Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DevilKiller 07-25-05, 07:08 PM	Let's say you're a wizard who wants to command an army of undead. Are there any decent spells or feats you can use to heal the undead? The only spells I've found which look helpful at all are Negative Energy Burst and Ray from 3e Tome & Blood. Multiclassing and cohorts aren't an option, but material from any WotC book is ok.
Seeker95 07-25-05, 08:01 PM	Enervation, although it's temporary. Also, you could take a few ranks into UMD and get a wand of inflict light wounds
Osedox 07-25-05, 08:11 PM	In Libris Mortis there is a feat called "Lord of the Uttercold" which allows you to deal half negitive energy damage to any cold spell you cast, and skeletons just happen to be immune to cold so it is possible to use on like a cone of cold maiming your enemies and at the same time healing your skeletons!
DevilKiller 07-25-05, 11:07 PM	Seeker, Enervation is an ok power up for an undead cohort perhaps, but I'm looking for actual repairs. The wand is a pretty obvious but expensive solution. Thanks though! Osedox, this Lord of the Uttercold thing sounds like exactly the kind of thing I was looking for though. It is too bad it can't work for zombies, but beggars can't be choosers. I'll have to look for other undead immune to cold...or any element I suppose since there are elemental substitution feats. Thanks! Any other ideas out there?
belewda 07-25-05, 11:10 PM	You could always research your own spell to heal the undead.
Shatteredtower 07-25-05, 11:56 PM	If you're dealing in armies, another one to consider is the Destruction Retribution feat. Every undead creature you create heals nearby undead when it is cut down -- and does negative energy damage to other creatures. I could have sworn I saw a spell somewhere that granted undead fast healing for a limited time, but it may have been my imagination. No, wait; I'm thinking of a 10th level spell from 2nd Edition Dark Sun. I think you might find a 3rd Edition version with an internet search, however -- and it might have been placed at a more reasonable level. ;) Edit: Sorry, the feat is from Libris Mortis. And the search would be on Dark Sun. I'd provide a link, but I'm a bit pressed for time to be looking for their site (and the spell list they've got with it).
DevilKiller 07-26-05, 04:57 AM	FYI - Lord of the Uttercold isn't in Libris Mortis. It looks like it is in Complete Arcane. That's a nuisance since I've been unable to purchase a copy due to the otherwise well stocked two gaming stores in my area not having a single copy between them. How many levels higher do you have to cast the spell to get the negative energy effect from this Metamagic?
smrtgmp 07-26-05, 05:02 AM	I suggest researching a negative energy version of one of the classic area effect spells, such as fireball or lightning bolt. I would place such a spell one level higher than its energy equivalent (i.e. 4th level for a darkling bolt/ball/whatever). That way you can blast your enemies while healing your minions.
Sildatorak 07-26-05, 05:09 AM	You can always pick up Lord of the Uttercold and tack Nonlethal Substitution on it. That way it doesn't matter if the undead are immune to cold damage. Plus you can take any strong prisoners brought down by the nonlethal damage to your vampire lietenant to be turned undead. Also, I don't have CAr with me ATM, but I don't believe that Lord of the Uttercold is metamagic. I think it applies to all of your cold spells automatically. I could be quite wrong, though.
smrtgmp 07-26-05, 05:17 AM	No, its metamagic, but there is no cost to apply it (other than an increase in casting time for a spontaneous caster, of course).
DevilKiller 07-26-05, 07:04 PM	Metamagic with no increase in casting cost? Sweet! I wouldn't really feel comfortable designing a "negative energy Fireball". It just seems too different from any wizard spell in the books. There is a Negative Energy Blast somewhere, but as I recall the damage was fairly trivial, 1d8 plus 1 per level, max 1d8+10. I guess that's actually not terrible for healing a mass of wimpy undead, but since there's a Will save for half it isn't much of a damage spell. An Utter Cone of Cold would be better all around barring elemental resistances (and lack thereof). Substituting (Utter) cold into a Wall of Fire and having your skeletons stand in it could be an interesting tactic if Uttercold will work that way. I figure your skeletons would get healed for 9 or 10 damage per round, almost as good as regeneration, and it would still hurt your enemies. Cool feat, pun intended... EDIT: I just thought of another question. If you had Lord of the Uttercold and used the energy substitution feat to make a Fireball that did cold damage, would the Fireball also do half negative energy damage, or would it still be a "Fire" spell even though it does cold damage?
