Can Wizards cast Wu-Jen spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Wizards cast Wu-Jen spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
metrocube
12-09-06, 01:44 PM Is there a constuctive difference between Wu Jen spells and Wizard spells? They're both arcane, are they not? Can one class cast the other class's spells? If not, why not?
Nyat
12-09-06, 01:53 PM No, not without taking the Extra Spell feat from complete arcane (which could give you access to one Wu-Jen spell per feat you sink into it). They may both be arcane but they are not the same spell lists. Wizards can't cast all the Wu-Jen spells for the same reasons that Druid's can't cast all Cleric spells (and vice versa). The spell lists are one of the biggest things that seperate caster classes and make them unique.
Witch
12-09-06, 01:53 PM They cannot. There is no true reason. Wizards can't cast Cure Light Wounds, even though Bards can, and both classes cast arcane spells.
Witch
12-09-06, 01:54 PM No, not without taking the Extra Spell feat from complete arcane (which could give you access to one Wu-Jen spell per feat you sink into it). They may both be arcane but they are not the same spell lists. Wizards can't cast all the Wu-Jen spells for the same reasons that Druid's can't cast all Cleric spells (and vice versa). The spell lists are one of the biggest things that seperate caster classes and make them unique.
Don't bring up Extra Spell. It'll cause the entire thread to fall into a debate about that feat.
Seeker95
12-09-06, 03:31 PM Is there a constuctive difference between Wu Jen spells and Wizard spells?The constructive difference is flavor. In an oriental-flavor campaign, wu jen fit. In a western medieval-flavor campaign, wizards fit. In my game, they are the same thing, on in the east (the wizard) and one in the west (the wu jen). That they have travelled different spell list paths is a quirk of fate. If a wizard wants to learn a wu jen spell, s/he must research it. Reverse that, too.
Kresalak
12-09-06, 04:10 PM They can, actually. First, you find a scroll with a Wu-Jen spell on it. Then you decipher the scroll, then you make a DC 15+spell level Spellcraft check. If you suceed, you can scribe that scroll into your spellbook, and then you can use it.
Seeker95
12-09-06, 04:29 PM Krusalak's formula works for copying a new wizard spell into a wizard's spellbook. If the spell does not exist on the wizard's spell list (most wu jen spells), it cannot be copied into the spellbook by that method. It must first be researched.
Kresalak
12-09-06, 04:35 PM No, it works for any arcane spell. A spell must be arcane for it to be deciphered, though Read Magic deciphers any spell. Then you write it into your spellbook. There is nothing there that references wizard spells, only arcane, and with Read Magic that doesn't even matter.
Seeker95
12-09-06, 05:36 PM As long as you are claiming the wizard can write it in there but cannot prepare it, then I'll agree with you. But if you are claiming the wizard can do all that an then cast it, the answer is no. A wizard cannot write non-wizard spells into his spellbook.

A wizard cannot get a bard to make a scroll of cure light wounds, decipher it, write it into his spellbook, and then start casting cure light wounds. Nor can he accomplish this with a wu-jen spell. Nor can he accomplish this with any spell not explicitly on the wizard spell list.
risner
12-09-06, 06:21 PM Is there a constuctive difference between Wu Jen spells and Wizard spells? They're both arcane, are they not? Can one class cast the other class's spells? If not, why not?

Wizards can not cast Wu Jen spells unless they are also Wizard spells.

Why not?
1) It violates the rules.
2) It least to disaster.
3) It is make crystal clear with a FAQ question that asked what spells can a Wizard cast, answer "just wizard spells."

Also, Extra Spell does not allow non Wizard spells to be added without a House Rule. So unless you house rule Extra Spell can add Wu Jen spells, it can't.
risner
12-09-06, 06:24 PM No, it works for any arcane spell. A spell must be arcane for it to be deciphered, though Read Magic deciphers any spell. Then you write it into your spellbook. There is nothing there that references wizard spells, only arcane, and with Read Magic that doesn't even matter.

False, and this exact example is cleared up in the FAQ saying what you suggest can not be done.
It can not be done because you can not copy a non Wizard (or prohibited school spell) into your spell book if you are a Wizard (or other spell book carrying class.) If it isn't on your class list, it can not be in your spell book without a house rule.
Thane26425
12-09-06, 06:41 PM Krusalak's formula works for copying a new wizard spell into a wizard's spellbook. If the spell does not exist on the wizard's spell list (most wu jen spells), it cannot be copied into the spellbook by that method. It must first be researched.

