Can Wish do this?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Wish do this?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zeful
07-08-06, 12:33 AM Hello all, I was reading in another thread on a different set of forums about ways to get cheap wishes (that was the name of the thread actually) and it quickly devolved into a rules debate with no end.

My point is could the wish spell create an infinite ring of quickened wishes?
More specificly could a summoned (or sicularium(sp?)) effriti create the above item at no penalty?

Why or why not?

Thank you all.
runestar
07-08-06, 12:54 AM From the SRD...
XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

By the RAW, yes, since the xp cost for creating a magic item is negated by it being a SLA or SU ability. However, since pit fiends and solars aren't running around wielding artifact-lv epic magic items with a nigh-infinite gp value, common sense would be to just pretend that such an option does not exist. ;)

Alternatively, you could come to a compromise with your dm, and rule that only the base 5000xp cost is negated, but the wishee must still pay the full xp cost for the wished item.
Zillah
07-08-06, 01:06 AM DM will pervert it. but yea its possible. it will never turn out how you want.
Zeful
07-08-06, 01:16 AM DM will pervert it. but yea its possible. it will never turn out how you want.
Really how? The last time I checked the create magic item ability had no qualifiers or restrictions so it must be okay.
Zillah
07-08-06, 01:34 AM its the DM's job to pervert it if its too powerful. so you can get a ring of infinite wishes, but you get it, with a diety holding it. ****** off diety= you die
Zeful
07-08-06, 02:31 AM That may be true but there is nothing written into the spell that prevents it. There is the ambigious line of "effects more powerful than these", but the create a magic item or improve an exsisting item effect of wish has no limits, only an obscene experiance penalty. To create a ring of infinite quickened wishes you would have to pay somewhere around one and a half million (1,500,000) xp, that would drop many epic level characters to level one. But a level 18 wizard can gate in a effriti and have it use it's wish spell-like ability at no cost to itself, to create the ring. I've already been through this on another thread, so you'll have to try harded.

I would like to point out that this was a creative exercise, much like the record making on the CharOp boards, there was no intention to put it into play.
Zillah
07-08-06, 02:42 AM ok, in the spirit of exercise ill thrown down my thoughts on it.
since its a simulation i will assume that you would play it even though you said it would never come to play.
if i was DMin, i would allow it. just to pervert the effriti ring thats made. i would allow everything to continue until you used a wish spell. then as soon as you did, you would make a will save, a high one, and would fail. you=insane, the end
or make a fort save= fail=stone
anything stupidly easy to destroy a PC. not even destroy, but to punish. i don't like to use the word "broken" but it seems its almost needed. almost. the whole concept is un-needed cause its only a simulation, so the consequences don't really matter. so the situation you gave don't either. nothing is wrong cause its all fake.

if it was not fake, there could be 1 million things that could go wrong with what you suggested. so if it don't matter, why come up with this?
Witch
07-08-06, 05:58 AM If you would ask that, and I were the DM, I would make you lose 5.000 xp and get a ring of three wishes, with only one wish left.

I wouldn't really pervert it, because that's not the DMs job. The DMs job is not to make the players feel bad. It's supposed to be to keep the game balanced.

Wish cannot give you infinite wishes. It's only a ninth level spell.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
07-08-06, 03:03 PM Really how? The last time I checked the create magic item ability had no qualifiers or restrictions so it must be okay.
It cannot create anything worth more than 25,000 gp. Any higher, and the DM has full reign to do whatever s/he wants.
Witch
07-08-06, 03:08 PM It cannot create anything worth more than 25,000 gp. Any higher, and the DM has full reign to do whatever s/he wants.
Not really.

Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Two different options.

When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
There you go - there's the explanation. This is the restriction. Not "DM fiat", but an XP cost. I don't think the DM should get entire liberty - though any weapon that couldn't be bought in his campaign, might not be available through wish either.
Horseshoe_Hermit
07-08-06, 03:18 PM Guys, observe:

Whatever the power level limit of Wish is, it exists. Let's call it X. X = maximum power output of Wish.

Now, let's think about what a Ring of Three Wishes would do.

That ring would have the power 3X, with small penalties for that it is a Ring which has to be worn.

So, if I were to Wish for a Ring of three Wishes, I would be using power X to get power 3X. I just created 2X. This is a contradiction, because if I can get 3X out of a Wish, that means Wish really has 3X power. But that would mean it could create 9X power, which then collapses into a paradox.

