Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ghost0 06-07-07, 12:06 AM	if a subject that has spiderclimb cast upon himself and is, say, climbing on the ceiling, which is suddenly Greased...would you suppose he would automatically fall? what about a vertical wall?
jaelis 06-07-07, 01:23 AM	It would probably be most fair to give a climbing character the same effects as a walking character: Make a reflex save or fall. Instead of a DC 10 balance check, I'd personally be inclined to house rule a DC 15 climb check to move through the area at half speed. (Climbing seems harder than walking, and a climbing character will most likely have ranks in climb while a walking character probably won't have ranks in balance.)
InkBlot 06-07-07, 01:34 AM	Don't forget that by virtue of granting a climb speed, spiderclimb also grants a +8 bonus to climb checks and the ability to take 10 on any climb check. Even DC 15 is trivial to any character who doesn't have a negative strength modifier and large armor check penalties. Personaly, I'd run the power as normal but replace the Balance checks with Climb checks with a DC equal to the the surface's DC +5. That's the listed DC for slippery surfaces, under the Climb skill in the PHB.
Lixith 06-07-07, 02:06 AM	Spiderclimb lets you climb a wall of force right? And the climb check to climb a verticle WOF is insane... so i'd say the grease wouldn't matter. I vote SC Trumps grease.
Another Gnome 06-07-07, 02:55 AM	A perfectly smooth surface can't be climbed at all, so even with spider climb I wouldn't allow climbing a wall of force; SC lets you ignore Climb checks but it does not say you become able to climb things that you absolutely cannot climb normally. Such as a wall of force or thin air. That said, grease would not affect SC. Since you don't need to make Climb checks, having a slippery surface increase the DC of the check is irrelevant.
Lixith 06-07-07, 04:29 AM	A perfectly smooth surface can't be climbed at all, so even with spider climb I wouldn't allow climbing a wall of force; SC lets you ignore Climb checks but it does not say you become able to climb things that you absolutely cannot climb normally. Such as a wall of force or thin air. That said, grease would not affect SC. Since you don't need to make Climb checks, having a slippery surface increase the DC of the check is irrelevant. The Climb DC for a PERFECT, SMOOTH, FLAT, VERTICLE surface is 70.... but it's epic... in the ELH..... But your right that it says you can't do it in the PHB. So it CAN be done...(if your like level 60 or something!) So i'd say SC will let you climb a WoF..... But i think it's pretty clear that we are right, rule wise, grease won't effect you if your currently under a SC effect.
Seeker95 06-07-07, 08:37 AM	The Climb DC for a PERFECT, SMOOTH, FLAT, VERTICLE surface is 70.... but it's epic... in the ELH.....Which means you can do this only if you are using the Epic rules in your game. But you're right that it says you can't do it in the PHB. So it CAN be done...(if your like level 60 or something!)Only if you use Epic rules in your game. So i'd say SC will let you climb a WoF.....If you are using Epic rules in your game. But i think it's pretty clear that we are right, rule wise, grease won't effect you if you're currently under a SC effect.If you are using Epic rules in your game. (Starting to see a pattern?) Grease will affect your climb. How it affects your climb depends on the rule set you are using. In my game, grease when you are spider climbing will be treated the same as grease affects you when you are walking. Make a balance check.
Kalarus 06-07-07, 09:42 AM	Climb speeds can be a little odd sometimes but essentially you are just walking on the surface, albeit in a slightly different position than normal. All Spiderclimb does, is lets you easily walk on a surface where you normally couldn't. There's no reason to assume you suddenly stop being subject to all normal rules for walking. A walking creature is solidly in touch with the ground and normally has no real chance of slipping and falling. Grease alters that chance and gives you just that chance of slipping and falling that you normally would not have. Essentially treat all creatures walking on horizontal floors to have "walk speeds" and it the continuity becomes obvious. Grease has the exact same effect on creatures with climb speeds as it does on creatures with "walk speeds". The surface becomes too slippery to hold on to and an appriopriate reflex save is required. After that, the creature normally gets to move at half speed with a DC 10 balance check. Given how gravity works it makes sense to substitute climb checks for balance checks here, so the creature makes an appropriate climb check instead. Given its climb bonuses it will make the check by default, so if it makes the Reflex save it will not fall but still has to move at half speed. I think this fairly well illustrates the bonus a climb speed gives, as opposed to someone merely climbing a wall.