Rohano 07-26-05, 09:53 PM	Isn't there an arcane spell called Negative Energy Ray or something like that? That's like projectile healing to undead. Otherwise, just use a spell that has a death affect. Rather than force the undead to make a save-or-die, it totally heals the undead to the maximum.
belewda 07-26-05, 10:07 PM	Metamagic with no increase in casting cost? Sweet! I wouldn't really feel comfortable designing a "negative energy Fireball". It just seems too different from any wizard spell in the books. There is a Negative Energy Blast somewhere, but as I recall the damage was fairly trivial, 1d8 plus 1 per level, max 1d8+10. I guess that's actually not terrible for healing a mass of wimpy undead, but since there's a Will save for half it isn't much of a damage spell. An Utter Cone of Cold would be better all around barring elemental resistances (and lack thereof). Substituting (Utter) cold into a Wall of Fire and having your skeletons stand in it could be an interesting tactic if Uttercold will work that way. I figure your skeletons would get healed for 9 or 10 damage per round, almost as good as regeneration, and it would still hurt your enemies. Cool feat, pun intended... EDIT: I just thought of another question. If you had Lord of the Uttercold and used the energy substitution feat to make a Fireball that did cold damage, would the Fireball also do half negative energy damage, or would it still be a "Fire" spell even though it does cold damage? i think you misunderstood what the feat does. it allows you to substitute negative energy for half of the damage from a cold spell... not turn spells into cold damage. so you could, for example, turn half the damage from a cone of cold into negative energy damage but not half the damage from a wall of fire (since wall of fire isn't a cold spell). this was my understanding of it, anyway.
belewda 07-26-05, 10:11 PM	Oops, I just realised that you have to have Energy Substitution (Cold) in order to get Lord of the Uttercold, so any spell you cast could potentially be cold damage. My bad. Ignore me.
Lassar 07-27-05, 09:12 AM	well, i am pretty sure I have seen a spell called: Repair undead... Sorry, I don't have my books with me... Think it is from Hollowfaust - City of Necromancers.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 07-27-05, 09:18 AM	Personally, if you're a wizard who wants undead minions, you should focus most of your efforts on being extremely bitter and spiteful towards clerics.
Hustler One 07-27-05, 10:34 AM	I think there is a spell in the Tome of Magic book. Negative Energy Burst. Nice AoE for undead groups.
Mercurius 07-27-05, 11:15 AM	Additionally, it doesn't seem to be a far leap to take the Repair X Damage line of spells and turn them into spells that repair undead instead of constructs. In fact, if they didn't specifically say that they had to target constructs, it could be argued that an undead already received their benefit. This is a severe limitation of the undead master arcanist, and one I'll have to address in my current campaign eventually. I'd completely forgotten about it until now...
Venshad 07-27-05, 02:56 PM	Well, there is Chill Touch... although your undead must save WILL or be panicked (if your GM is reasonable or flexible he may exclude the save).
Osedox 07-27-05, 02:59 PM	Sorry about the book mix up from my first post those two books are my favorite and I always get them mixed up glad Lord of the Uttercold works alright too bad it only works with Skeletons though
Lycanthromancer 07-27-05, 03:25 PM	Well, there is Chill Touch... although your undead must save WILL or be panicked (if your GM is reasonable or flexible he may exclude the save). But I thought that undead were immune to mind-affecting effects...
smrtgmp 07-27-05, 05:45 PM	Metamagic with no increase in casting cost? Sweet!its not the only one. There are quite a few in CA. I wouldn't really feel comfortable designing a "negative energy Fireball". It just seems too different from any wizard spell in the books.Thats kind of the point of researching a spell. Why would you research something thats already out there? IMO a damaging negative energy spell is very fitting (flavor wise) for arcane necromancy. Of course, YMMV.
smrtgmp 07-27-05, 05:47 PM	But I thought that undead were immune to mind-affecting effects... They are. But chill touch isnt mind-affecting. Furthermore, the spell specifically says that they "act as if panicked."
Venshad 07-27-05, 06:45 PM	Maybe just research a cantrip like Disrupt Undead, with oposite effect. What do you think?
Wolf72 07-27-05, 08:58 PM	Maybe just research a cantrip like Disrupt Undead, with oposite effect. What do you think? repairing 1d6 of dmg for undead seems a bit much for a 0lvl spell ... on second thought it's such a limited use I might allow it
Sildatorak 07-28-05, 01:58 AM	I just thought of another question. If you had Lord of the Uttercold and used the energy substitution feat to make a Fireball that did cold damage, would the Fireball also do half negative energy damage, or would it still be a "Fire" spell even though it does cold damage? The energy substitution feat pulls the original energy descriptor off the spell and replaces it with the one appropriate for the energy you're subbing in. So a Cold Substitution Wall of Fire has the [cold] descriptor and deals cold damage. Tacking Lord of the Uttercold on it is perfectly within the rules. glad Lord of the Uttercold works alright too bad it only works with Skeletons though That is why nonlethal substitution is such a great spell for anyone who wants to blast AoE's into their armies of undead. Makes lord of the uttercold work for any type of undead.
smrtgmp 07-28-05, 02:58 AM	But if its doing non-lethal damage instead of cold damage, wouldnt that mean that it no longer qualifies for Lord of the Uttercold? I dont have my books with me, so I cant check on anything.