I agree. A wizard who finds a scroll or sees a Wu jen spell used could research their own version of the spell.
Sphere
12-09-06, 06:44 PM Bah nm, that was allready covered.
Nezkrul
12-09-06, 10:58 PM I agree. A wizard who finds a scroll or sees a Wu jen spell used could research their own version of the spell.

WOW! That super cool bard just healed that wounded fighter! That spell is totally mine after a few weeks of research!

-random wizard.
Seeker95
12-09-06, 11:56 PM That spell is totally mine after a few weeks of research!Assuming your DM allows it, yes. DM approval is required for all new spells researched by the PC. And one of the suggestions in the DMG regarding new spells is that the DM not allow wizards to cast healing spells. If your DM chooses to ignore this suggestion, then your wizard can indeed successfully research a healing spell.

In my campaign, the wizards (and the players who play them) know that wizards cannot successfully research healing spells. They can try, but they know ahead of time it will fail. Most choose not to try.
User5127
12-10-06, 12:12 AM to add another nail in the coffin as to why a wizard can't learn a wujen spell.

the archivist can only learn cleric spells. until they added the line in the arcavist description that says they can learn druid spells off of scrolls. (although I think it allows them to learn any divine scroll in general.)

thought I'd point out precedence of why a class was able to learn another class list of spells and how they can do that. *shrugs*

EDIT: the only reason a DM would allow a wizard/sorcerer to learn a wu jen spell with out having to research it would be if they put that spell on the respective list. for example: wu jen aren't a class a player can choose from, but the DM likes some of teh spells. so he adds them to the wiz/sor list. in fact he may even like other wu jen spells and decide they are divine and add them to either the cleric or druid list.

but thats just an example. and if thats why you want a wu jen spell (ie: wu jen don't exist, but you like a spell and want it), talk with your DM about having it put onto the wizard list. its worth a shot.

and he may require you to under go some research. good. you get a free adventure out of your spell. yay. every one is happy.
Steropes
12-10-06, 03:28 AM In my campaign, the wizards (and the players who play them) know that wizards cannot successfully research healing spells. They can try, but they know ahead of time it will fail. Most choose not to try.

Wizards can cast healing spells, but the energy can't come from positive energy plane. (Vampire thouch and the reverse spell which name I've forgotten) So if wizard can't research healing spells this spells should be removed.
But I too think no wujen spells to wizard, they might see the Art in different ways and thats why they can't cast spells ment to others.
Seeker95
12-10-06, 09:23 AM Wizards can cast healing spells, but the energy can't come from positive energy plane.And the reference rule for such an opinion to be considered as fact?So if wizard can't research healing spells this spells should be removed.That is an opinion worthy of a debate, but not in this thread.
Steropes
12-10-06, 10:10 AM The healing spells are gift from deityes. Wizards are not so close to deityes as the clerics or druids. Perhaps a spell can draw energy from positive energy plane, but it should not be healing based(defence perhaps). Allso it ruins game balance:wizards are quit pigs allready. The healing spell thath I allow drain energy from balance. If you stole someones liveforce, where does it go?
Secrets Untold
12-10-06, 10:53 AM Er... thath? Allso? Deityes? Spell Check?

And drudic spells come from a close bond with nature, and so with the (suposedly) diving Mother Nature. Or some hippie crap like that. A does not get spells from gods. They may worship a god, but so does a fighter, and he doesn't get spells from them. And wizards don't get spells from gods because their patron doesn't care enough.
Nezkrul
12-10-06, 12:54 PM Spell Compendium, pg 111, top left.

Healing Touch

Sor/Wiz 3

yes they can cast healing spells, but it just has to be a necromancy effect.
(it's the exact reverse of vampiric touch, except that they only take half the damage they heal)

ignore the typo at the end of the spell, evidently the guy writing the spell forgot that the word "half" was in the sentence two lines up when he wrote that it can't heal more hitpoints than you currently have +10.
TokTok
12-10-06, 04:45 PM Alternative options to prevent quarrels like this:

-Multiclass as a spellthief, suck the spells out of a Wu-Jen. There, Wu-Jen spells for a wizard. Ofcourse it's temporary and a one-shot, but who cares.

-Multiclass in artificer, and make a living construct spellcaster that can cast every spell in excistance (Warning: Requires you to be epic, and your DM to be drunk enough). Make it female. Why female? Because it's fun.