Lixith 06-07-07, 01:22 PM	Well, SC and wall of force.... debateable. Spiders can climb glass right? As for grease and SC.... i don't think the use or non-use of EPIC rules really should determine how first and second level spells interact with eachother. Guy 1.... "Hey.... i just greased that wall... you should have to make a check or something....what's the deal?" Guy 2... "What do you mean... i'm under the effects of spider climb." Guy 1.... "Hey... were not using epic rules!" Guy 2.... "What? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhh!!! !" splat Anyway... i guess the best way to determin it is whatever the DM thinks. I suppose i can see the argument for requiring a balance check though seeker... makes sense.
Vegepygmy 06-07-07, 01:50 PM	This is one of those situations where, I believe, the RAW merely provide a starting point; it requires the good judgment of an intelligent DM to decide how exactly these two spells interact. Here's how I would do it: the climber must make a Reflex save or fall, per the spell as normal. If he makes the save, he can attempt to Climb through the greased area, but he must make a Climb check against the surface's normal Climb DC +5 for being slippery (per the Climb rules). Since he has a Climb speed, he gets a +8 racial bonus to the check and can always take 10, of course.
Ghost0 06-08-07, 12:09 AM	what if a normal person were climbing, let's say some monkey bars, and the monkey bars were suddenly Greased. Would they get a saving throw? It SAYS all creatures in the area get a saving throw or fall (though in a traditional sense, i think it means they fall prone from a standing position). What most of you are saying is, that if they make their save, then on subsequent rounds they shouldn't make a Balance check, but rather a climb check (albeit the odds are severely in their favor, even if the surface is considered "slippery" with a +5 DC), is that correct? I feel like, if you're going to go all RAW, why not make it a balance check even? Why does balance only have to do with your feet? Balance gets a lot of punch from the Dexterity ability score, and dexterity certainly isn't considered only in the feet... thanks for all your responses.
Seeker95 06-08-07, 08:03 AM	I feel like, if you're going to go all RAW, why not make it a balance check even?You set up a condition that we do not need to accept. "if you're going to go all RAW" is not an acceptable precondition. Most of us tend to go with "RAW + reason". It does not reasonably take a balance check to maintain your climbing grip on a monkeybar that has been greased.
risner 06-08-07, 12:54 PM	It would probably be most fair to give a climbing character the same effects as a walking character: Make a reflex save or fall. Instead of a DC 10 balance check, I'd personally be inclined to house rule a DC 15 climb check to move through the area at half speed. (Climbing seems harder than walking, and a climbing character will most likely have ranks in climb while a walking character probably won't have ranks in balance.) Walking on solid ground = DC 0 Balance (generally you can walk without issues.) 25 An overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds. The next step is "-" for can not be climbed. Does this mean a ceiling without handholds can not be climbed normally? Also there is a +5 DC for "slippery". I'd be inclined to rule climbing on a ceiling with spider climb the same as "ceiling with handholds" since that is how a spider climbs. I'd add +5 DC for +30 DC total and make them roll a +30 DC Climb or Balance check (take their pick.)
solbergb 06-08-07, 01:38 PM	if a subject that has spiderclimb cast upon himself and is, say, climbing on the ceiling, which is suddenly Greased...would you suppose he would automatically fall? what about a vertical wall? Slippers of spider climb are limited "Severely slippery surfaces-icy, oiled, or greased surfaces- make these slippers useless. " but the spell doesn't seem to be. Which surprised me. OTOH, the spell requires use of both hands and both legs to move, where the slippers have only feet touching, hands free. So perhaps they weakened it a bit as a balancing thing. With grease, I'd assume if they passed the reflex save they could hold on, and would apply the slippery terrain penalty to any climb checks for accellerated climbing. I know that with normal climbing that's what I'd do - reflex save to hold on, +slippery to the DC of the climb after that. So it seems sensible to do that with ceiling-clinging or wall-of-force-climbing with spider climb - you're somehow able to get enough surface sticking to the wall in spite of the grease. You only have to roll the climb check for accellerated climbing, if you stick to slow speed, you keep your "traction".
