Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yonman 11-30-05, 06:09 PM	If you were being grappled, I was thinking if you could simply move through your grappler if you were blinking since you could move through objects less than 5' thick with ease (assuming your grappler was medium sized of course). Any thoughts?
farfairer 11-30-05, 06:34 PM	The seventh paragraph of the spell description says: As an incorporial creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures. So I would say that as long as the grappling creature was not also incorporial or had a full body ghost touch ability there is no reason why you couldn't simply faze through him. Just remember since Blink has a somatic component, you are going to have to cast it prior to being grappled or cast it stilled.
Purkake 11-30-05, 06:42 PM	Never mind me, stupid spell description grrrr.
tarkin 11-30-05, 09:48 PM	There is another interpretation available. The answer depends not on what the spell Blink says, nor on what you can do while ethereal. Instead it depends on how you read the "Move" in the Grapple section You can use the "Movement is movement, no matter how you do it" rule. You can't move in a grapple without winning a grapple check. It does not say "you can't move in the normal 3 directions without winning a grapple check" Therefore: While Grappling, just as it is impossible to move in the North-South direction, and it is impossible to move in the West-East direction, and it is impossible to move in the Up-Down (Fly) direction, it is also impoossible to move in the Ethereal-Material plane (Blink) direction, and the Astral-Material plane (Teleportation), without first winning an opposed grapple check. In other words, even if you cast the blink spell, by grappling I can physically hold you in this plane, preventing you from going ethereal, and therefore you never blink. This interpreation is just as valid/core as the more common "planar travel is not movement" idea. I personally use the "movement is movement", finding "planar travel is not movement" to indicate ignorance of the meanings of the words "Dimension", "Travel", "Planar", and "movement".
jaelis 11-30-05, 09:50 PM	That's cool. So you stop blinking if someone grabs ahold of you? If you won an opposed grapple check, could you force your opponent to blink with you?
spectralphoenix 11-30-05, 10:00 PM	I don't think so. You can't conciously control your blinking, so I don't think it qualifies as movement. Grappling isn't really discussed that much, truth be told. If any spell should have special effects when grappling, it's fire shield.
Princeoflowlight 11-30-05, 10:11 PM	There is another interpretation available. The answer depends not on what the spell Blink says, nor on what you can do while ethereal. Instead it depends on how you read the "Move" in the Grapple section You can use the "Movement is movement, no matter how you do it" rule. You can't move in a grapple without winning a grapple check. It does not say "you can't move in the normal 3 directions without winning a grapple check" Therefore: While Grappling, just as it is impossible to move in the North-South direction, and it is impossible to move in the West-East direction, and it is impossible to move in the Up-Down (Fly) direction, it is also impoossible to move in the Ethereal-Material plane (Blink) direction, and the Astral-Material plane (Teleportation), without first winning an opposed grapple check. In other words, even if you cast the blink spell, by grappling I can physically hold you in this plane, preventing you from going ethereal, and therefore you never blink. This interpreation is just as valid/core as the more common "planar travel is not movement" idea. I personally use the "movement is movement", finding "planar travel is not movement" to indicate ignorance of the meanings of the words "Dimension", "Travel", "Planar", and "movement". What kind of wrestling hold can prevent someone from sliding through the fifth dimension? Without Ghost touch, why should someone's arms be a barrier to the Ethereal plane?
jaelis 11-30-05, 10:19 PM	Without Ghost touch, why should someone's arms be a barrier to the Ethereal plane? Well, why shouldn't they be? Who are we to say how the spell works? Not that I would ever have come up with Tarkin's interpretation, but I don't think you can say it is wrong. Just... creative.
Vanigo 11-30-05, 11:27 PM	You can use the "Movement is movement, no matter how you do it" rule. You can't move in a grapple without winning a grapple check. It does not say "you can't move in the normal 3 directions without winning a grapple check"Where do you see that? In the "Grappling Consequences" section it says that "you can't move normally while grappling" (emphasis mine). Blinking is definetly not normal movement. In the list of actions you can take, it lists "move" as an option, but does not rule out other movement.
jaxpur 11-30-05, 11:33 PM	From the SRD: No Movement: You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check (see below) to move while grappling. (seeing below...) Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. I think it is a big stretch to rule that this movement restriction confines a person to the Material Plane. There is no reason to think that blinking is part of movement. You don't need to take a move action to blink. In fact, since you are "blinking rapidly" (50% chance to make it through 5' of solid material without rematerializing) I don't see how you could move a grapple even if you do win a grapple check. Nor should you (or your opponent) be able to maintain a grapple if one of you is blinking (or both blinking for that matter).