A Wish cannot create something more powerful than a Wish, by the first principle of Logic. So, surely, a Wish cannot create any more than 1 Wish.

Creating an infinite number of Wishes would have infinite power. Not only would that power itself be quite the problem for the universe, but surely, infinite power cannot be derived from X power.

Even if Wish's power were an order of infinity, infinite wishes is a separate order of infinity.
Zeful
07-08-06, 03:28 PM Yes the xp cost is the balance for the "create a magic item" power of wish. I'd let someone pay 1.5 million xp, which is possible for a epic level character but most of them have to drop to level one, to create this ring, but eventually every remotely evil guy with plans to take over the world will be after that ring, that's enough for me.
However when you have a sicularium(sp?) or summoned creature use a wish spell-like ability, which have no components, then it becomes really bad (I'd say broken but I don't like that word). However is there anything that would prevent this strategy? I as a DM would not want to be confronted with this without a way to say no that is backed up by the rules.
Acolyte_of_Lucifer
07-08-06, 03:48 PM i agree with horseshoe hermit, even wish has it's limits and cannot create a godlike item...this whole thing just sounds like an amateur "get power quick" scheme for newbs
Witch
07-08-06, 03:50 PM You cannot spend enough xp to lose a level.
A rod of infinite wishes would be an item that costs
9*17*1800
= 275.400 gold.

Now, we'll be adding an ad hoc modifier, because thats ridiculously underpriced.

Ad hoc modifier:
*5 because of imbaness
*10 because of epic

13.770.000

That looks better.
I might even allow that in my game, if it ever gets that high.

On second thought, no. Not even with that price.
Millennium
07-08-06, 04:09 PM My point is could the wish spell create an infinite ring of quickened wishes?
In theory, yes. However, this most definitely falls under the 'greater effects' heading, and so it would be subject to DM fiat and twisting.
More specificly could a summoned (or sicularium(sp?)) effriti create the above item at no penalty?
An extremely-advanced epic efreet might be able to do so. However, keep in mind that you cannot cast a spell with an XP cost if paying the cost would cause you to lose a level. A wish to create this would cost millions of XP to cast. To even have enough "free" XP to cast the spell, an efreet would have to have over a thousand Hit Dice (or slightly fewer character levels). I don't think even the grand sultan of the City of Brass has quite that much.
Why or why not?
Logistics. It could be done, but it would cost so much XP that you're unlikely to ever find an efreet capable of doing it.
thenotoriousJIM
07-08-06, 04:14 PM 13 is still a little low. I would make that the cost for material components in order to make it. I would also rule a character has to make it himself. For 13 million gp and over a million in XP you might as well allow it.
FeceMan
07-08-06, 04:16 PM Really how? The last time I checked the create magic item ability had no qualifiers or restrictions so it must be okay.
That's a joke, right? Or is my sarcasm detection ability rolling really low today?
Zeful
07-08-06, 04:51 PM That's a joke, right? Or is my sarcasm detection ability rolling really low today?
Neither. Here's wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)

Now under the create a magic item or improve the powers of an existing item has no restrictions written into it there is only the payment of xp mentioned at the bottom of the spell. Casting wish as an SLA removes that cost as SLAs have no components thus no xp paid for the item.
Witch
07-08-06, 04:55 PM I would believe only the 5.000 xp is negated. Anything more needs to be paid.

PS:
Made by our own personal munchkin (no offense, Jaerom ^^ Just thought these were appropriate here):
New Magic Items

Rod of Endless Reality Revision: This universal item is a solid and flawless shaft of green psionic crystal. With a command word, its wielder can use reality revision, as the power, at will.
. . Overwhelming clairsentience; ML 51st; Craft Universal Item, reality revision; Price 3,326,200 gp.

Rod of Infinite Miracles: This simple mithral rod is capped in a large flawless diamond. With a command word, its wielder can use miracle, as the spell, at will.
. . Overwhelming universal; CL 51st; Craft Rod, miracle; Price 3,326,200 gp.