solbergb 06-08-07, 01:41 PM	Walking on solid ground = DC 0 Balance (generally you can walk without issues.) no, walking on solid ground is "not a roll". With armor check penalties and a tower shield, you can easily get in to the negative double-digits for making a DC0 check even with a take 10, but you don't have to. Anyone in armor is likely to fail a DC0 balance check just moving around in combat. That's why you don't have to roll at all. The only "on smooth, solid ground" balance checks are for charging or running up or down a slope. If the slope is too steep, it becomes a climb check. This is in contrast to climbing, where there is always a DC, it's just that creatures with a climb speed can usually make it automatically.
coldshiftdown 06-08-07, 02:02 PM	I actualy came across this in a game before. After consulting the RAW on both spider climb and grease and given it about three minutes of thoughts, the call I made was the same as the solution presented by Kalarus.
solbergb 06-08-07, 07:24 PM	His approach isn't bad. I figure as long as "reflex save or you fall off" is part of it, the mechanic for moving should be somewhat hampered but not impossible. Any houserule or RAW interpretation that gets you there is probably ok.
risner 06-09-07, 01:12 AM	His approach isn't bad. I figure as long as "reflex save or you fall off" is part of it, the mechanic for moving should be somewhat hampered but not impossible. Any houserule or RAW interpretation that gets you there is probably ok. Well part of the problem is that a DC 10 Balance check is hard (a fighter might have a 50% chance), but a DC 10 or DC 15 climb check would be trivial (as in never fail) for anyone who is walking on a DC25 ceiling. Therefore any system that requires a DC 10 or DC 15 Climb check is too easy in this situation. If you kept it a DC 10 Balance check in both cases, that would be fair.
prozacman 06-09-07, 04:06 AM	valid points all... but my rule of thumb for spells like this is: the higher level spell wins... so spider climb(level 2) trumps and ignores grease(level 1)
SunTzuWarmaster 06-09-07, 07:48 AM	Higher level wins is not the preferred solution. The spell to stop someone from walking on the ceiling should be Grease. That being said, why shouldn't you simply use the DC for the surface? 25 An overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds. +5 Surface is slippery (increases DC by 5). make a DC 30 climb check or fall. Most of the characters I play that need to have Spiderclimb cast on them didn't put ranks in climb. So, even though they had a climb speed to climb on the ceiling, if the take 10+2(dex)+8(Spiderclimb), they are going to fall. So, logically, they roll and hope for the natural 20.
risner 06-09-07, 08:34 AM	10+2(dex)+8(Spiderclimb), they are going to fall. So, logically, they roll and hope for the natural 20. Even then, they have a 50% chance of succeeding.
SunTzuWarmaster 06-09-07, 09:48 AM	That round. The same chance of succeeding as someone with 2 ranks in balance and 16 Dex on a normal grease spell.
risner 06-09-07, 03:05 PM	That round. The same chance of succeeding as someone with 2 ranks in balance and 16 Dex on a normal grease spell. Yeah, I was going for this thought with my post: DC 30 Climb on ceiling is roughly the same chance as DC 10 Balance, namely 50% ish chance of falling for a non optimized person on their respective terrains.
Kalarus 06-09-07, 04:09 PM	Well part of the problem is that a DC 10 Balance check is hard (a fighter might have a 50% chance), but a DC 10 or DC 15 climb check would be trivial (as in never fail) for anyone who is walking on a DC25 ceiling. Therefore any system that requires a DC 10 or DC 15 Climb check is too easy in this situation. If you kept it a DC 10 Balance check in both cases, that would be fair. Why is this too easy? A Fighter trying to make a DC 10 balance check (mine incidentally has a 80% chance but that's beside the point :P) is generally not aided by a second level spell. In fact, a spell that gives a bonus on balance checks could easily be the equivalent of a first level spell. The Jump spell for example (PHB p 246) gives a +10 enhancement bonus on Jump checks that increases to +20 and +30 at level 5 and 9 respectively, for one minute per level. The aid of spells is far from inconcievable, and it is even less inconcievable that a second level spell provides greater benefits than a first level spell does. The problem with keeping it a Balance check is that you're not balancing, you're climbing. The key difference here is gravity, climb implies you are moving in opposite directions than gravity usually allows, balance implies that you are trying to divide your weight properly so you don't slip. Balance is completely inappropriate for a spell like Spider Climb, which allows you to climb walls, not change the direction of gravity. Further, keep in mind that Grease is a spell that is encouraged (in the spell description) to be adjucated by the DM as appropriate for the situation. This means that there's no big reason to just stay with the spell effect as written and we can freely replace the Balance check by something more appropriate.