tarkin 12-01-05, 11:30 AM	The above objections demonstrate an ignorance of dimensional geometry. I suggest you read Flatland, a great book even if you already understand the concepts involved. There is no real difference between N-S, E-W, U-D, and any other dimension. That includes Astral-Material, Ethereal-Material, or even Futrue-Past. Imagine an upright pole. Imagine my hand grabs the pole loosely (touch). My hand does not block the movement in the up-down direction, but does block the pole from being moved North-South or East-West. (Note the pole is also moving into the future at the exact same rate as my hand is) Now I tighten my grip (grapple). The friction created by my hand in the N-S and E-W dimension prevents it from moving in the U-D dimension. Now add in two more directions, Astral-Material and Etheral-Material. If sufficient force is applied to the pole, it will move and either I will let go, or the pole will carry me with it. Just as the friction of my hand prevents the pole from moving U-D, it also prevents it from moving A-M, E-M, or even F-P. If the pole tried to travel in any direction, either I hold it where it is, I let go, or the pole has to bring me with it. ---- Now assume I am wrong OK, I grab someone and attempt to teleport. Whoops, I can't hold on to them, I teleport away, leaving them behind. Guess, what, I also show up naked, my clothes does not teleport either, they are just held on my body by friction. So the ability to teleport carrying any object or other people indicates that yes, friction does hold things together in the A-M and E-M direction. Some of you are going to know say that it is the spell, not the friction that does it. Yes, that is a reasonable possible inteprepation, but it is not a required intepretation. I continue to beliee that Movement is movement. Friction holds things together in all dimensions, allowing grappling to hold people in all directions. In my opinion, the opposite opinion requires breaking known physical laws, which should continue to apply unless the books explicitedly state they don't.
trollbill 12-01-05, 12:54 PM	The above objections demonstrate an ignorance of dimensional geometry. I suggest you read Flatland, a great book even if you already understand the concepts involved. There is no real difference between N-S, E-W, U-D, and any other dimension. That includes Astral-Material, Ethereal-Material, or even Futrue-Past. Imagine an upright pole. Imagine my hand grabs the pole loosely (touch). My hand does not block the movement in the up-down direction, but does block the pole from being moved North-South or East-West. (Note the pole is also moving into the future at the exact same rate as my hand is) Now I tighten my grip (grapple). The friction created by my hand in the N-S and E-W dimension prevents it from moving in the U-D dimension. Now add in two more directions, Astral-Material and Etheral-Material. If sufficient force is applied to the pole, it will move and either I will let go, or the pole will carry me with it. Just as the friction of my hand prevents the pole from moving U-D, it also prevents it from moving A-M, E-M, or even F-P. If the pole tried to travel in any direction, either I hold it where it is, I let go, or the pole has to bring me with it. ---- Now assume I am wrong OK, I grab someone and attempt to teleport. Whoops, I can't hold on to them, I teleport away, leaving them behind. Guess, what, I also show up naked, my clothes does not teleport either, they are just held on my body by friction. So the ability to teleport carrying any object or other people indicates that yes, friction does hold things together in the A-M and E-M direction. Some of you are going to know say that it is the spell, not the friction that does it. Yes, that is a reasonable possible inteprepation, but it is not a required intepretation. I continue to beliee that Movement is movement. Friction holds things together in all dimensions, allowing grappling to hold people in all directions. In my opinion, the opposite opinion requires breaking known physical laws, which should continue to apply unless the books explicitedly state they don't. Which only really matters if the grappler remains in a state of 'grappled' if it becomes ethereal. Going ethereal is not an action on the part of a blinking creature. It is automatic and random. Gappling may prevent movement, but being incorporeal prevents grappling from an opponent on the material plane. Of course, the question that begs to be asked is, what if the grappler has Mage Armor cast on them? Can you initiate a grapple with an incorporeal creature if you have Mage Armor cast on you? What about Bracers of Armor?
