Can templates be added in casting of Shapechange? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can templates be added in casting of Shapechange? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kith Eldebran
10-22-03, 09:14 AM Can templates be added in casting of Shapechange?

It just states the creature can't be unique, and with new errata it seems fair to allow a few templates to be added, it is a ninth level spell.
tonkounakaki
10-22-03, 09:24 AM Only if you're familiar with that creature/template combination
RhoPhiGamma
10-22-03, 12:07 PM Eh, I dunno about that one. The spell doesn't say anything about templates. I personally wouldn't allow that.Player: I'm gonna cast shapechange.
DM: What form are you going to change into?
Player: Oh, just a human... With the Paragon template...
DM: :eek:
tonkounakaki
10-22-03, 12:17 PM And if that wizard had seen (and studied, so as to become familiar with that form) a paragon human you would have to allow it, by the spell
A gelatinous troll is not a troll with the gelationous template applied (even though it is) It's a gelatinous troll. Totally seperate creature than a normal troll.
RhoPhiGamma
10-22-03, 02:59 PM Originally posted by tonkounakaki
And if that wizard had seen (and studied, so as to become familiar with that form) a paragon human you would have to allow it, by the spellI really wouldn't have to do any such thing. What I mean is, if I feel that something is inappropriate/silly/overpowered, I, as DM, can always say no.
Originally posted by tonkounakaki
A gelatinous troll is not a troll with the gelationous template applied (even though it is) It's a gelatinous troll. Totally seperate creature than a normal troll. Of course, everything, including DM fiat, should be done in moderation. If I completely ruled out templates, it would pretty seriously limit the usefulness of shapechange. Adding the paragon template to a baseline human really isn't that horribly munchy, though it's pretty bad. However, shapechanging into a paragon balor is at the extreme end of munchieness. Granted, if any character in any of my games interacted with a paragon balor long enough to allow him to shapechange into one, I'd have to be running one seriously high level game. But I only mentioned it in jest...

Plain text is not the most efficient means of conveying humor. :D

That said, perhaps it would be better to base the limit on shapechange on CR, rather than HD? I'll have to poke through my various books and stew on that for a bit. But what do y'all think about that idea? It'd certainly put an effective limit on template madness.
tarkin
10-22-03, 04:40 PM If I recall correctly, Polymorph specifically forbid Templates.

While Shapechange certainly is more powerfull, if they wanted to cancel a weakness like that, they should specifically mention it, as they did with the "acquires the type" wording.

As such, I would forbid Templates.
mbalbier
10-22-03, 07:39 PM If I remember it also states that you cannot turn into any single specific creature. That would limit most of not all templates.
The general rule of thumb in my campaign is that if it is in the MM or MM2 and you have a high enough appropriate knowledge check you can assume any standard form in there. This excludes things like the mind flayer with 9 sorcerer levels that is listed but does not exclude mind flayers.
Archmage Atrus
10-22-03, 07:44 PM Right... taking away templates makes shapechange useless... I see...
RhoPhiGamma
10-22-03, 08:24 PM Originally posted by Archmage Atrus
Right... taking away templates makes shapechange useless... I see... See what? Speak up!
RhoPhiGamma
10-22-03, 08:28 PM Where exactly does it say polymorph or shapechange does not allow templates?
Dauntless
10-22-03, 08:30 PM Originally posted by RhoPhiGamma
Where exactly does it say polymorph or shapechange does not allow templates?

Shapechange says "As Polymorph except..."

Polymorph says "As alter self except..."

Alter self specifically forbids templates. Neither of the more powerful spells specifically allows them. So the answer is no templates.
RhoPhiGamma
10-22-03, 08:47 PM Originally posted by Dauntless
Shapechange says "As Polymorph except..."

Polymorph says "As alter self except..."

