusionary empty space made by silent image? You can't just say "no" without any reason. That makes it easy to dismiss.
Primus, the One and Prime 11-20-03, 02:48 PM	You cannot make something invisible with "Silent Image". Empty space cannot be "made". In any case, you're talking about duplicating a Mass Invisibility spell. Do you think that should work? Do you think a low level spell should be able to make a group of people invisible? What about a squad of Rogues who've cost Silent Image? Just standing there, and when you come close they sneak attack to high hell.
bolobaby 11-20-03, 02:53 PM	Maybe we can somehow get everyone in a room alone for just one round - bar the door temporarily... Then I can cast an illusionary wall in front of us.
bolobaby 11-20-03, 02:55 PM	Or a huge puff of illusionary smoke and an illusionary wall that we then step behind.... hmmm.
Primus, the One and Prime 11-20-03, 02:57 PM	Alright, those would work better. Its just you are told specifically that you cannot change what someone looks like. Making them invisible is a change in their appearance.
The Hanged Man 11-20-03, 03:00 PM	Originally posted by bolobaby Wait until everyone is around me then cast Silent Image to make it appear as if we teleport away and only empty space remains. Since none of our enemies have Spellcraft, they won't know that I really only cast an illusion. What exactly is your illusion? Silent image can make an object, a creature, or a force. It sounds like you want to make an illusion of nothing, i.e., blank space. I don't think you can do that. You're not making anything, and it doesnt change it you characterize it as making "ground with blank space above it" or something. You could make an illusion of ground, but not an empty space above the ground. Put another way, this is making an illusion of air, except no one can see through the air. That's just invisibility. What you could do is run into a room, and make the door look like the wall around it. Or run into bushes, and make the bushes look like there's no way in. Or make an illusion of a rock that covers the whole party. That sort of stuff. But it has to be an illusion of something.
Shadowfax7 11-20-03, 03:22 PM	My understanding of the post is that after the party members group around the Wizard, he casts Silent Image of a wall between the party and the opponents, after stating he will teleport the party away, to attempt to fool the opponents into thinking that the party teleported away, thus the opponents would see only the wall behind the party (actually the illusion of the wall). This presumes the opponents know what a teleport spell is ? I don't see why he cannot do this as long as the area of the wall is within the spell's parameters. Now, I would definitely allow the opponents a +4 to their disbelief saves if they see the wall pop up and might require a Bluff check on behalf of the Wizard against a group Sense Motive check by the opponents to bluff the +4 to their saves away, but they would still get regualr saves (w/o bonuses however).
Lago AM3P 11-20-03, 04:34 PM	Or, since you are a wizard with a high intelligence, you could have a silent image of the surrounding area only that you aren't in it. It doesn't even have to be real. You could silent image a 2D cylindrical wall that mimics the background.
Lago AM3P 11-20-03, 04:36 PM	What Shadowfax said. Though I don't agree about the bonus as a rule of thumb. The spell doesn't say that.
ehrin 11-20-03, 04:48 PM	The illusion would be of a stone wall, and it should work as well as any low level illusion would work. The villians should get chances to note that the wall may look a bit different, or stand in a place no wall did before (how familiar are they with the area?). They should get a chance to hear the breathing of the party, or armor noises, leather creaking, etc. from behind this 'wall'.
Luminous Crayon 11-20-03, 05:55 PM	If you want a rules reference for this question, check chapter 10 of the PHB, on the section detailing different types of illusions. Silent Image is a Figment-- used to create illusory images in empty space. The "silent image of an empty space" trick is the function of a Glamer, which change the appearance of existing objects and creatures (which includes making them appear to vanish: Invisbility is a Glamer.) Can't do Glamer stuff with a Figment, so you can't use Silent Image to make people disappear. However, there are dozens of neat tricks that Silent Image accomplishes nicely; the aforementioned wall trick among them. Remember that interaction with your Silent Image is what gives your enemies a save against the spell; best to pick an image they won't want to touch. The old Illusonary Firey Sword of Doom that darts menacingly back and forth in front of you is a great way to discourage unwanted melee.
Wizard 11-20-03, 07:25 PM	Now, what you could do is make a silent image of a puff of smoke, that wafts away to reveal...nothing. But why? Because you, in a stroke of genius, have created a silent image of a very realistically-rendered giant canvas painting of an empty space (and the stuff behind it). Hold your applause.
bolobaby 11-20-03, 08:55 PM	Interesting, except I only have one 1st level spell left.
Wizard 11-21-03, 01:27 AM	How about an image of a canvas that emits a puff of smoke upon creation? Or just forget the smoke altogether. Pfft! They're gone!
Xavim 11-21-03, 06:47 AM	As was mentioned a figment can't do what you're proposing simply because a figment "can't make something look like something else" PHB 3.0 Thus you can't make a door look like a wall, you can't hide in an illusionary barrel, you can't make yourself invisible. Can't make a fighter's sword look like a snake, can't make a road look like a river, can't make a cloud look like a dragon, can't make a board look like a board with a nail in it. I'm wondering what CAN you do with the spell? Seems to be nearly useless unless you're making creatures in the middle of the path or somesuch. You can't even make the illusion of something burning! Since that makes a house look like a burning house.
ManTimeForgot 11-21-03, 06:54 AM	The point here isn't doing anything to the environment or the party. What can be done is make a silent image (2d canvas) of the environment and place it in front of the party. The party will not be viewed in the image and as such those viewing the image will believe that the party is no longer there because they are "seeing" the horizon or out to whatever range they could see before and not seeing the party that used to be there. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
pjackson 11-21-03, 08:20 AM	You could certainly create an flat image in front of the party. It wouldn't fool a very intelligent foe or one who has very good not-visual senses, but might fool stupid ones. Some sort of opposed skill check would probably be the best way to handle it, say your bluff/spellcraft/craft(painting) vs the foe's spot. We have a similar situation in our current game, though at higher levels. In our game we ended up fleeing from the evil temple badly wounded, and short on spells, I am hoping we can get over a ridge before they can catch up with us, and that we can then hide (some of us are invisible) whilst my character casts Major Image so that just after they come into view they see us grouped together with our horses, our sorceress reading a scroll, and then we disappear (probably with a puff of smoke).
Wizard 11-21-03, 10:55 AM	Originally posted by Xavim As was mentioned a figment can't do what you're proposing simply because a figment "can't make something look like something else" PHB 3.0 True...not directly. Think of it this way. If you create a rock with silent image, aren't you going to make anything behind it look like a rock? If you make a creature, aren't you also going to make the ground under it look like ground that's being stood on? Finicky and trivial these aspects may be, they're important in pointing out that by changing the enemy's visual environment in any way, you're making something else look different. Do you honestly think that images created with silent image are transparent? Because that's the only way they could keep from make anything else look differently.
green_yawgmoth 11-21-03, 12:40 PM	If I was the DM, I'd just let him do his little wall trick, then have my creatures run up to where they were. It's not like doing that is an uncommon thing; whenever someone disappears, you always see the person left behind run up to the exact spot mr. poof was. If the party is still there, they might be in a spot o' trouble (although they might get an AoO or surprise round or something.)
Wizard 11-21-03, 02:44 PM	Yeah. It's a desperation play more than anything else. Hope your rogue hits with the SA when they come through the canvas...