-Make your own special Spellcaster class that can learn every spell from every class. (Probably also requires a drunk DM)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
metrocube 12-09-06, 01:44 PM	Is there a constuctive difference between Wu Jen spells and Wizard spells? They're both arcane, are they not? Can one class cast the other class's spells? If not, why not?
Nyat 12-09-06, 01:53 PM	No, not without taking the Extra Spell feat from complete arcane (which could give you access to one Wu-Jen spell per feat you sink into it). They may both be arcane but they are not the same spell lists. Wizards can't cast all the Wu-Jen spells for the same reasons that Druid's can't cast all Cleric spells (and vice versa). The spell lists are one of the biggest things that seperate caster classes and make them unique.
Witch 12-09-06, 01:53 PM	They cannot. There is no true reason. Wizards can't cast Cure Light Wounds, even though Bards can, and both classes cast arcane spells.
Witch 12-09-06, 01:54 PM	No, not without taking the Extra Spell feat from complete arcane (which could give you access to one Wu-Jen spell per feat you sink into it). They may both be arcane but they are not the same spell lists. Wizards can't cast all the Wu-Jen spells for the same reasons that Druid's can't cast all Cleric spells (and vice versa). The spell lists are one of the biggest things that seperate caster classes and make them unique. Don't bring up Extra Spell. It'll cause the entire thread to fall into a debate about that feat.
Seeker95 12-09-06, 03:31 PM	Is there a constuctive difference between Wu Jen spells and Wizard spells?The constructive difference is flavor. In an oriental-flavor campaign, wu jen fit. In a western medieval-flavor campaign, wizards fit. In my game, they are the same thing, on in the east (the wizard) and one in the west (the wu jen). That they have travelled different spell list paths is a quirk of fate. If a wizard wants to learn a wu jen spell, s/he must research it. Reverse that, too.
Kresalak 12-09-06, 04:10 PM	They can, actually. First, you find a scroll with a Wu-Jen spell on it. Then you decipher the scroll, then you make a DC 15+spell level Spellcraft check. If you suceed, you can scribe that scroll into your spellbook, and then you can use it.
Seeker95 12-09-06, 04:29 PM	Krusalak's formula works for copying a new wizard spell into a wizard's spellbook. If the spell does not exist on the wizard's spell list (most wu jen spells), it cannot be copied into the spellbook by that method. It must first be researched.
Kresalak 12-09-06, 04:35 PM	No, it works for any arcane spell. A spell must be arcane for it to be deciphered, though Read Magic deciphers any spell. Then you write it into your spellbook. There is nothing there that references wizard spells, only arcane, and with Read Magic that doesn't even matter.
Seeker95 12-09-06, 05:36 PM	As long as you are claiming the wizard can write it in there but cannot prepare it, then I'll agree with you. But if you are claiming the wizard can do all that an then cast it, the answer is no. A wizard cannot write non-wizard spells into his spellbook. A wizard cannot get a bard to make a scroll of cure light wounds, decipher it, write it into his spellbook, and then start casting cure light wounds. Nor can he accomplish this with a wu-jen spell. Nor can he accomplish this with any spell not explicitly on the wizard spell list.
risner 12-09-06, 06:21 PM	Is there a constuctive difference between Wu Jen spells and Wizard spells? They're both arcane, are they not? Can one class cast the other class's spells? If not, why not? Wizards can not cast Wu Jen spells unless they are also Wizard spells. Why not? 1) It violates the rules. 2) It least to disaster. 3) It is make crystal clear with a FAQ question that asked what spells can a Wizard cast, answer "just wizard spells." Also, Extra Spell does not allow non Wizard spells to be added without a House Rule. So unless you house rule Extra Spell can add Wu Jen spells, it can't.
risner 12-09-06, 06:24 PM	No, it works for any arcane spell. A spell must be arcane for it to be deciphered, though Read Magic deciphers any spell. Then you write it into your spellbook. There is nothing there that references wizard spells, only arcane, and with Read Magic that doesn't even matter. False, and this exact example is cleared up in the FAQ saying what you suggest can not be done. It can not be done because you can not copy a non Wizard (or prohibited school spell) into your spell book if you are a Wizard (or other spell book carrying class.) If it isn't on your class list, it can not be in your spell book without a house rule.
Thane26425 12-09-06, 06:41 PM	Krusalak's formula works for copying a new wizard spell into a wizard's spellbook. If the spell does not exist on the wizard's spell list (most wu jen spells), it cannot be copied into the spellbook by that method. It must first be researched. I agree. A wizard who finds a scroll or sees a Wu jen spell used could research their own version of the spell.