Rod of Unlimited Wishes: This ornate golden rod is capped in a large flawless ruby. With a command word, its wielder can use wish, as the spell, at will.
. . Overwhelming universal; CL 51st; Craft Rod, wish; Price 3,326,200 gp.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zeful 07-08-06, 12:33 AM	Hello all, I was reading in another thread on a different set of forums about ways to get cheap wishes (that was the name of the thread actually) and it quickly devolved into a rules debate with no end. My point is could the wish spell create an infinite ring of quickened wishes? More specificly could a summoned (or sicularium(sp?)) effriti create the above item at no penalty? Why or why not? Thank you all.
runestar 07-08-06, 12:54 AM	From the SRD... XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP. By the RAW, yes, since the xp cost for creating a magic item is negated by it being a SLA or SU ability. However, since pit fiends and solars aren't running around wielding artifact-lv epic magic items with a nigh-infinite gp value, common sense would be to just pretend that such an option does not exist. ;) Alternatively, you could come to a compromise with your dm, and rule that only the base 5000xp cost is negated, but the wishee must still pay the full xp cost for the wished item.
Zillah 07-08-06, 01:06 AM	DM will pervert it. but yea its possible. it will never turn out how you want.
Zeful 07-08-06, 01:16 AM	DM will pervert it. but yea its possible. it will never turn out how you want. Really how? The last time I checked the create magic item ability had no qualifiers or restrictions so it must be okay.
Zillah 07-08-06, 01:34 AM	its the DM's job to pervert it if its too powerful. so you can get a ring of infinite wishes, but you get it, with a diety holding it. ****** off diety= you die
Zeful 07-08-06, 02:31 AM	That may be true but there is nothing written into the spell that prevents it. There is the ambigious line of "effects more powerful than these", but the create a magic item or improve an exsisting item effect of wish has no limits, only an obscene experiance penalty. To create a ring of infinite quickened wishes you would have to pay somewhere around one and a half million (1,500,000) xp, that would drop many epic level characters to level one. But a level 18 wizard can gate in a effriti and have it use it's wish spell-like ability at no cost to itself, to create the ring. I've already been through this on another thread, so you'll have to try harded. I would like to point out that this was a creative exercise, much like the record making on the CharOp boards, there was no intention to put it into play.
Zillah 07-08-06, 02:42 AM	ok, in the spirit of exercise ill thrown down my thoughts on it. since its a simulation i will assume that you would play it even though you said it would never come to play. if i was DMin, i would allow it. just to pervert the effriti ring thats made. i would allow everything to continue until you used a wish spell. then as soon as you did, you would make a will save, a high one, and would fail. you=insane, the end or make a fort save= fail=stone anything stupidly easy to destroy a PC. not even destroy, but to punish. i don't like to use the word "broken" but it seems its almost needed. almost. the whole concept is un-needed cause its only a simulation, so the consequences don't really matter. so the situation you gave don't either. nothing is wrong cause its all fake. if it was not fake, there could be 1 million things that could go wrong with what you suggested. so if it don't matter, why come up with this?
Witch 07-08-06, 05:58 AM	If you would ask that, and I were the DM, I would make you lose 5.000 xp and get a ring of three wishes, with only one wish left. I wouldn't really pervert it, because that's not the DMs job. The DMs job is not to make the players feel bad. It's supposed to be to keep the game balanced. Wish cannot give you infinite wishes. It's only a ninth level spell.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-08-06, 03:03 PM	Really how? The last time I checked the create magic item ability had no qualifiers or restrictions so it must be okay. It cannot create anything worth more than 25,000 gp. Any higher, and the DM has full reign to do whatever s/he wants.
Witch 07-08-06, 03:08 PM	It cannot create anything worth more than 25,000 gp. Any higher, and the DM has full reign to do whatever s/he wants. Not really. Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value. Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. Two different options. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP. There you go - there's the explanation. This is the restriction. Not "DM fiat", but an XP cost. I don't think the DM should get entire liberty - though any weapon that couldn't be bought in his campaign, might not be available through wish either.