Sildatorak 07-28-05, 04:19 AM	But if its doing non-lethal damage instead of cold damage, wouldnt that mean that it no longer qualifies for Lord of the Uttercold? I dont have my books with me, so I cant check on anything. It will deal nonlethal cold damage, AFAIK. Of course I could be quite wrong since I don't actually own CAr and can't check the wording.
Lassar 07-28-05, 05:17 AM	Oh, i just remembered a nice feat, calles Taint spell. It is from the Dragons I think. It allows you to convert half of the elemental damage you would deal with a spell into negative energy damage. Spell Level goes up by one. Nice, when you catch your foes and your undead allies in a tainted cone of cold...
Wyrd Bearer 07-28-05, 11:16 AM	Off the top of my head, the only way I can think of a good way to heal loads of undead at once is to start working with your DM and together the two of you come up with some balanced new spells. I'm leaning personally towards arcane versions of the vigor spells in CD where instead of granting your living party members fast healing for a while instead you generate a field that strengthens the connection of undead to the negative energy plane and thus grants them fast healing as long as their within a certain radius of you. Or you can do what I have done and *whisper whisper* allow wizards specialized in necromancy learn the cure and inflict spells, because in my games I believe that necromancers are the masters of both life and death. This will allow you to heal your minions almost as well as a cleric. Though you didn't hear this from me since some people seem to think that a wizard who burns up his limited slots with melee touch spells instead of fireballs is broken and against canon, but 1) its not broken and 2) its your game. Hopefully this won't cause another arcane healing argument which was in another thread a while back and if it does, I won't respond to it here. The destructive retribution trick is quite good, unfortunately you'll be burning 2 of your limited feats to do this so you may want to think carefully before committing so strongly to that plan. As people have said before, Lord of Uttercold has its name because you always deal cold damage with it. However you could always cast a protection from cold spell on your minions before healing them. ===== Personally, if you're a wizard who wants undead minions, you should focus most of your efforts on being extremely bitter and spiteful towards clerics. Its true, all that spite goes a long way. At least they made a concession by giving us arcane necros command undead in 3.5. At least now we can actually control the undead we make. 3ed Arcane Necro- "I cast create undead on that corpse and make it into a morhg." DM- "Okay, you do the ritual. At the end, the morgh stands up and attacks you because you don't have control over it." AN- "Oh for the love of Nerull! Expedious Retreat!!!!" Cleric- "Hah hah, silly wizard, undead are for clerics." *Commands morgh* AN- *from across the room* "Bigby's Indignant Slap!" 3.5 AN- "I cast create undead on that corpse and make it into a morhg." DM- "Okay, you do the ritual. At the end, the morgh stands up and attacks you because you don't have control over it." AN- "No worries, Command undead! Hah hah, take that you stupid cleric!" Cleric- "Whatever. Can you heal it? Not really but I can. Better yet, can you go without preparing any inflict spells and still be able to heal it? Nope, but I can cast them spontaneously. Can you command it without using up your spell slots? Nope, you can't but I have a class feature for that. Can you go fight along side of it while wearing full plate? Nope, but I can be as sloppy with my somatic components as I like and my spells will still work. Can you bolster it against other clerics? Nope but again, I have a class feature for that." AN- "Damn, I'm still inferior!"
Sildatorak 07-29-05, 05:21 AM	It will deal nonlethal cold damage, AFAIK. Of course I could be quite wrong since I don't actually own CAr and can't check the wording. Turns out I was quite wrong. We gamed tonight and I checked the wording of nonlethal substitution. It replaces the energy type completely rather than making it a nonlethal damage of the same energy type. I guess the Lord of the Uttercold trick will only work on skellies and undead on which you've cast protection from cold.
IMarvinTPA 07-29-05, 01:05 PM	Turns out I was quite wrong. We gamed tonight and I checked the wording of nonlethal substitution. It replaces the energy type completely rather than making it a nonlethal damage of the same energy type. I guess the Lord of the Uttercold trick will only work on skellies and undead on which you've cast protection from cold. It depends on the order of the spells. Prepare a Fireball Apply Energy Substitution (Cold) first Then Apply Utter Cold Second Then substitute the remaining Cold damage to Non-Lethal damage. Thus, you are left with half negative and half non-lethal damage. Your undead will ignore the non-lethal part, and be healed by the negative energy part. Your foes will go down just as fast, although magical healing will be twice as effective. (Are there any other +0 metamagics we can add to this!? At this point just for the heck of it.) IMarv