Alter self specifically forbids templates. Neither of the more powerful spells specifically allows them. So the answer is no templates. Ah, it's an inherited thing. I wasn't too sure about it at first. My initial reaction was negative, but then I thought since shapechange changes your type and subtype to match your form, I figured it would allow a template. I'm actually quite glad it does not, since templates rarely increase the number of hitdice, it'd be a great way to munch the hell out of the spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kith Eldebran 10-22-03, 09:14 AM	Can templates be added in casting of Shapechange? It just states the creature can't be unique, and with new errata it seems fair to allow a few templates to be added, it is a ninth level spell.
tonkounakaki 10-22-03, 09:24 AM	Only if you're familiar with that creature/template combination
RhoPhiGamma 10-22-03, 12:07 PM	Eh, I dunno about that one. The spell doesn't say anything about templates. I personally wouldn't allow that.Player: I'm gonna cast shapechange. DM: What form are you going to change into? Player: Oh, just a human... With the Paragon template... DM: :eek:
tonkounakaki 10-22-03, 12:17 PM	And if that wizard had seen (and studied, so as to become familiar with that form) a paragon human you would have to allow it, by the spell A gelatinous troll is not a troll with the gelationous template applied (even though it is) It's a gelatinous troll. Totally seperate creature than a normal troll.
RhoPhiGamma 10-22-03, 02:59 PM	Originally posted by tonkounakaki And if that wizard had seen (and studied, so as to become familiar with that form) a paragon human you would have to allow it, by the spellI really wouldn't have to do any such thing. What I mean is, if I feel that something is inappropriate/silly/overpowered, I, as DM, can always say no. Originally posted by tonkounakaki A gelatinous troll is not a troll with the gelationous template applied (even though it is) It's a gelatinous troll. Totally seperate creature than a normal troll. Of course, everything, including DM fiat, should be done in moderation. If I completely ruled out templates, it would pretty seriously limit the usefulness of shapechange. Adding the paragon template to a baseline human really isn't that horribly munchy, though it's pretty bad. However, shapechanging into a paragon balor is at the extreme end of munchieness. Granted, if any character in any of my games interacted with a paragon balor long enough to allow him to shapechange into one, I'd have to be running one seriously high level game. But I only mentioned it in jest... Plain text is not the most efficient means of conveying humor. :D That said, perhaps it would be better to base the limit on shapechange on CR, rather than HD? I'll have to poke through my various books and stew on that for a bit. But what do y'all think about that idea? It'd certainly put an effective limit on template madness.
tarkin 10-22-03, 04:40 PM	If I recall correctly, Polymorph specifically forbid Templates. While Shapechange certainly is more powerfull, if they wanted to cancel a weakness like that, they should specifically mention it, as they did with the "acquires the type" wording. As such, I would forbid Templates.
mbalbier 10-22-03, 07:39 PM	If I remember it also states that you cannot turn into any single specific creature. That would limit most of not all templates. The general rule of thumb in my campaign is that if it is in the MM or MM2 and you have a high enough appropriate knowledge check you can assume any standard form in there. This excludes things like the mind flayer with 9 sorcerer levels that is listed but does not exclude mind flayers.
Archmage Atrus 10-22-03, 07:44 PM	Right... taking away templates makes shapechange useless... I see...
RhoPhiGamma 10-22-03, 08:24 PM	Originally posted by Archmage Atrus Right... taking away templates makes shapechange useless... I see... See what? Speak up!
RhoPhiGamma 10-22-03, 08:28 PM	Where exactly does it say polymorph or shapechange does not allow templates?
Dauntless 10-22-03, 08:30 PM	Originally posted by RhoPhiGamma Where exactly does it say polymorph or shapechange does not allow templates? Shapechange says "As Polymorph except..." Polymorph says "As alter self except..." Alter self specifically forbids templates. Neither of the more powerful spells specifically allows them. So the answer is no templates.
RhoPhiGamma 10-22-03, 08:47 PM	Originally posted by Dauntless Shapechange says "As Polymorph except..." Polymorph says "As alter self except..." Alter self specifically forbids templates. Neither of the more powerful spells specifically allows them. So the answer is no templates. Ah, it's an inherited thing. I wasn't too sure about it at first. My initial reaction was negative, but then I thought since shapechange changes your type and subtype to match your form, I figured it would allow a template. I'm actually quite glad it does not, since templates rarely increase the number of hitdice, it'd be a great way to munch the hell out of the spell.