Horseshoe_Hermit 07-08-06, 03:18 PM	Guys, observe: Whatever the power level limit of Wish is, it exists. Let's call it X. X = maximum power output of Wish. Now, let's think about what a Ring of Three Wishes would do. That ring would have the power 3X, with small penalties for that it is a Ring which has to be worn. So, if I were to Wish for a Ring of three Wishes, I would be using power X to get power 3X. I just created 2X. This is a contradiction, because if I can get 3X out of a Wish, that means Wish really has 3X power. But that would mean it could create 9X power, which then collapses into a paradox. A Wish cannot create something more powerful than a Wish, by the first principle of Logic. So, surely, a Wish cannot create any more than 1 Wish. Creating an infinite number of Wishes would have infinite power. Not only would that power itself be quite the problem for the universe, but surely, infinite power cannot be derived from X power. Even if Wish's power were an order of infinity, infinite wishes is a separate order of infinity.
Zeful 07-08-06, 03:28 PM	Yes the xp cost is the balance for the "create a magic item" power of wish. I'd let someone pay 1.5 million xp, which is possible for a epic level character but most of them have to drop to level one, to create this ring, but eventually every remotely evil guy with plans to take over the world will be after that ring, that's enough for me. However when you have a sicularium(sp?) or summoned creature use a wish spell-like ability, which have no components, then it becomes really bad (I'd say broken but I don't like that word). However is there anything that would prevent this strategy? I as a DM would not want to be confronted with this without a way to say no that is backed up by the rules.
Acolyte_of_Lucifer 07-08-06, 03:48 PM	i agree with horseshoe hermit, even wish has it's limits and cannot create a godlike item...this whole thing just sounds like an amateur "get power quick" scheme for newbs
Witch 07-08-06, 03:50 PM	You cannot spend enough xp to lose a level. A rod of infinite wishes would be an item that costs 9171800 = 275.400 gold. Now, we'll be adding an ad hoc modifier, because thats ridiculously underpriced. Ad hoc modifier: 5 because of imbaness 10 because of epic 13.770.000 That looks better. I might even allow that in my game, if it ever gets that high. On second thought, no. Not even with that price.
Millennium 07-08-06, 04:09 PM	My point is could the wish spell create an infinite ring of quickened wishes? In theory, yes. However, this most definitely falls under the 'greater effects' heading, and so it would be subject to DM fiat and twisting. More specificly could a summoned (or sicularium(sp?)) effriti create the above item at no penalty? An extremely-advanced epic efreet might be able to do so. However, keep in mind that you cannot cast a spell with an XP cost if paying the cost would cause you to lose a level. A wish to create this would cost millions of XP to cast. To even have enough "free" XP to cast the spell, an efreet would have to have over a thousand Hit Dice (or slightly fewer character levels). I don't think even the grand sultan of the City of Brass has quite that much. Why or why not? Logistics. It could be done, but it would cost so much XP that you're unlikely to ever find an efreet capable of doing it.
thenotoriousJIM 07-08-06, 04:14 PM	13 is still a little low. I would make that the cost for material components in order to make it. I would also rule a character has to make it himself. For 13 million gp and over a million in XP you might as well allow it.
FeceMan 07-08-06, 04:16 PM	Really how? The last time I checked the create magic item ability had no qualifiers or restrictions so it must be okay. That's a joke, right? Or is my sarcasm detection ability rolling really low today?
Zeful 07-08-06, 04:51 PM	That's a joke, right? Or is my sarcasm detection ability rolling really low today? Neither. Here's wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) Now under the create a magic item or improve the powers of an existing item has no restrictions written into it there is only the payment of xp mentioned at the bottom of the spell. Casting wish as an SLA removes that cost as SLAs have no components thus no xp paid for the item.
Witch 07-08-06, 04:55 PM	I would believe only the 5.000 xp is negated. Anything more needs to be paid. PS: Made by our own personal munchkin (no offense, Jaerom ^^ Just thought these were appropriate here): New Magic Items Rod of Endless Reality Revision: This universal item is a solid and flawless shaft of green psionic crystal. With a command word, its wielder can use reality revision, as the power, at will. . . Overwhelming clairsentience; ML 51st; Craft Universal Item, reality revision; Price 3,326,200 gp. Rod of Infinite Miracles: This simple mithral rod is capped in a large flawless diamond. With a command word, its wielder can use miracle, as the spell, at will. . . Overwhelming universal; CL 51st; Craft Rod, miracle; Price 3,326,200 gp. Rod of Unlimited Wishes: This ornate golden rod is capped in a large flawless ruby. With a command word, its wielder can use wish, as the spell, at will. . . Overwhelming universal; CL 51st; Craft Rod, wish; Price 3,326,200 gp.