PlaidViking 12-01-05, 01:32 PM	The above objections demonstrate an ignorance of dimensional geometry. I suggest you read Flatland, a great book even if you already understand the concepts involved. There is no real difference between N-S, E-W, U-D, and any other dimension. That includes Astral-Material, Ethereal-Material, or even Futrue-Past. Imagine an upright pole. Imagine my hand grabs the pole loosely (touch). My hand does not block the movement in the up-down direction, but does block the pole from being moved North-South or East-West. (Note the pole is also moving into the future at the exact same rate as my hand is) Now I tighten my grip (grapple). The friction created by my hand in the N-S and E-W dimension prevents it from moving in the U-D dimension. Now add in two more directions, Astral-Material and Etheral-Material. If sufficient force is applied to the pole, it will move and either I will let go, or the pole will carry me with it. Just as the friction of my hand prevents the pole from moving U-D, it also prevents it from moving A-M, E-M, or even F-P. If the pole tried to travel in any direction, either I hold it where it is, I let go, or the pole has to bring me with it. ---- Now assume I am wrong OK, I grab someone and attempt to teleport. Whoops, I can't hold on to them, I teleport away, leaving them behind. Guess, what, I also show up naked, my clothes does not teleport either, they are just held on my body by friction. So the ability to teleport carrying any object or other people indicates that yes, friction does hold things together in the A-M and E-M direction. Some of you are going to know say that it is the spell, not the friction that does it. Yes, that is a reasonable possible inteprepation, but it is not a required intepretation. I continue to beliee that Movement is movement. Friction holds things together in all dimensions, allowing grappling to hold people in all directions. In my opinion, the opposite opinion requires breaking known physical laws, which should continue to apply unless the books explicitedly state they don't. So out of curiosity could you dimension door out of a grapple then, because you're travelling via the astral plane? Basically if you can d-door out of a grapple then you can blink out of a grapple.
trollbill 12-01-05, 02:26 PM	There is another interpretation available. The answer depends not on what the spell Blink says, nor on what you can do while ethereal. Instead it depends on how you read the "Move" in the Grapple section You can use the "Movement is movement, no matter how you do it" rule. You can't move in a grapple without winning a grapple check. It does not say "you can't move in the normal 3 directions without winning a grapple check" Therefore: While Grappling, just as it is impossible to move in the North-South direction, and it is impossible to move in the West-East direction, and it is impossible to move in the Up-Down (Fly) direction, it is also impoossible to move in the Ethereal-Material plane (Blink) direction, and the Astral-Material plane (Teleportation), without first winning an opposed grapple check. In other words, even if you cast the blink spell, by grappling I can physically hold you in this plane, preventing you from going ethereal, and therefore you never blink. This interpreation is just as valid/core as the more common "planar travel is not movement" idea. I personally use the "movement is movement", finding "planar travel is not movement" to indicate ignorance of the meanings of the words "Dimension", "Travel", "Planar", and "movement". If you go by this broad a definition of "movement" then you must also assume that grappling prevents movement within the 4th Dimension, as well, i.e. a grappled creature cannot move through time. Grappling produces stasis.
mvincent 12-01-05, 02:31 PM	So out of curiosity could you dimension door out of a grapple then, because you're travelling via the astral plane? Basically if you can d-door out of a grapple then you can blink out of a grapple.Yes. You can dimension door out of a grapple. tarkins explanation seems contrary to established instances of D&D Planar travel (and not well thought out).
rironin 12-01-05, 03:39 PM	The above objections demonstrate an ignorance of dimensional geometry. I suggest you read Flatland, a great book even if you already understand the concepts involved. There is no real difference between N-S, E-W, U-D, and any other dimension. That includes Astral-Material, Ethereal-Material, or even Futrue-Past. Imagine an upright pole. Imagine my hand grabs the pole loosely (touch). My hand does not block the movement in the up-down direction, but does block the pole from being moved North-South or East-West. (Note the pole is also moving into the future at the exact same rate as my hand is) Now I tighten my grip (grapple). The friction created by my hand in the N-S and E-W dimension prevents it from moving in the U-D dimension. Now add in two more directions, Astral-Material and Etheral-Material. If sufficient force is applied to the pole, it will move and either I will let go, or the pole will carry me with it. Just as the friction of my hand prevents the pole from moving U-D, it also prevents it from moving A-M, E-M, or even F-P. If the pole tried to travel in any direction, either I hold it where it is, I let go, or the pole has to bring me with it. ---- Now assume I am wrong OK, I grab someone and attempt to teleport. Whoops, I can't hold on to them, I teleport away, leaving them behind. Guess, what, I also show up naked, my clothes does not teleport either, they are just held on my body by friction. So the ability to teleport carrying any object or other people indicates that yes, friction does hold things together in the A-M and E-M