Sphere 12-09-06, 06:44 PM	Bah nm, that was allready covered.
Nezkrul 12-09-06, 10:58 PM	I agree. A wizard who finds a scroll or sees a Wu jen spell used could research their own version of the spell. WOW! That super cool bard just healed that wounded fighter! That spell is totally mine after a few weeks of research! -random wizard.
Seeker95 12-09-06, 11:56 PM	That spell is totally mine after a few weeks of research!Assuming your DM allows it, yes. DM approval is required for all new spells researched by the PC. And one of the suggestions in the DMG regarding new spells is that the DM not allow wizards to cast healing spells. If your DM chooses to ignore this suggestion, then your wizard can indeed successfully research a healing spell. In my campaign, the wizards (and the players who play them) know that wizards cannot successfully research healing spells. They can try, but they know ahead of time it will fail. Most choose not to try.
User5127 12-10-06, 12:12 AM	to add another nail in the coffin as to why a wizard can't learn a wujen spell. the archivist can only learn cleric spells. until they added the line in the arcavist description that says they can learn druid spells off of scrolls. (although I think it allows them to learn any divine scroll in general.) thought I'd point out precedence of why a class was able to learn another class list of spells and how they can do that. shrugs EDIT: the only reason a DM would allow a wizard/sorcerer to learn a wu jen spell with out having to research it would be if they put that spell on the respective list. for example: wu jen aren't a class a player can choose from, but the DM likes some of teh spells. so he adds them to the wiz/sor list. in fact he may even like other wu jen spells and decide they are divine and add them to either the cleric or druid list. but thats just an example. and if thats why you want a wu jen spell (ie: wu jen don't exist, but you like a spell and want it), talk with your DM about having it put onto the wizard list. its worth a shot. and he may require you to under go some research. good. you get a free adventure out of your spell. yay. every one is happy.
Steropes 12-10-06, 03:28 AM	In my campaign, the wizards (and the players who play them) know that wizards cannot successfully research healing spells. They can try, but they know ahead of time it will fail. Most choose not to try. Wizards can cast healing spells, but the energy can't come from positive energy plane. (Vampire thouch and the reverse spell which name I've forgotten) So if wizard can't research healing spells this spells should be removed. But I too think no wujen spells to wizard, they might see the Art in different ways and thats why they can't cast spells ment to others.
Seeker95 12-10-06, 09:23 AM	Wizards can cast healing spells, but the energy can't come from positive energy plane.And the reference rule for such an opinion to be considered as fact?So if wizard can't research healing spells this spells should be removed.That is an opinion worthy of a debate, but not in this thread.
Steropes 12-10-06, 10:10 AM	The healing spells are gift from deityes. Wizards are not so close to deityes as the clerics or druids. Perhaps a spell can draw energy from positive energy plane, but it should not be healing based(defence perhaps). Allso it ruins game balance:wizards are quit pigs allready. The healing spell thath I allow drain energy from balance. If you stole someones liveforce, where does it go?
Secrets Untold 12-10-06, 10:53 AM	Er... thath? Allso? Deityes? Spell Check? And drudic spells come from a close bond with nature, and so with the (suposedly) diving Mother Nature. Or some hippie crap like that. A does not get spells from gods. They may worship a god, but so does a fighter, and he doesn't get spells from them. And wizards don't get spells from gods because their patron doesn't care enough.
Nezkrul 12-10-06, 12:54 PM	Spell Compendium, pg 111, top left. Healing Touch Sor/Wiz 3 yes they can cast healing spells, but it just has to be a necromancy effect. (it's the exact reverse of vampiric touch, except that they only take half the damage they heal) ignore the typo at the end of the spell, evidently the guy writing the spell forgot that the word "half" was in the sentence two lines up when he wrote that it can't heal more hitpoints than you currently have +10.
TokTok 12-10-06, 04:45 PM	Alternative options to prevent quarrels like this: -Multiclass as a spellthief, suck the spells out of a Wu-Jen. There, Wu-Jen spells for a wizard. Ofcourse it's temporary and a one-shot, but who cares. -Multiclass in artificer, and make a living construct spellcaster that can cast every spell in excistance (Warning: Requires you to be epic, and your DM to be drunk enough). Make it female. Why female? Because it's fun. -Make your own special Spellcaster class that can learn every spell from every class. (Probably also requires a drunk DM)