direction. Some of you are going to know say that it is the spell, not the friction that does it. Yes, that is a reasonable possible inteprepation, but it is not a required intepretation. I continue to beliee that Movement is movement. Friction holds things together in all dimensions, allowing grappling to hold people in all directions. In my opinion, the opposite opinion requires breaking known physical laws, which should continue to apply unless the books explicitedly state they don't. Very interesting interpretation... but I have trouble imagining it. I mean... using your pole example... which could just as easily be, say, a humanoid's arm, and you're grappling them... the pole/person couldn't move in the north/south/east/west directions because your hands are wrapped around the arm - so their movement in those directions is physically blocked - your hand interposes. And they/the pole can't go up or down, because you're squeezing tightly, so that your forces in x/z directions (N/S/E/W) give rise to frictional forces in the y direction (U/D) when the pole attempts to slide up or down. So they can't move in the cardinal directions because your hands are in the way, pushing back, and they can't go up or down because your hands are applying a force perpendicular to the motion up or down (giving rise to friction when the pole/person tries to leave). But when someone moves on this ethereal axis... in the direction of the ethereal plane, I suppose... how would the grappler oppose this motion? I mean, if you want to say that there's these dimensional axes like the A-M and E-M that's fine, but to give rise to friction you're going to have to apply a force perpendicular to that axis, or to block the person from moving along that axis by somehow getting in the way... but how does a wholly material-plane creature interpose along this axis, or apply forces perpendicular to this direction? As a person goes Astral or Ethereal, they move in the direction of the chosen plane along this A-M or E-M axis, if I read your post correctly... but where is it? And how can a paltry, 4th dimensional material plane creature, no matter how hard it squeezes, possibly squeeze the right way to prevent movement along these axes you speak of? It's an interesting concept, but I don't see how a material plane grappler can restrict movement in anything but the dimensions that comprise the material plane. The idea that friction prevents such movement doesn't really make sense from a physics standpoint, if you assume that the movement from material to ethereal/other planes is movement along some extradimensional axis that exists alongside the x, y, and z, as you say. The person grappling would have to have some influence or presence or relationship to the axis/plane in question in order to exert such forces. If the grappler did have some sort of presence or ability to move along or even exist with such an axis itself, then it would be a different story. Also, I am not sure how to imagine movement into the Ethereal Plane as movement along an axis. It seems more of a binary shift - from material to ethereal - rather than movement along an axis. The way it's described it seems as if it's a scale of some sort, with Material at one end and Ethereal at the other. I could envision this extra axis you're talking about as a planar axis in addition to x, y, and z ( and time ) where you can only be at a fixed number of points along the axis - as if it were a numbered axis and you could only exist at 0, 1, 2, 3, etc (where 0 is the material plane, 1 the ethereal, and so on) - that way you only exist in either one or the other at any given time, and no matter which number/layer you're on you still have movement in the x, y, z directions as well as time, which seems to fit in well with most of the planes described in the D&D world. Do you really force wizards and the like to succeed on grapple checks in order to move extradimensionally, even after they get the spell off successfully? That seems awfully mean. Also, if physical objects can prevent planar travel, what's the point of a Planar Binding spell (if there is one - memory is somewhat hazy here - but there are all sorts of things related to keeping demons and the like trapped on a certain plane, are there not?)? D&D certainly seems to support the idea that planar travel takes exception to most physical material obstructions. If you go by this broad a definition of "movement" then you must also assume that grappling prevents movement within the 4th Dimension, as well, i.e. a grappled creature cannot move through time. Grappling produces stasis. Actually, I think Tarkin's explanation holds up on that point - under normal circumstances, both grapplers would be moving through time at the exact same rate, so there would be no temporal tug, so to speak. However, it also belies the problems with the explanation - your simple Dire Bear, for instance, is excellent at grappling on the material plane in 3 dimensions, and can hold you quite tightly, but the bear really doesn't have the option to come to a temporal halt and tug you through time with its claws. Its physical grapple just can't pull or push or stop on that axis. The bear has no ability to change its rate of travel through time, and usually, neither does the person it's grappling, so you both cruise along together. Of course, your average Dire Bear does not possess the ability to change its rate of travel along some hypothetical Ethereal/Material axis (its rate of travel on this axis would be zero I suppose, leaving it firmly rooted in the material plane until some other magic causes otherwise) either, so it reinforces the argument above that the bear couldn't hold you in the material plane by simply grappling really hard.
jaxpur 12-02-05, 01:27 AM	The above objections demonstrate an ignorance of dimensional geometry. I suggest you read Flatland, a great book even if you already understand the concepts involved. .... In my opinion, the opposite opinion requires breaking known physical laws, which should continue to apply unless the books explicitedly state they don't. In Flatland there are no physical laws describing a third spatial dimension. If you want to add a new Etheral dimension to your Flatland, there are many options open to you, including how 2D friction affects (or doesn't) movement in this new dimension. The "argument" that friction is what keeps the clothes on your back when you teleport or blink is... weak. In my interpretation, if Jack is blinking and Jill holds his hand, she neither blinks with him nor prevents him from blinking. If Jack is manacled to a wall, he can blink himself free. Likewise no grappler can bind him to the material plane any more than being swallowed whole can.
kSquared 12-02-05, 08:15 PM	Actually, I think Tarkin's explanation holds up on that point - under normal circumstances, both grapplers would be moving through time at the exact same rate, so there would be no temporal tug, so to speak. Imagine a monk grappling an epic wizard who has a quickened stilled time stop prepared. Does the monk prevent the spell from taking effect because he's "dragging" the wizard back to normal time speed? That's quite a stretch.
Vanigo 12-03-05, 12:16 AM	Mind if I reiterate? It doesn't matter whether teleportation is movement or not. Grappling does not restrict all movement. It only restricts normal movement, and teleportation isn't normal movement no matter how you slice it.
Ogre4Hire 12-03-05, 01:24 AM	Just how often does Nightcrawler BAMF his way out of being held down? Seriously, grappling monsters are overpowered enough without giving them the ability to Dimension Anchor whatever they grab.
rironin 12-03-05, 02:19 AM	Imagine a monk grappling an epic wizard who has a quickened stilled time stop prepared. Does the monk prevent the spell from taking effect because he's "dragging" the wizard back to normal time speed? That's quite a stretch. According to tarkin's explanation, I believe that yes, the physical grapple could cause the monk and the wizard to "stick together" via friction. Tarkin suggested that friction extended to dimensions such as time and presence in the Ethereal plane, and could prevent someone from traveling through it. I disagree completely and do not use rules like this in D&D. I was just trying to apply tarkin's theory to the situation trollbill brought up. Trollbill believed that according to tarkin's rules, grappling would cause time to stop for both grapplers. I disagreed, saying that according to my interpretation of tarkin's theory, the two grapplers would be linked or stuck together in dimensions like time and plane, but not necessarily stopped in either one. Since under normal circumstances (i.e. when no time altering spells are being cast) both grapplers are moving through time at the same rate together, I don't think that grappling would stop time or alter it for either combatant. If the wizard in your example cast time stop, however, then tarkin's rules seem to suggest that either the wizard will be held in the monk's rate of travel through time (and the spell will fail) or that the wizard will drag the monk with him (because they are held together via friction) and, I suppose, the monk would be affected by the time stop as well. Tarkin wasn't clear on which would happen, although he seemed to be saying that whoever was maintaining the grapple had the ability to keep their opponent stuck to them rather than getting carried along when the opponent altered time/plane. I definitely do not agree with tarkin's theory as something to actually apply to D&D - I don't think it makes sense mechanically or physically (tarkin's main selling point). I agree with trollbill that tarkin's theory doesn't seem to hold water, but I was just nitpicking trollbill's theory on why. =)
MindWandererB 12-03-05, 02:35 AM	By that interpretation, any number of creatures could benefit from teleport and its kin just by hugging each other real tight. Which is directly contradictory with the limits of the spell as written. Clearly teleporation effects, and by extension similar effects like time stop, do not extend to touched creatures unless explicitly mentioned. While the logic about clothes and equipment is impeccable, carried gear is by necessity the great unspoken in D&D magical logic. Why does a disintegrate spell destroy your hair but not your leather armor? There is no logical, physical explanation-you could come up with some crap about a bioelectrical field (like how some people explain how Superman's clothes are bulletproof), but that's grasping at straws. Gear is special in D&D and plays by its own rules. Live with it.
Vanigo 12-03-05, 04:25 PM	While the logic about clothes and equipment is impeccable... Not really. Dimension door and teleport explicitly state that you take your equipment with you. (Well, touched objects weighing no more than your maximum load, but let's not split hairs.) No friction needed; it's just part of the spell. I suppose you could say that you're only touching your clothes and whatever's in your hands, so anything over your clothes would be left behind, but by that logic you couldn't cast touch range spells while wearing gloves.